Triple system electric rolling stock?

[Holly]

In another thread (Infrastructure) I mentioned the line still in place from New Ferry to Birkenhead docks.

And then in a dream imagined boat trains to the 12 Quays Irish ferry terminal at Birkenhead.

The suggested electrification from Crewe to Chester (is this more than a trainspotters pipe-dream?) could affect this. But proposals for the Birkenhead docks lines have included 750vDC overhead electrification to the proposed Wirral Waters residential development that is (somewhat) compatible with the historic trams and off-the-shelf light-rail. Of course Wirral Waters residential development may itself be a pipe-dream.

But it set me wondering - is there such a thing in existence as rolling stock that will operate on all three common electrification systems - 25kvAC OHLE, 750vDC-third-rail and 750vDC-overhead? Or are we talking about a difficult special build?

 

[Hydro]

Triple voltage locomotives are in use on the continent, and even quadruple voltage locos. The Eurostars used to work on 750v DC, 25kV AC, and 3kV DC (?) in Belgium.

It's possible but would probably need a new build. The only thing I could imagine off the top of my head would be a 92 with feed into the 750 side of the system from the pan.

 

[Dreadnought]

The Eurostars used to work on 750v DC, 25kV AC, and 3kV DC (?) in Belgium.

There are a number of French Eurostar sets that are equipped for 25kV AC, 3000V DC and 1500V DC according to the P5 book.

 

[Nym]

If one's AC and the other's DC, it would be easy to get it though the same pantograph with a simple shunt circuit (Low pass filter)

 

[ChrisCooper]

You'd probably want a second pan, something more beefy for the 750v (as lower voltage means higher current). Might not be such a problem on Freight locos as they would only be travelling at fairly low speed on 25kV, but anything travelling at high speeds needs two pans as a heavy low voltage pan won't work well at high speed on lightweight 25kV overhead. Of cource you'd also need much more heavy duty OHLE and feeder stations than for light rail due to the higher currents.
I often think a lower voltage (perhaps 1500v or 3000v) would be a good option for secondary line electrification, being cheaper to install and more substantial (and therefore less likely to fall down in the slightest breeze) compared to 25kV, but without a major disadvantage in terms of power loss on lines which at most see 2-4 car trains at 100mph max. Yes the UK lags well behind many other countries on electrification, but a large amount of that is lower voltage (off the high speed lines, the majority of the French network is 1500v, Belgium is 3000v etc). The UK is the only country that insists on electrifying everything at 25kV.

 

[Holly]

You'd probably want a second pan, something more beefy for the 750v (as lower voltage means higher current). Might not be such a problem on Freight locos as they would only be travelling at fairly low speed on 25kV, but anything travelling at high speeds needs two pans as a heavy low voltage pan won't work well at high speed on lightweight 25kV overhead. Of cource you'd also need much more heavy duty OHLE and feeder stations than for light rail due to the higher currents. I often think a lower voltage (perhaps 1500v or 3000v) would be a good option for secondary line electrification, being cheaper ... The UK is the only country that insists on electrifying everything at 25kV.

Of course there is 750vDC overhead in the UK, such as Altrincham-Manchester (used to be 25kvAC and tragically got downgraded).

But in the context of Birkenhead docks, I was thinking of the last half mile from Cleveland Street to the Irish Ferry at 12 Quays. You could extend third rail from New Ferry through the Haymarket tunnel, but no further.

Third rail is obviously out of the question for street running, and the Transport Museum already has 650(?) or 750 vDC wires in the path. In any case only slow speeds (20mph maximum) are required for street running a short distance to a terminus.

I suppose the alternative is to get a diesel shunter to do the last half mile. Which is probably what would happen in practice.

And yes, alternative electrification should be considered (but three systems is surely enough?). For example Wrexham-Bidston could have been researched on a basis of 750vDC overhead instead of third rail. That surely would have been be cheaper. Lack of vision on someone's part.

 

[headshot119]

But then we'd need a small fleet of bespoke EMUs just to run from Wrexham to Bidston, then they'd need third rail shoes just to be able to run to the depot each night after service. It's likely to be cheaper just to make it third rail to start with.

 

[Peter301184]

Triple voltage locomotives are in use on the continent, and even quadruple voltage locos. The Eurostars used to work on 750v DC, 25kV AC, and 3kV DC (?) in Belgium.

It's possible but would probably need a new build. The only thing I could imagine off the top of my head would be a 92 with feed into the 750 side of the system from the pan.

yup eurostars can run on;

25KV, 1500V and 3KV. They used to be able to run on 750V but the shoe gear and contactors etc have since been taken off since the eurostar doesn't run on third rail in the UK there is no need for it.

To the OP. Have you thought of the extra cost in servicing and parts and the actual size of the locomotive would have to be to run on 3 different systems. That is why the eurostar locomotive is so big.

 

[LE Greys]

yup eurostars can run on;

25KV, 1500V and 3KV. They used to be able to run on 750V but the shoe gear and contactors etc have since been taken off since the eurostar doesn't run on third rail in the UK there is no need for it.

To the OP. Have you thought of the extra cost in servicing and parts and the actual size of the locomotive would have to be to run on 3 different systems. That is why the eurostar locomotive is so big.

Aren't the 92s quad-voltage as well, so that they can operate from pretty much anywhere in Europe?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I suppose the alternative is to get a diesel shunter to do the last half mile. Which is probably what would happen in practice.

Sounds familiar.

 

[Holly]

Originally Posted by Holly
I suppose the alternative is to get a diesel shunter to do the last half mile. Which is probably what would happen in practice.

Sounds familiar.[/URL]

Actually, it would be the last full mile from Rock Ferry to 12 Quays. There is no point in electrifying part of the last mile if you can't electrify all of it.

But to return to (a variant on) there is nothing existing that can run on third rail and also on 750vDC overhead? Not even a 92?

 

[Dreadnought]

Aren't the 92s quad-voltage as well, so that they can operate from pretty much anywhere in Europe?

I did think they might be triple voltage but according to the P5 book they are only 25kV AC 50Hz overhead or 750V DC third rail.

 

[captainbigun]

Indeed, power scheme shows feed to main transformer from pan only. There's no DC route direct to the converters.

 

[es373]

I did think they might be triple voltage but according to the P5 book they are only 25kV AC 50Hz overhead or 750V DC third rail.

Kinetic envelope (Berne + in EU I think) and Track Gauge is different in the Continent on comparison with UK.

373 is a big train? Considering its capabilities Yes it is... But dont forget - it's still only a baby TGV and they are much, much bigger.

 

[Hydro]

Kinetic envelope (Berne + in EU I think) and Track Gauge is different in the Continent on comparison with UK.

Kinematic (not kinetic) envelope is the maximum physical space a train occupies when negotiating given track geometry. It's not quite what you are describing, which is loading gauge; the maximum dimensions a train can be loaded or constructed to in order not to encroach on the structure gauge (which in turn are the dimensions from the top of the railhead, to the closest point a structure is allowed to come to the track). All these things are closely related, i.e. a vehicles kinematic envelope will change depending on whether it is loaded or empty (q.v. Freightliner wagons, and also why 153's need door steps removing if they need to travel ECS on certain routes), but the loading gauge will always stay the same, i.e. the loading gauge is a measurement limit.

UK and European track gauge is the same, 1435mm, standard gauge.

 

[es373]

Okay then.... I was taught Kinetic Envelope on stock training last week.....


Also was told the track gauge is different in a few places in the EU.....


Assessor must be wrong *cough*

I know that in Russia, The gauge is 1,520mm and is the second most widely used gauge in the world.

Russia must be wrong..... *cough*....

 

[Holly]

But then we'd need a small fleet of bespoke EMUs just to run from Wrexham to Bidston, then they'd need third rail shoes just to be able to run to the depot each night after service. ...

The alternative is to run the overhead wire from Bidston to the stabling place (Birkenhead North?).
I don't think there is any engineering problem with having both 750vDC overhead and 750vDC third rail on the same track section; though I can't for the life of me think of anywhere in the world where this has been done!

Presumably the Manchester Metrolink trams could do it, though something with a better ride quality would be highly desirable!

750vDC overhead is, of course, unsuitable for freight which would have to be diesel under the wires.

 

[Hydro]

Okay then.... I was taught Kinetic Envelope on stock training last week.....
Also was told the track gauge is different in a few places in the EU.....
Assessor must be wrong *cough*

Which has what to do with TGV's and Eurostars, both 1435mm vehicles? Standard EU gauge is 1435mm, except Spain (for historical reasons), who are building new High Speed lines to 1435 because they want them to link to inter-European routes, something Iberian gauge prevents without arsing about with complex multi-gauge bogies, or bogie swaps.

I know that in Russia, The gauge is 1,520mm and is the second most widely used gauge in the world.

Russia must be wrong..... *cough*....

*cough*Russia isn't Europe*cough*.

 

[Peter301184]

theres not really much to 'teach' about kinematic envolope. There thoery of it is basic engineering understanding.

I know wikipedia doesn't hold the answeres to everything but it gives a good guide. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_gauge

As said russia isn't european lol.

 

[LE Greys]

*cough*Russia isn't Europe*cough*.

About half the Russian population lives in Europe, west of the Urals, although most of the country is east of the Urals.

Would you like a Fisherman's Friend?

 

[Peter301184]

About half the Russian population lives in Europe, west of the Urals, although most of the country is east of the Urals.

Would you like a Fisherman's Friend?

Just when you thought this thread can't 'de-rail' anymore...........

 

[Hydro]

About half the Russian population lives in Europe, west of the Urals, although most of the country is east of the Urals.

Would you like a Fisherman's Friend?

I didn't know this was a geography lesson. I thought it was clear this was relating to railway issues.

 

[Peter301184]

i didn't know this was a geography lesson. I thought it was clear this was relating to railway issues.

+1...

 

[es373]

Are you that naive you couldn't get the witty joke?...

wow you should calm down....

 

[Hydro]

Are you that naive you couldn't get the witty joke?...

wow you should calm down....

It seems your definition of "witty" seems to wildly differ from mine. Unless of course, you're using "witty" as some kind of Cockney rhyming slang...?

 

[LE Greys]

The alternative is to run the overhead wire from Bidston to the stabling place (Birkenhead North?).
I don't think there is any engineering problem with having both 750vDC overhead and 750vDC third rail on the same track section; though I can't for the life of me think of anywhere in the world where this has been done!

Presumably the Manchester Metrolink trams could do it, though something with a better ride quality would be highly desirable!

750vDC overhead is, of course, unsuitable for freight which would have to be diesel under the wires.

The only main line use of 750V d.c. overhead I can think of was Hither Green Yard, to avoid people tripping over live rails. Presumably, there was some sort of changeover point at the reception sidings.

 

[Hydro]

The only main line use of 750V d.c. overhead I can think of was Hither Green Yard, to avoid people tripping over live rails. Presumably, there was some sort of changeover point at the reception sidings.

I believe a few Kent collieries also had it (Snowdown springs to mind) for working with the 71's.

 

[Holly]

The only main line use of 750V d.c. overhead I can think of was Hither Green Yard, to avoid people tripping over live rails. Presumably, there was some sort of changeover point at the reception sidings.

Ah, thank you.
What an amazing forum, so many knowledgeable nice folks.

 

[Barett M95]

Kinematic gauging may be simple in the theoretical explanation, but gauge clearing excercises are a lot of work that is often complex.

 

[Hydro]

Kinematic gauging may be simple in the theoretical explanation, but gauge clearing excercises are a lot of work that is often complex.

Indeed, I was involved in a lot of structure and platform gauging and it's a very time consuming and laborious process just on the side of the physical gauging itself. There's a massive administration and analysis side to it to organise the information into a useable format (for programs such as ClearRoute).

 

[Barett M95]

Indeed, I was involved in a lot of structure and platform gauging and it's a very time consuming and laborious process just on the side of the physical gauging itself. There's a massive administration and analysis side to it to organise the information into a useable format (for programs such as ClearRoute).

Ahh excellent. Apologies, I'm new here today and don't know anybody. I have been involved in this work from the other side in years past - rolling stock dynamic clearances and tolerances and can vouch for the admin and planning side of the work along with the calculation of swept envelope of the vehicles.