Trident

[ainsworth74]

So we agree we need to keep Trident.

Of course, I voted in favour on the poll

Be nice if we had the capability to make our own warheads though.

We do. The warheads are built by the Atomic Weapons Establishment in Aldermaston.

 

[miami]

Right, so we can build the submarines and the warheads, but not the missiles?

 

[Groningen]

That slogan on that red referendumcoach should have been: We send the EU 350 million a week; lets fund our Trident instead.

 

[ainsworth74]

Right, so we can build the submarines and the warheads, but not the missiles?

Pretty much and to be honest, at this point, that is the hard part. Warheads are child's play once you've got fissile material and a thorough understanding of the physics involved whilst we've been building nuclear submarines now since the 1960s (though due to Government incompetence in the 1990s we hit a very rocky patch and needed US help to get is back to fully functioning). We've not developed long range missiles since the 1950s and even then it never properly entered service and was a quite simple compared to the complex marvel that is a Trident missile.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

For our purposes yes. Trident uses GPS to achieve pin point accuracy which the US requires to enable them to destroy heavily protected bunkers and ballistic missile silos.

If the US turned GPS off, wouldn't that render their own Tridents useless as well?

 

[ainsworth74]

If the US turned GPS off, wouldn't that render their own Tridents useless as well?

You only need GPS if you need to land a warhead within a couple of dozen meters of the target which, when you're trying to destroy facilities hardened against nuclear blasts, you need to do (unless you use some monster multi-megaton warheads but not many of those still exist and they never existed on the top of Trident) . To destroy cities landing with a mile or two is sufficient. So it would make Trident far less effective against hardened targets but against cities it wouldn't matter.

 

[TheKnightWho]

If the US turned GPS off, wouldn't that render their own Tridents useless as well?

Nearly all GPS chips are designed to cease functioning if they go above a certain speed or above a certain height, so that they can't be used to guide missiles. If the Americans decided not to sell us the chips with this restriction lifted, it would hurt us but not them.

Interestingly, the restriction is currently one or the other, which has become a problem for very high altitude weather balloons in recent years. Apparently they're thinking of changing such that the chips shut down only if they're going very fast and are very high.

 

[asylumxl]

Nearly all GPS chips are designed to cease functioning if they go above a certain speed or above a certain height, so that they can't be used to guide missiles. If the Americans decided not to sell us the chips with this restriction lifted, it would hurt us but not them.

Interestingly, the restriction is currently one or the other, which has become a problem for very high altitude weather balloons in recent years. Apparently they're thinking of changing such that the chips shut down only if they're going very fast and are very high.

Other countries have placed or begun placing their own satellites in orbit and newer receiver chips support these satellites, so I imagine it wouldn't be impossible to circumvent the restrictions on "GPS".

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Other countries have placed or begun placing their own satellites in orbit and newer receiver chips support these satellites, so I imagine it wouldn't be impossible to circumvent the restrictions on "GPS".

Could we put Galileo chips in our Tridents, or is Trident contractually tied to using GPS?

 

[asylumxl]

Could we put Galileo chips in our Tridents, or is Trident contractually tied to using GPS?

I don't know. I imagine the fine details of terms are classified.

The Chinese also have started launching their own system too, called BeiDou.

 

[Phil.]

Could we put Galileo chips in our Tridents, or is Trident contractually tied to using GPS?

But as we're leaving the EU won't they stop us being able to play with Galileo?

 

[Domh245]

But as we're leaving the EU won't they stop us being able to play with Galileo?

We should still be able to access it through ESA (which I think we'll remain a part of, ESA not being part of the EU). Ukraine and Moroco also have access to it, so we should be able to negotiate access as a last resort. Certainly there would be a sense of obligation given the amount of parts we provided

 

[asylumxl]

We should still be able to access it through ESA (which I think we'll remain a part of, ESA not being part of the EU). Ukraine and Moroco also have access to it, so we should be able to negotiate access as a last resort. Certainly there would be a sense of obligation given the amount of parts we provided

Or we can use BeiDou. After all, the current government seems quite keen on working with the Chinese government.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Or we can use BeiDou. After all, the current government seems quite keen on working with the Chinese government.

That's a joke, right?! Chinese navigational stuff on UK nuclear missiles of USA manufacture?

 

[asylumxl]

That's a joke, right?! Chinese navigational stuff on UK nuclear missiles of USA manufacture?

I consider it more satirical than anything :P.

 

[ainsworth74]

Not that there is any need to worry about any of this as we don't need the precision that satellite navigation can give

 

[asylumxl]

Not that there is any need to worry about any of this as we don't need the precision that satellite navigation can give

As long as Apple Maps isn't used to obtain target coordinates, it should be pretty accurate anyway. Usually within 10m.

 

[Busaholic]

I would guess that part of the reason why Jeremy Corbyn is so opposed to our nuclear deterrent is that he can, like me, remember the time in 1961 when it seemed not just possible, but highly likely, that both the USSR and the USA would push the button, one after the other, and that even if only one did it the effects on the whole world would be catastrophic. I was 13 at the time, Corbyn would have been 12, and the fear was very genuine. If people like Putin or Trump had been in charge at the time then we would not be here on this forum now.

 

[furnessvale]

I would guess that part of the reason why Jeremy Corbyn is so opposed to our nuclear deterrent is that he can, like me, remember the time in 1961 when it seemed not just possible, but highly likely, that both the USSR and the USA would push the button, one after the other, and that even if only one did it the effects on the whole world would be catastrophic. I was 13 at the time, Corbyn would have been 12, and the fear was very genuine. If people like Putin or Trump had been in charge at the time then we would not be here on this forum now.

No, the reason that the button was not pushed was that BOTH sides had nuclear weapons.

If Corbyn thinks that a UK without nuclear weapons would have more bargaining power he is seriously deluded.

 

[asylumxl]

No, the reason that the button was not pushed was that BOTH sides had nuclear weapons.

If Corbyn thinks that a UK without nuclear weapons would have more bargaining power he is seriously deluded.

Out of interest, how old are you?

I personally did not experience the Cold War and can only base my opinion on the historical information available, but I would be interested to know the age demographic of people from both sides of the fence on this forum.

 

[Harbornite]

I would guess that part of the reason why Jeremy Corbyn is so opposed to our nuclear deterrent is that he can, like me, remember the time in 1961 when it seemed not just possible, but highly likely, that both the USSR and the USA would push the button, one after the other, and that even if only one did it the effects on the whole world would be catastrophic. I was 13 at the time, Corbyn would have been 12, and the fear was very genuine. If people like Putin or Trump had been in charge at the time then we would not be here on this forum now.

1962 surely?

 

[furnessvale]

Out of interest, how old are you?

Looking at busoholic's post I believe we are both the same age, circa 68.

 

[asylumxl]

Looking at busoholic's post I believe we are both the same age, circa 68.

Interesting. I'm just intrigued by the different opinions expressed by people of a similar age, whom will have been about when nuclear war was a realistic possibility.

 

[fowler9]

Interesting. I'm just intrigued by the different opinions expressed by people of a similar age, whom will have been about when nuclear war was a realistic possibility.

The film Threads came out in 1984 and Nuclear War seemed a possibility to me and my classmates at school then. Wargames came out in 1983. It all seemed very real. I think it said at the end that "The only way to win is not to play". It is all very sad.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I personally did not experience the Cold War and can only base my opinion on the historical information available, but I would be interested to know the age demographic of people from both sides of the fence on this forum.

Did you read my posting # 72 on the thread. I was just starting my very first year at Manchester University at the time and as such, actually lived through the Cuba missile crisis at a similar age to the ages of many of the members of this website, at that period of time in 1962.

 

[furnessvale]

Interesting. I'm just intrigued by the different opinions expressed by people of a similar age, whom will have been about when nuclear war was a realistic possibility.

The point is, they are all OPINIONS. No one will ever know what would have happened if only one side had nuclear weapons but we do know what happened when both sides did.

I, for one, am glad we never found out and I am not willing to test the hypothesis by unilaterally destroying ours.

 

[asylumxl]

The point is, they are all OPINIONS. No one will ever know what would have happened if only one side had nuclear weapons but we do know what happened when both sides did.

I, for one, am glad we never found out and I am not willing to test the hypothesis by unilaterally destroying ours.

I don't know why you're taking that tone. I wasn't asking in the context of the Trident programme. There is no right or wrong opinion, I was simply just intrigued to see how opinions differed for people of your generation.
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Did you read my posting # 72 on the thread. I was just starting my very first year at Manchester University at the time and as such, actually lived through the Cuba missile crisis at a similar age to the ages of many of the members of this website, at that period of time in 1962.

Yes I did. That's why I was intrigued to know the age of other members and see how their opinion differed .

 

[furnessvale]

I don't know why you're taking that tone. I wasn't asking in the context of the Trident programme. There is no right or wrong opinion, I was simply just intrigued to see how opinions differed for people of your generation.
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Didn't realise i was taking a tone. We are discusing Trident and this is my opinion.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

The film Threads came out in 1984 and Nuclear War seemed a possibility to me and my classmates at school then. Wargames came out in 1983. It all seemed very real. I think it said at the end that "The only way to win is not to play". It is all very sad.

I remember watching 'Threads' in that year, set in Sheffield, I think - totally disturbing, I recall stepping outside my house at the time when it finished just to see that everything was normal. Was 'Wargames' the American equivalent? 'Threads' was far more shocking to me, probably as it was closer to home.

 

[fowler9]

I remember watching 'Threads' in that year, set in Sheffield, I think - totally disturbing, I recall stepping outside my house at the time when it finished just to see that everything was normal. Was 'Wargames' the American equivalent? 'Threads' was far more shocking to me, probably as it was closer to home.

Wargames wasn't the same as Threads but it did play on peoples fears of nuclear war though. Basically about an American super computer that nearly starts WW3 by accident.