Travelling with out of date railcard

[lavenderhaze]

Hi,

In October last year, I was stopped by a revenue protection officer on a Greater Anglia train from London to Stansted.

My ticket was checked, and it was discovered that my railcard (which I had bought my ticket with) was 9 days out of date.

On the spot, I offered to buy another ticket or purchase another railcard through trainline, but was shouted at by the revenue protection officer, who yelled 'stop right now, it's too late.'

I was incredibly intimidated by their behaviour, and allowed them to take my details. I was travelling home to accompany a very ill family member have a difficult round of chemo, and really wasn't in a good place. I wish now that I'd fought harder.

Months later, I received an offer for an out of court settlement of £100.

I was advised by a Greater Anglia customer service rep that I could file an appeal, and that my fine would not increase while my appeal was dealt with. I filed an appeal with IRCAS, and received no response. 14 days passed, and I then received notice that the fine had increased to £187, and that the next stage was court.

I have now paid the fine, but just contacted IRCAS to find out what became of my appeal. Apparently it was missed, and was not dealt with. They are now looking at my appeal, and will get back to me in the next 5 days.

My questions are:

- What was to stop me from purchasing a new valid ticket or rail card on the spot?
- Could IRCAS missing my appeal help me in any way?
- Do I have grounds for complaint? Frankly, I'm mystified about why my case immediately resulted in a prosecution, and not a penalty fare, or even the opportunity to purchase a new ticket — it was a very obvious genuine mistake. This ordeal has made a very difficult time for me even more difficult.

I would love any thoughts and advice from the community. Prosecuting passengers who have made very clear genuine mistakes is an incredibly aggressive way to deal with your customer body.

Thank you in advance!

 

[Haywain]

I wish now that I'd fought harder.

It wouldn't have helped.

Months later, I received an offer for an out of court settlement of £100.

This is very important - what you received was a settlement offer, not a Penalty Fare. A Penalty Fare would have to be issued on the spot.

I was advised by a Greater Anglia customer service rep that I could file an appeal, and that my fine would not increase while my appeal was dealt with. I filed an appeal with IRCAS, and received no response. 14 days passed, and I then received notice that the fine had increased to £187, and that the next stage was court.

The customer service rep gave you advice relating to a Penalty Fare, but this isn't what was issued to you so it is not relevant.

I have now paid the fine, but just contacted IRCAS to find out what became of my appeal.

As you were not issued a Penalty Fare, this isn't relevant and IRCAs are not involved at any stage, other then perhaps to take payment.

What was to stop me from purchasing a new valid ticket or rail card on the spot?

Nothing at all, but it would not have validated your ticket. You are required to have the railcard at the start of your journey, not just at the end.

Could IRCAS missing my appeal help me in any way?

No, as explained above.

Do I have grounds for complaint?

Perhaps for the incorrect advice you were given, but nothing more.

Prosecuting passengers who have made very clear genuine mistakes is an incredibly aggressive way to deal with your customer body.

Welcome to the railway. However, please be aware that out of date railcards are astonishingly common, from what we see here, and that can be from a few days to a few years. How the railway pick out the genuine from the chancers is something of a puzzle.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi,

In October last year, I was stopped by a revenue protection officer on a Greater Anglia train from London to Stansted.

My ticket was checked, and it was discovered that my railcard (which I had bought my ticket with) was 9 days out of date.

On the spot, I offered to buy another ticket or purchase another railcard through trainline, but was shouted at by the revenue protection officer, who yelled 'stop right now, it's too late.'

I was incredibly intimidated by their behaviour, and allowed them to take my details. I was travelling home to accompany a very ill family member have a difficult round of chemo, and really wasn't in a good place. I wish now that I'd fought harder.

Months later, I received an offer for an out of court settlement of £100.

I was advised by a Greater Anglia customer service rep that I could file an appeal, and that my fine would not increase while my appeal was dealt with. I filed an appeal with IRCAS, and received no response. 14 days passed, and I then received notice that the fine had increased to £187, and that the next stage was court.

I have now paid the fine, but just contacted IRCAS to find out what became of my appeal. Apparently it was missed, and was not dealt with. They are now looking at my appeal, and will get back to me in the next 5 days.

My questions are:

- What was to stop me from purchasing a new valid ticket or rail card on the spot?
- Could IRCAS missing my appeal help me in any way?
- Do I have grounds for complaint? Frankly, I'm mystified about why my case immediately resulted in a prosecution, and not a penalty fare, or even the opportunity to purchase a new ticket — it was a very obvious genuine mistake. This ordeal has made a very difficult time for me even more difficult.

I would love any thoughts and advice from the community. Prosecuting passengers who have made very clear genuine mistakes is an incredibly aggressive way to deal with your customer body.

Thank you in advance!

Hi Sadly it looks to me like you were mislead by Anglia Customer services (or what you said to them about the incident lead them to mislead you in their answer to you) - in that what they told you applies to Penalty Fares (which have a right of Appeal) but I suspect you were never issued with a Penalty Fare - you were reported for investigation about the ticked bought with the expired Railcard discount - and then offered a settlement to resolve the situation - which is a payment you make in exchange for which they do not take the matter further - ie to court.

Such out of court settlements have no right of Appeal - the only option with them is to turn down the offer and try your luck in front of the magistrates at the court (almost always a bad idea since you would not have ben able to prove that your Railcard was in fact valid on the date of travel, and you admit that it wasn't).

If you would like to upload an anonymised copy of the letter you were sent (and or any other letters or paperwork) people here can double check that this is correct and it was not a Penalty Fare.

I suspect the best advice now is to pay the £187 demanded as quickly as possible*. You could then perhaps pursue the issue with Customer Services as to why them misleading you about the Penalty Fare appeal has caused you to have to pay an extra £87 - but there would be issues about what you actually asked Customer Services in the first place I fear.

I should ask if there is anything in the letter you originally received to lead you to believe that you had a right to any sort of Appeal?

What prompted you to ring Customer Services?

The reason they often seem not to issue Penalty Fares for expired Railcards is that they want the back office team to check if there is any records of other travels you have undertaken with a railcard discounted ticket after your railcard has expired, so they can charge people for those fares too. So I suspect this was a reason you did not get issued with a Penalty Fare when your ticket was checked.

Sorry not to be able to convey any advice that can help reduce the sum asked for, but you do need to prevent this escalating to court because if it does you will be found guilty and the court fine and costs will be more than £187 and you will also have a criminal record.

*edit - apols - I see you say you have in fact already paid

 

[greyman42]

On the spot, I offered to buy another ticket or purchase another railcard through trainline, but was shouted at by the revenue protection officer, who yelled 'stop right now, it's too late.'

Is there any need for the RPI to carry on like this?

 

[AlterEgo]

Is there any need for the RPI to carry on like this?

Depends what was said and in what tone, but they had already decided at this stage to write the customer up, preventing them from buying a new ticket saved them money.

 

[greyman42]

Depends what was said and in what tone, but they had already decided at this stage to write the customer up, preventing them from buying a new ticket saved them money.

The OP said they were shouted at so that would give us an idea about the tone.

 

[Titfield]

The OP said they were shouted at so that would give us an idea about the tone.

But that of course is the OPs account of the event. As is often said in here there are three versions of every event.

 

[greyman42]

But that of course is the OPs account of the event. As is often said in here there are three versions of every event.

Then perhaps the OP can inform us as to whether their manner was civil or not?

 

[AlterEgo]

Then perhaps the OP can inform us as to whether their manner was civil or not?

One thing I can absolutely attest to, from carrying a video camera on my travels and then having to edit the raw footage, is how different one's actions often seem when viewed from the outside. There's nothing like having to edit out a few interactions where you seem terse or insincere, or perhaps a laugh that sounds fake - despite you remembering them as good humoured - to bring home the fact that there are multiple interpretations of even the most banal incident. There's little point us Monday morning quarterbacking a second hand account of an RPI's demeanour when it is irrelevant to the help the OP needs.

 

[fandroid]

One thing I can absolutely attest to, from carrying a video camera on my travels and then having to edit the raw footage, is how different one's actions often seem when viewed from the outside. There's nothing like having to edit out a few interactions where you seem terse or insincere, or perhaps a laugh that sounds fake - despite you remembering them as good humoured - to bring home the fact that there are multiple interpretations of even the most banal incident. There's little point us Monday morning quarterbacking a second hand account of an RPI's demeanour when it is irrelevant to the help the OP needs.

But it would serve the railway and all who travel on it, if RPIs were trained to always come across as calm and conciliatory, no matter what they felt personally about the situation. To come across as shouty is to fail at the first hurdle

 

[Titfield]

Customer Facing Staff are trained in interpersonal skills and techniques such as conflict de-escalation. When staff are recruited the recruiters look for calm personality traits but those staff must also have backbone and enforce the rules and regulations.

The challenge / problem will always be that one persons firm word is another persons being shouted at. Given that sometimes carriage environments can be noisy pitching the correct volume of speech will undoubtedly be an issue.

I have travelled on SWR and GA a great many times over the years and i have always been treated courteously and with respect. Equally I have seen RPIs being robust with individuals travelling without tickets as well as being firm but fair with passengers with advance tickets on trains other than the one they were booked to travel on.

I still believe that a simpler ticketing system will result in far fewer "genuine mistakes" and enable the RPIs to focus on fare evaders.

Judging by what we see on this forum, the differing railcard discounts and out of date rail cards make up quite a % of issues. This is an area the railway needs to tackle.

 

[island]

Judging by what we see on this forum, the differing railcard discounts and out of date rail cards make up quite a % of issues. This is an area the railway needs to tackle.

How and why does the railway need to "tackle" these things?

 

[Hadders]

Can we make sure that posts in this thread are kept on-topic which is to help to OP. Discussion about staff training, simplifying the ticketing system etc is for separate threads.

As pointed out upthread, although a Penalty Fare could've been issued in this case we are increasingly seeing train companies take passenger details so that checks of online ticket accounts can be made to see if other tickets have been purchased when no valid railcard was held.

Legally the law requires passengers to hold a valid ticket when they board the train (there are a handful of exceptions but they won't apply to this case). However inadvertently, legally speaking, the OP did not possess a valid ticket when they boarded the train which is a criminal offence. Unfortunaetly ourchasinga new ticket or railcard once the after boarding does not change this.

It seems as though teh OP was offered an out of court settlement, which the OP believed they could appeal. I believe they have been misadvised by Greater Anglia customer services, although it is difficult to know exactly what was said. How did the OP appeal? Was this in writing and to whom?

We could really do with seeing copies of the letters that have been sent in this case to be able to advise properly. As things currently stand I would pay what is being asked to keep the matter out of court.

 

[Brissle Girl]

I agree that without seeing the copy of the settlement offer it is difficult to know whether the OP followed any instructions there in terms of future communication and response.

For example, if it made it clear that any response or query needed to be referred back to the same office then I would suggest that in that scenario they would need to bear at least some responsibility for not following that instruction, and thus getting inappropriate advice.

 

[lavenderhaze]

Thank you so much for the useful advice so far, everyone! You're all very helpful

Here's a copy of the first letter I received from GA.

I can see that this is an out of court settlement, not a penalty fare — so it looks like the advice I was given was incorrect. However, I'm pretty sure the language I used on the phone to the customer service rep was probably something like 'fine', so I really can't blame them for giving me advice related to a penalty fare. I can see this is on me for not being clear enough about the initial letter I received.

What prompted you to ring Customer Services?

I called the phone number at the top of the letter multiple times over several days and no one ever picked up! I called customer services while panicking a day before the offer for settlement expired.

I'd be delighted if Greater Anglia looked at my case and somehow decided that this misunderstanding meant I was eligible for some sort of partial refund, but it doesn't seem likely based on how punitively they've treated me so far.

Then perhaps the OP can inform us as to whether their manner was civil or not?

shouty, but i can totally see now that they might have been saving me from spending extra money on something that wouldn't actually help my case.

from a customer perspective, it is a bit bamboozling - what revenue is being meaningfully protected if the passenger re-purchases their ticket on the spot?

i do understand there's a chance i may have been making incremental savings by consistently buying railcard tickets without having a valid railcard, but a quick look at my journey history would show just how infrequently i travel. obviously rail companies can check journey histories to retroactively fine passengers — imagine if they did the same thing to get a fuller picture of the 'revenue' they're protecting before slapping hugely punitive fines on their customers?

 

[JBuchananGB]

what revenue is being meaningfully protected if the passenger re-purchases their ticket on the spot?

If it was normally possible to "re-purchase" the ticket on the spot, then the probability is that it would just become the norm for punters never to buy a proper ticket, until they met an inspector, and then they'd buy the ticket. This is why the RPIs almost never just sell a ticket. They will either issue a Penalty Fare, or report for process. This action is a deterrent to the idea of travelling without a valid ticket.

 

[ChewChewTrain]

Not that this is really helpful to the OP at this stage, but doesn’t one need a valid Penalty Fare reference number in order to file an appeal? Shouldn’t the fact that the OP didn’t possess one have stopped the appeal being accepted, thus (with any luck) tipping them off that they weren’t given a Penalty Fare at all?

 

[lavenderhaze]

Not that this is really helpful to the OP at this stage, but doesn’t one need a valid Penalty Fare reference number in order to file an appeal? Shouldn’t the fact that the OP didn’t possess one have stopped the appeal being accepted, thus (with any luck) tipping them off that they weren’t given a Penalty Fare at all?

I was able to fill out the appeal form on the IRCAS website using the reference number on the out of court settlement - the form system may not check the numbers are valid?