[Triva] What is the longest rail journey between two stations that use to be directly connected but now aren't?

[Western 52]

Uckfield to Lewes? Not sure of the distances, but looks a long way round by rail.

 

[Gloster]

I was thinking va London might be shorter, but you are probably correct.

Would anything via the former M&GN Jt work? Sort of High Dyke to Sheringham?

I would guess Sheringham-Spalding for the M&GN.

Where would Bournemouth to Bath/Bristol figure in the running? Formerly direct via S&DJR, now requires changing at Upwey (or Dorchester with a walk), or at Southampton and Salisbury.

It would have to be Bristol T.M.-Poole.

A couple of other dubious possibilities:

Lydney-Cam & Dursley
Bicester Village-Bletchley

 

[Magdalia]

Would anything via the former M&GN Jt work?

I would guess Sheringham-Spalding for the M&GN.

My timetable library is being made to work overtime here. I only have public timetables for the M&GN and distances are difficult to work out because of the layout at South Lynn/Kings Lynn, so the M&GN distances are approximate.

I think that Sheringham-South Lynn, with a reversal at Melton Constable, is about 43 miles. South Lynn-Spalding is about 24.5 miles. South Lynn-Kings Lynn is 2 miles.

For today's distances I'm assuming going into Norwich and Ely.

Sheringham-Ely via Norwich is 84m24c and Ely-Spalding is 47m8ch. We are also going to need Ely-Kings Lynn, which is 26m40c.

So Sheringham-Spalding goes up from about 67.5 miles to about 131.5 miles, just a bit less than double the old distance.

Sheringham-Kings Lynn goes up from about 45 miles to about 111 miles. Kings Lynn-Spalding goes up from about 26.5 miles to about 73.5 miles. Both of these are between 2 and 3 times the old distance.

 

[DerekC]

If only the Highland and NBR had made up their differences and completed a railway along the Great Glen (and Beeching had closed it again, of course) we would have Banavie to Inverness, which I think would knock all the others out of the park. But I don't suppose might-have-been lines are allowed!

Is the winner the one with the biggest difference between current and once-possible, or the largest percentage increase?

 

[Morayshire]

Aviemore to Elgin? Direct route down Speyside vs Aviemore-Inverness-Elgin?

 

[Dr Hoo]

In Ireland, Claremorris on the Westport line is about 135 miles from Dublin. Collooney is about 130 miles from Dublin on the Sligo line.

There used to be a direct line between Claremorris and Collooney around 46.25 miles long. Since its closure and also that of the Mullingar-Athlone line it is necessary to travel via Dublin, around 265 miles. (I won't attempt to get into detail about Dublin's various termini and how to get between them by rail or LUAS but hopefully people get the picture.)

 

[Gloster]

I reckon that Clonmel-Rosslare via Limerick Junction is about 289 miles and I haven’t included the mile or two across Dublin. Cork-Rosslare would be even more, but the through trains ended years ago.

 

[infobleep]

If only the Highland and NBR had made up their differences and completed a railway along the Great Glen (and Beeching had closed it again, of course) we would have Banavie to Inverness, which I think would knock all the others out of the park. But I don't suppose might-have-been lines are allowed!

Is the winner the one with the biggest difference between current and once-possible, or the largest percentage increase?

Might have been lines aren't allowed but I like hearing about them.

I'm happy for absolute mile difference and also percentage

 

[etr221]

I suspect on a proportionate basis there are some short closures, of only a mile or so, that trigger some proportionally much longer surviving routes (it's easy to conceive of a mile long closure leading to a ten (or more) mile replacement - 10 times or 1000%, whereas a much longer closure - such as Aberystwyth-Carmarthen mentioned above (and currently thought of as front runner) is only 4 times as long now.

Also perhaps more in the way of ground rules is required - how are distances to be measured? station to station or junction to junction? only using lines/connections with passenger services? what (if any) notice to be made of closed stations (that may or may not have closed at the same time as the line)? any restriction on time period? what about non-National Rail links/lines? What about inter-station links that you are now expected to make a transfer (not by train) between?

 

[infobleep]

I suspect on a proportionate basis there are some short closures, of only a mile or so, that trigger some proportionally much longer surviving routes (it's easy to conceive of a mile long closure leading to a ten (or more) mile replacement - 10 times or 1000%, whereas a much longer closure - such as Aberystwyth-Carmarthen mentioned above (and currently thought of as front runner) is only 4 times as long now.

Also perhaps more in the way of ground rules is required - how are distances to be measured? station to station or junction to junction? only using lines/connections with passenger services? what (if any) notice to be made of closed stations (that may or may not have closed at the same time as the line? any restriction on time period? what about non-National Rail links/lines?

I'm happy to include non-national rail lines if they are running now.

As for distance, it needs to be station to station as that is usually where you board your train.

As for history, I don't mind when it is but it has to be a route that was possible by a train service or series of train services at the point of comparison.

So when looking at the past, you can't mix multiple years in the one journey as it simply wasn't possible in the real world.

I'm happy to have a separate strand on freight when comparing to freight now. However, unless a passenger was allowed on board, it can't count for passenger services comparisons.

 

[etr221]

I'm happy to include non-national rail lines if they are running now.

Or presumably then. Says he thinking of Acton Town to South Acton (1 km - 50 chain closure) - now (having thought more, and looked it up) about 4.6km.

And what about where new stations aren't quite in the same place as old ones?

 

[Rescars]

I'm happy to include non-national rail lines if they are running now.

As for distance, it needs to be station to station as that is usually where you board your train.

As for history, I don't mind when it is but it has to be a route that was possible by a train service or series of train services at the point of comparison.

So when looking at the past, you can't mix multiple years in the one journey as it simply wasn't possible in the real world.

I'm happy to have a separate strand on freight when comparing to freight now. However, unless a passenger was allowed on board, it can't count for passenger services comparisons.

Just re-reading your OP. Waterloo to Waterloo East without using the Underground must be quite a time-consuming trek with a lot of changes, though much reduced now the Overground links Clapham Junction with Peckham Rye. Much quicker to walk! Waterloo East was called Waterloo Junction when it was opened by the SER.

 

[Vespa]

You used to be able to go from St Helens to Southport direct, now you have to go from St Helens to Liverpool change then Liverpool Central to Southport.

 

[Tester]

Or presumably then. Says he thinking of Acton Town to South Acton (1 km - 50 chain closure) - now (having thought more, and looked it up) about 4.6km.

And what about where new stations aren't quite in the same place as old ones?

Acton Town to South Acton is an interesting one as it now requires two changes for a very short 'as the crow flies' distance.

 

[infobleep]

Or presumably then. Says he thinking of Acton Town to South Acton (1 km - 50 chain closure) - now (having thought more, and looked it up) about 4.6km.

And what about where new stations aren't quite in the same place as old ones?

I think those could be counted as one. If you ignore them, then there is no possibility of a comparison.

 

[Springs Branch]

What about Galashiels-Carlisle?

Hexham-Galashiels (?)

I had wondered about Carlisle-Galashiels too.
According to mileages in old BR ScR timetables:

• Carlisle - Galashiels via Riccarton Jn = 64¾ miles
• Carlisle - Galashiels via Carstairs & Edinburgh = 138 miles
  Difference = +73¼ miles; Factor of x2.1
  
  
• Hexham - Galashiels via Bellingham & Riccarton Jn = 74¼ miles
• Hexham - Galashiels via Carlisle & Edinburgh = 177½ miles
  Difference = +103 miles; Factor of x2.4

Starting from Hexham is a bit better, but until I did the sums I'd expected the differences would be a bit more than they turned out to be.

 

[racyrich]

Hertford East to Hertford North
Liverpool St to New Cross

 

[mike57]

I'm happy to include non-national rail lines if they are running now.

Malton (National rail) to Pickering (NYMR) must be up there with Scarborough - Whitby, as much of the route is the same, and an extra change at Grosmont to travel south to Pickering. Distance by rail was around 11 miles prior to closure.

Or another thought, Scarborough to Pickering, the direct link closed in 1950, and was about 19 miles I think.

 

[matchmaker]

Dunblane to Crianlarich?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Dunblane to Crianlarich?

See post #4.

 

[Skipness]

Or, even better, Scarborough to Whitby?

127 miles now, via York and Middlesbrough. Ballpark 20 miles when the 'direct' line via Ravenscar was still open.

I can confirm that the Whitby Scarborough journey is still being requested on a daily basis. This summer the X93 and X94 bus services have often been full (because of the £2 fare) and passengers have decided to investigate a rail return journey; after all there is a rail station at their destination. Requesting the time of the next train to Scarborough is the second most asked question at Whitby station.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I can confirm that the Whitby Scarborough journey is still being requested on a daily basis. This summer the X93 and X94 bus services have often been full (because of the £2 fare) and passengers have decided to investigate a rail return journey; after all there is a rail station at their destination.

No doubt the £69.20 walk up single rail fare then comes as a bit of a surprise! A taxi might well still be cheaper!

 

[Springs Branch]

You used to be able to go from St Helens to Southport direct, now you have to go from St Helens to Liverpool change then Liverpool Central to Southport.

That's an interesting call.

You certainly could have travelled in a straight-ish line across West Lancashire between St Helens & Southport using a collection of long-closed branch lines. There were no direct, through trains - change at Rainford Junction & Ormskirk - but a series of train services is allowed here according to the OP's post #40.

The journey opportunities on closed lines were actual wider still - rather than St Helens, you could have started at Warrington Bank Quay using the local railmotor from there to St Helens Shaw Street (via St Helens Junction & Sutton Oak). Unfortunately, Ditton Junction station was closed in 1994, otherwise you could have started there and used the 'Ditton Dodger' via Widnes (South) to St Helens, then on to Southport.

What was the timetable for these kinds of trips?
Well, here's one I prepared earlier, from the LMR timetable for 1949 (I needed to pass some time during lockdown!).
Figures in red italics indicate connecting trains - the original timetable compilers were very generous in showing connections with main towns & cities for these branch lines.

Looking at some of the infrequent services and long connection times along the way, wherever you started from it would usually be a bit of an epic trek going that way (and coming home wasn't much better)

 

[mike57]

I can confirm that the Whitby Scarborough journey is still being requested on a daily basis. This summer the X93 and X94 bus services have often been full (because of the £2 fare) and passengers have decided to investigate a rail return journey; after all there is a rail station at their destination. Requesting the time of the next train to Scarborough is the second most asked question at Whitby station.

Interestingly Northern still offer a Yorkshire Coast Day Ranger which includes the Scarborough - Whitby bus. At £25.40 v £22.60 for an anytime day return from Hull to Scarborough it could be good value if you are visiting several places in the one day or going all the way to or from Whitby, assuming you want a before 9.30am start as there are no time restrictions.

 

[Jack Hay]

If going via Sheffield the doubling back distance alone (Sheffield-Dore and Derby-Ambergate), will be around 15 miles!

( This is about Buxton to Matlock.). The doubling back is even more than you calculated, because it's also necessary to double back between Hazel Grove and Stockport. Three times in one journey!

 

[duffield]

( This is about Buxton to Matlock.). The doubling back is even more than you calculated, because it's also necessary to double back between Hazel Grove and Stockport. Three times in one journey!

On the other hand, you can reduce the doubling back mileage by 15m34ch once a day, by catching the 0618 from Matlock and changing at Belper for Sheffield (the 0655 from Derby to Sheffield stops at Belper), instead of going all the way into Derby.

This won't save any time normally though since you'd probably end up getting the same Derby->Sheffield train (with a 5 minute connection) at Derby, but if the train from Matlock was late you could avoid missing the connection at Derby by changing at Belper.

 

[Springs Branch]

Another random possibility, given the thread can use 'any steel wheel on steel rail'
This won't win any mileage prizes, but is notable for the variety of motive power to do the modern-day journey: Kettle – Tram – Sprinter

• Ramsbottom to Accrington

Historically was 8½ miles direct via Baxenden.
Today's route would be over 48 miles:-
- ELR Ramsbottom to Bury Bolton Street.
- Quick walk to Bury Interchange.
- Metrolink tram to Victoria.
- Northern train Victoria to Accrington via Todmorden.

Apart from the roundabout route, what may be irksome to some is that the fastest way to do such a quintessential 'Lancashire' journey as Ramsbottom to Accrington involves going via bloody Yorkshire!

 

[mike57]

Ramsbottom to Accrington

Off topic thought, if some of the lines in the area had hung on a bit longer would they now be part of Metrolink? The areas they pass through are quite well populated.

 

[LickeyIncliner]

I don't have the distances, but just looking at the Adlestrop map then Stratford upon Avon to Evesham looks to be about 8 or 9 times further now than when there was a direct line between them. A bit more again if you don't allow walking from Moor Street to New Street (because then you have to go via Kidderminster and Worcester rather than via Worcestershire Parkway), and even more if you go via Oxford (which from the National Rail Journey Planner appears to be a valid route). That said, I don't know which services used which of the stations in Stratford, so this may not be a strict "same station" comparison.

Also, as a historical contender: Birmingham Snow Hill to Birmingham Moor Street would have been a good (i.e. bad!) example during the years when both stations were open but Snow Hill Tunnel was closed (1968 to 1972, I believe).

 

[Ken H]

Ilkley - Skipton. Even the bus service has crumbled.