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Trivia, 1st 100% (OMO) OPO Major operator in UK

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delt1c

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Wondering who was the 1st Major operator to be 100% (OMO) OPO in the UK , excluding small independents. I know many large municipals planned it in the 60's but not sure if any actually managed it due to the extra vehicles needed and the unreliability of many vehicles of the time. The SBG even went as far as swapping their VRT's for Loddekkas
 
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TheGrandWazoo

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Wondering who was the 1st Major operator to be 100% (OMO) OPO in the UK , excluding small independents. I know many large municipals planned it in the 60's but not sure if any actually managed it due to the extra vehicles needed and the unreliability of many vehicles of the time. The SBG even went as far as swapping their VRT's for Loddekkas

Great question!!! Wonder what do you consider as a major operator/small independent?

The SBG's gift was well received for NBC firms wanting more "one man" suitable vehicles. However, even then, a firm like United Auto who received 20 VRs and withdrew their last Lodekkas (except trainers) in 1978 still had conductors until the 25th October 1986.
 

Man of Kent

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NXBus's website has a news story giving the date of WMPTE's last conductor as March 1978.
Many of the PTEs and former Tilling companies had front-engined deckers lasting until around 1980/81, so the WMPTE date could be relatively early, certainly for such a big fleet.
I wonder if it may have been a municipal - Newport Transport perhaps?
 

TheGrandWazoo

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NXBus's website has a news story giving the date of WMPTE's last conductor as March 1978.
Many of the PTEs and former Tilling companies had front-engined deckers lasting until around 1980/81, so the WMPTE date could be relatively early, certainly for such a big fleet.
I wonder if it may have been a municipal - Newport Transport perhaps?

You thinking it might be someone who had exact fare, had a predominantly single deck fleet? That sort of thing?
 

delt1c

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Was thinking Sunderland as they were looking at the Continental, high capacity, exact fare single deck. However not sure as many vehicles proved unreliable. A classic example was London and the failed MB , SM families
 

Man of Kent

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You thinking it might be someone who had exact fare, had a predominantly single deck fleet? That sort of thing?
Indeed so, though there are surprisingly few who fit the bill. Many hung on to a handful of front engined deckers that required conductors, even where the rest of the fleet had gone over to exact fare.
 

CBlue

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You thinking it might be someone who had exact fare, had a predominantly single deck fleet? That sort of thing?
With that in mind, Ipswich Buses could well be a contender although I don't know enough about them to say when they withdrew crewed operation!
 

baza585

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Provincial (Gosport and Fareham) were all single deck by the mid 70s. Will try to get a date for withdrawal of the last AEC Regent.
 

baza585

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Last 3 ex Oxford Regents withdrawn by Provincial in 1975. Nice buses with only 65 seats in a 30ft body. Remember them well.
 

delt1c

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Great question!!! Wonder what do you consider as a major operator/small independent?

The SBG's gift was well received for NBC firms wanting more "one man" suitable vehicles. However, even then, a firm like United Auto who received 20 VRs and withdrew their last Lodekkas (except trainers) in 1978 still had conductors until the 25th October 1986.
Was thinking of a small operator 100 vehicles or less. Trust me we in Scotland were glad to see the back of the early VRT’s , the Lodekkas ( even with plastic seats) were a vast improvement.
 

Man of Kent

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With that in mind, Ipswich Buses could well be a contender although I don't know enough about them to say when they withdrew crewed operation!
Various sources suggest August 1986, so not even close!
 

Man of Kent

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Further research has come up with Kingston upon Hull City Transport - last conductor worked on 10 November 1972 (according to a contemporary Buses magazine).
 

GusB

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I think "major operator" is probably more a case of "public sector operator" - i.e. former NBC/SBG or municipals/PTE as opposed to "independents", but I may be wrong in my assumption.

Locally, I don't recall seeing conductors on buses at all, although I know there were some exceptions where services ran with one*. There were still a few ex-NBC Lodekkas kicking about when I was a kid but I only ever saw them used on school contracts and private hires/excursions. I've seen photos of conductresses from around 1976 when there were still a couple of Albion Lowlanders in the fleet, but I was still a toddler then. All the services I travelled on were OM(P)O, and I'd imagine the rural operators were probably among the keenest to progress.

When I went further afield visiting grandparents on holidays, I do remember conductors. The service that ran from Coatbridge into Glasgow was one. Memories are hazy, but I'm fairly sure it was Scottish Omnibuses (Eastern Scottish) Fleetlines that ran on that route.

* Ususally a driver deputising as a conductor
 

Justin Tyme

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NXBus's website has a news story giving the date of WMPTE's last conductor as March 1978.
Many of the PTEs and former Tilling companies had front-engined deckers lasting until around 1980/81, so the WMPTE date could be relatively early, certainly for such a big fleet.
For information, and correcting the NXWM new story, March 1978 was the when the last ex-Birmingham City Transport service went OPO. The last WMPTE conductors finished in December 1980 (West Midlands, Malcolm Keeley, Capital Transport).
 

RT4038

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Further research has come up with Kingston upon Hull City Transport - last conductor worked on 10 November 1972 (according to a contemporary Buses magazine).

This is indeed very early, but quite possible for a municipal fleet. I would guess that City of Oxford Motor Services might have been the first 'company' fleet, around 1974/5?
 

upasalmon

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Further research has come up with Kingston upon Hull City Transport - last conductor worked on 10 November 1972 (according to a contemporary Buses magazine).
I will tell you of a couple of near misses due to the introduction of PTEs. Newcastle upon Tyne was all driver only by 1971, but was no longer an operator.

Another operator which could have gone driver only in the late 1960s is Wallasey Corporation had they replaced the time expired 1951/2 Leyland Titan PD2s. They were trialling single Decker's demonstrators but left the replacement job to Merseyside PTE


demonstrators
 

Man of Kent

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This is indeed very early, but quite possible for a municipal fleet. I would guess that City of Oxford Motor Services might have been the first 'company' fleet, around 1974/5?
Still had AEC Renowns in the fleet in 1977, according to a picture in the Presbus Publishing 'A City of Oxford Album'.
 
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I will tell you of a couple of near misses due to the introduction of PTEs. Newcastle upon Tyne was all driver only by 1971, but was no longer an operator.

Another operator which could have gone driver only in the late 1960s is Wallasey Corporation had they replaced the time expired 1951/2 Leyland Titan PD2s. They were trialling single Decker's demonstrators but left the replacement job to Merseyside PTE


demonstrators

United in Newcastle had routes paid at the PTE rate and operated in their colours. We had a conductor who refused to retrain as a driver but all routes were OMO so they put him in the cashing in office but he was paid at the PTE conductor rate. Very odd situation. This existed right up to deregulation IIRC.
 

Springs Branch

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Anyone know where Greater Glasgow PTE / Strathclyde PTE sat in the 100% OPO chronology?

I remember visiting Glasgow in the late 1970s when the PTE was Atlantean Central, "Exact Fare - No Change" was in operation and there was already widespread (universal?) installation of assault screens around driver's cabs.

I went to Glasgow mainly for trainspotting purposes and had hoped to catch a glimpse of the iconic Corporation PD3s in their native environment - but never did.
 
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RT4038

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Still had AEC Renowns in the fleet in 1977, according to a picture in the Presbus Publishing 'A City of Oxford Album'.

Yes, but these had (unusually, but not unknown elsewhere) been converted to be worked OMO. (Generally used on peak hour journys only)
 

RT4038

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I will tell you of a couple of near misses due to the introduction of PTEs. Newcastle upon Tyne was all driver only by 1971, but was no longer an operator.

Another operator which could have gone driver only in the late 1960s is Wallasey Corporation had they replaced the time expired 1951/2 Leyland Titan PD2s. They were trialling single Decker's demonstrators but left the replacement job to Merseyside PTE
Newcastle (as represented by Tyne & Wear PTE), may have had only front entrance buses by 1971, but certainly had two-man crews working into the 1980s (on Metro Scanias and Atlanteans).
 

RT4038

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United in Newcastle had routes paid at the PTE rate and operated in their colours. We had a conductor who refused to retrain as a driver but all routes were OMO so they put him in the cashing in office but he was paid at the PTE conductor rate. Very odd situation. This existed right up to deregulation IIRC.

This was not an unusual situation in many companies/undertakings, usually due to a 'no redundancy' agreement from the start of widespread OMO conversion. Cash offices/stores/enquiry offices/loading reporters/cleaners positions were all used somewhere. As you say, de-regulation changed the situation somewhat.
 

Busaholic

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I always believed Sunderland Corporation was the first to complete omo, from accounts in Buses Illustrated at the time, which I'm guessing now was 1972 or 1973, but that was more about replacing a fleet of double decks, including halfcabs, with new standee single deckers, from memory Daimler Roadliners, but I've never been to Sunderland, so it was only what I read! On the other hand, Hull Corporation could have been quietly introducing a fleet of Atlanteans/Fleetlines and gradually converting to omo, such that conductors were phased out by the end of 1972, so that may have been the first.

Other contenders not mentioned already might have been Maidstone Corporation, Brighton Corporation (the first to experiment with omo using halfcab forward entrance Leyland Titans), City of Lancaster and Barton Buses. Maidstone, though going into 1970 with only one remaining crew route, did however keep a couple of halfcabs for use on peak extras and schools duties, so it doesn't win.
 

RT4038

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I always believed Sunderland Corporation was the first to complete omo, from accounts in Buses Illustrated at the time, which I'm guessing now was 1972 or 1973, but that was more about replacing a fleet of double decks, including halfcabs, with new standee single deckers, from memory Daimler Roadliners, but I've never been to Sunderland, so it was only what I read! On the other hand, Hull Corporation could have been quietly introducing a fleet of Atlanteans/Fleetlines and gradually converting to omo, such that conductors were phased out by the end of 1972, so that may have been the first.

Other contenders not mentioned already might have been Maidstone Corporation, Brighton Corporation (the first to experiment with omo using halfcab forward entrance Leyland Titans), City of Lancaster and Barton Buses. Maidstone, though going into 1970 with only one remaining crew route, did however keep a couple of halfcabs for use on peak extras and schools duties, so it doesn't win.

I would have thought Sunderland was a contender, as they were quite forward thinking at the time. Maybe another Forum member has some info?
 

Man of Kent

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I would have thought Sunderland was a contender, as they were quite forward thinking at the time. Maybe another Forum member has some info?
As ever, they kept some rear-loaders, to the extent a handful passed to Tyneside PTE (as it then was) in 1973. There is a published article on general manager Norman Morton's flat fare scheme that was implemented circa 1966, possibly in quite an old edition of Classic Bus. Ultimately its abandonment led to his resignation.

Maidstone's last rear-entrance Leyland Titan PD2s were withdrawn in either 1977 or 1978.
 

Busaholic

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As ever, they kept some rear-loaders, to the extent a handful passed to Tyneside PTE (as it then was) in 1973. There is a published article on general manager Norman Morton's flat fare scheme that was implemented circa 1966, possibly in quite an old edition of Classic Bus. Ultimately its abandonment led to his resignation.

Maidstone's last rear-entrance Leyland Titan PD2s were withdrawn in either 1977 or 1978.
I think in the case of a smallish municipal like Maidstone there was a deliberate policy, which some might consider sentimental, to keep a few older conductors on, particularly women, as they were never going to become bus drivers. Even London Country, at Godstone and a couple of other garages too, adopted a similar policy, showing a more human side than might be the case in these more corporate times.
 

RT4038

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I think in the case of a smallish municipal like Maidstone there was a deliberate policy, which some might consider sentimental, to keep a few older conductors on, particularly women, as they were never going to become bus drivers. Even London Country, at Godstone and a couple of other garages too, adopted a similar policy, showing a more human side than might be the case in these more corporate times.

I think you will find that this policy often stemmed from 'no redundancy' agreements in exchange for TU co-operation in speeding up OMO conversion, (and/or political considerations within municipals) The speed at which vehicles suitable for OMO could be afforded and delivered was also a major factor.
 
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