Trivia: Britain's Strangest Bus Routes

[MotCO]

Don't think this one has been mentioned yet...
The 23A Warminster - Imber (and beyond), is a frequent service with approximately 6 buses per hour, but only runs for one day of the year, although I belive there was a skeleton service for a second day in 2019.
Last years detailed and summary timetables are attached - it has unfortunately been cancelled this year.

Probably because it is such a regular fixture in the calendar that no one though it was extraordinary

 

[leedslad82]

The 940 got rerouted on certain journeys to serve the st helena holiday park near leeds bradford airport. Not sure if it goes into the park or just stops at the entrance on a hail and ride basis as i dont think there any bus stops

 

[Dai Corner]

Phil Anslow of Varteg near Pontypool's 24X has the first journey originating from the stop adjacent to the depot and the last terminating there. The rest of the day is spent shuttling between Cwmbran and Newport. Presumably this is to get BSOG for what are otherwise positioning moves.

Didn't First WoE do something similar between Hengrove Depot and Temple Meads at one time?

 

[TheSel]

Really enjoying the crosville part of this thread.They had some weird and wonderful routes in England and Wales. I think I read somewhere maybe 20 years ago that the 76 was swapped with MPTE for a crosville route to Huyton.Not to sure but I think it went the main road route to Liverpool same as the H2,3,4 . The pines caravan park route was the M81,and the one to Towyn was M87. Can't remember which one but I'm sure either the R1,2 or 3 went to the butlins camp at pwhelli.

R3 (now Arriva / Caelloi 3) was / is Pwllheli - Criccieth - Porthmadog - Blaenau Ffestiniog, and passed the camp entrance at Pwllheli, but sadly, I'm old enough to remember (and to have ridden / photographed) when it was the R27. I'm not 100% sure of the date of the renumbering, but from the 5 May 74 - 3 May 75 timetable:



and from the 'Summer 1976' one:



Note the halving of the basic frequency from Pwllheli to Criccieth, and the introduction of some short journeys (black circle on this t/t, and not running on Saturdays) to/from Butlins Camp - hence your recollection of R3's going there.

R1 (previously N82) was Caernarfon - Porthmadog
R2 (previously N84) was Caernarfon - Criccieth

- but from the t/t recast, some journeys continued to Blaenau Ffestiniog and Tanygrisiau. This latter extension (to Tanygrisiau) was essentially to 'save a bus', as the extension of the Porthmadog service allowed the withdrawal of the erstwhile R37 Llan Ffestiniog - Blaenau Ffestiniog - Tanygrisiau local service. And, I suppose, made certain through journeys possible for the good burghers of Tanygrisiau!

Thanks for the Pines = M81 reminder. Spot on!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Phil Anslow of Varteg near Pontypool's 24X has the first journey originating from the stop adjacent to the depot and the last terminating there. The rest of the day is spent shuttling between Cwmbran and Newport. Presumably this is to get BSOG for what are otherwise positioning moves.

Didn't First WoE do something similar between Hengrove Depot and Temple Meads at one time?

They had services 53 and 54 as placement journeys.

Arriva NE's X66/67 from Darlington to Middlesbrough have a number of journeys starting from and terminating in Faverdale by their depot. Oddly, some journeys on the X26 Darlington to Catterick do something similar though the time point is not at the depot but the Aldi DC 200m up the road.

 

[86247]

I will have to have a good look but I've got a few old crosville timetables somewhere one for England and Wales not had a good look at them for years,I recall that their was a service from Denbigh to North Wales hospital but can't remember the frequency or number of the service, plus a service to the sanatorium again can't remember the number but both started with M.

 

[Statto]

Do you mean immediately before deregulation?

Until the mid 1950s, Crosville routes were [just] numbered - the area-based prefixes being introduced in (I think) 1957 [someone please feel free to correct me if that's not quite right, but I'm pretty sure it was before the 1958 fleet re-numbering scheme].

Then in 1971, the second Mersey Tunnel (Wallasey Tunnel) was opened and shortly afterwards the Liverpool - Heswall 'Rapidride' services (via M53 and Wallasey Tunnel) were introduced. These were numbered 418/419, in the Merseyside PTE 'Rapidride' services. Whilst these may well have technically been "joint" with MPTE, they were operated exclusively by Crosville (Heswall depot) - indeed, they became Crosville's first double deck 'one man operated' (no sexism implied - that's just how it was termed in those days) services, after a short period of operation with dual-purpose Bristol RELLs.

View attachment 77468

Then in 1979, the whole of the Wirral service network was recast. Most F prefix routes were removed, and Crosville became the sole operator of MANY numbered services with no route prefix.

There were also, as you say, several other joint services which had no route number prefix letter - several in Warrington such as the 17, the 43-46 group and the 140 to/from St Helens, and some from Biddulph where Crosville took over the former North Western routes, and for a while operated 310-312 jointly with PMT. You rightly mentioned the 89 - of course there was also the 89A variant, which Crosville invariably operated showing A89.

View attachment 77469

But how about this one? This is from the 3 July 1977 Crosville 'English area' book:

View attachment 77467

There is nothing to suggest this was part of a joint operation, and I freely admit I don't know. Does anyone out there know?

I forgot about the 418/419, which started in 1973, but numbered in the PTE rapidride scheme.

But i do love NBC era vehicle number displays, many NBC buses would display the suffix letter first, there's a pic on flickr of a Crosville bristol displaying A80 instead of 80A[A80 would have been a route in the Flintshire part of Clwyd at the time], many Ribble buses pre d-reg would have the same thing displayed, plenty displaying A57 instead of 57A

I didn't know about that 216, i wonder if that was a Merseyside PTE route

 

[markymark2000]

Have enjoyed reading about all the routes posted here - some really interesting ones so far!

I've just remembered another one, the Stagecoach routes 1/2 in Guildford. The route itself is a circular service serving various areas in and around Guildford, but - for who knows what reason - the route is split into two sections (and not even in the same location!)

This is the 1 (clockwise, anti-clockwise):

View attachment 77440 View attachment 77439

This is the 2 (clockwise, anti-clockwise):

View attachment 77442 View attachment 77441

I struggle to see any logic behind this, as it appears to be designed just to confuse passengers. It'd make more sense to assign the "1" and "2" to clockwise and anti-clockwise services around the whole loop.

While I agree it should be numbered as clockwise any anticlockwisei, The way they have done is is so people heading to half of the circular only need to know 1 route number. (For example the uni, you would get the 1). The reason it's split at different points is so the destination and ticket machines work out. If someone boards at Manor Road, they need to know that it's a route 1 to get to (and sell tickets for) the uni or hospital rather than a route 2 to Stoughton.

 

[lxfe_mxtterz]

While I agree it should be numbered as clockwise any anticlockwisei, The way they have done is is so people heading to half of the circular only need to know 1 route number. (For example the uni, you would get the 1). The reason it's split at different points is so the destination and ticket machines work out. If someone boards at Manor Road, they need to know that it's a route 1 to get to (and sell tickets for) the uni or hospital rather than a route 2 to Stoughton.

Ah, that makes sense. Thanks for that.

 

[TheSel]

I will have to have a good look but I've got a few old crosville timetables somewhere one for England and Wales not had a good look at them for years,I recall that their was a service from Denbigh to North Wales hospital but can't remember the frequency or number of the service, plus a service to the sanatorium again can't remember the number but both started with M.

'North Wales Hospital' was M61 - essentially short workings of the Denbigh - Waen Nantglyn service.

'Sanatorium' was M76 - essentially short workings of the 'back road' Denbigh - Llandyrnog - Gellifor - Ruthin service.

Extracts below from the No5 area timetable for the period 5 May 1974 - 3 May 1975






There was another route to North Wales Hospital - the twice weekly D8 (return journey shown as 'D8X' on the running sheets, as it was limited stop) from Wrexham, an extension of the Wrexham - Ruthin route.



Here, pictured in March 1981 leaving the hospital.

 

[Belperpete]

Really enjoying the crosville part of this thread.They had some weird and wonderful routes in England and Wales.

I seem to recall some odd routes that only used to run on Llanrwst market and fair days only. I think that meant it ran every Tuesday, except on those weeks when there was a fair (the first week in the month?), when it would run on Wednesday. I remember once trying to catch one of these buses, to Penmachno I think, but it never turned up, so I must have got the calculation wrong.

 

[matt_world2004]

Bit of a riddle this one but a few years ago the 140 was tfls most expensive and cheapest bus route in terms of ticket price.

 

[Belperpete]

Slightly off topic but it really was appalling how we treated people with mental health issues up until the 70's. Lock them up in asylums as far away as possible. Out of sight, out of mind...

But at least that was better than a lot of medieval and Georgian treatments.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

But at least that was better than a lot of medieval and Georgian treatments.

Well yes, but still not great.

I wish I had access to my old timetable books (but they're in one place and I'm in another). Seem to recall that the United's Ripon to York service also diverted via Whixley Hospital. Many of these sanitoriums and asylums were located out in the sticks and had these obscure bus services for visitors.

 

[Statto]

Watford area had a few early morning circular services, all operating one way with up to 3 journeys, & all the routes operated before 7am.

 

[Whisky Papa]

There was another route to North Wales Hospital - the twice weekly D8 (return journey shown as 'D8X' on the running sheets, as it was limited stop) from Wrexham, an extension of the Wrexham - Ruthin route.

View attachment 77490

Here, pictured in March 1981 leaving the hospital.

View attachment 77491

That seems a slightly unusual definition of "Limited Stop", I would have thought? Is it not more of a loading restriction, as presumably the service will stop at any stop required as long as the passengers are being carried in accordance with that instruction?

We had a vaguely similar situation with the 588 Metro / First service from Todmorden to the hospitals in Halifax, in that the faretable originally said fares were only available to and from the hospitals, not for intermediate journeys. It also ran non-stop between Tuel Lane Top and the hospitals, so was in effect limited stop as well! Intermediate fares were later added, but it was rare to use them as it was timed close behind service journeys on the 590.

 

[Statto]

Really enjoying the crosville part of this thread.They had some weird and wonderful routes in England and Wales. I think I read somewhere maybe 20 years ago that the 76 was swapped with MPTE for a crosville route to Huyton.Not to sure but I think it went the main road route to Liverpool same as the H2,3,4 . The pines caravan park route was the M81,and the one to Towyn was M87. Can't remember which one but I'm sure either the R1,2 or 3 went to the butlins camp at pwhelli.

The 76 route was via the current 61 route recently operated by Halton Transport, the PTE 76 was Pier Head-Broad Green which originated from LCPT days, the PTE 76 was withdrawn in 73, & replaced by the Crosville 76 & extended to Prescot, most Crosville services to Huyton operated via Wavertree[Picton] Clock but had stopping restrictions imposed between Pier Head & Wavertree, then became limited stop

Reading a bit more, the Crosville route was originally H14 Pier Head-Prescot, this was renumbered to 76 when the PTE withdrew there 76

 

[johnnychips]

I seem to recall some odd routes that only used to run on Llanrwst market and fair days only. I think that meant it ran every Tuesday, except on those weeks when there was a fair (the first week in the month?), when it would run on Wednesday. I remember once trying to catch one of these buses, to Penmachno I think, but it never turned up, so I must have got the calculation wrong.

from 1975

 

[carlberry]

Back in the days of the NBC you could get an explorer ticket that was also valid on some municipalities in South Wales. It was valid on Rhymney Valley services but not Taff Ely. You'd think that was fairly simple however the service between Caerphilly and Pontypridd at the time was run by both operators on a week on, week off basis (i.e. each ran the whole thing for one week then nothing the next week). The relevant weeks were not printed in the timetables (as the locals didnt care) however the one time I wanted to use it the wrong operator turned up! Thankfully a discussion with the conductor ended with the agreement that as both operators season tickets were valid on the service he'd accept it as if it was a season ticket and if an inspector got on it was my problem!

 

[TheSel]

I seem to recall some odd routes that only used to run on Llanrwst market and fair days only. I think that meant it ran every Tuesday, except on those weeks when there was a fair (the first week in the month?), when it would run on Wednesday. I remember once trying to catch one of these buses, to Penmachno I think, but it never turned up, so I must have got the calculation wrong.

View attachment 77502
from 1975

Quite right, particularly the very odd 'Llanrwst Market and Fair Days Only' situation. An important consideration is that Fair Day was the Wednesday following the first Tuesday in the month. So, if the 1st of the month happened to be a Wednesday, Fair Day would not be until be Wednesday 8th - the day after the first Tuesday (the 7th). Very easy to get mixed up!

From that same 1975 period - Llanrwst 'locals' ran on the following days:

M3: Llanrwst - Cwm Penmacho: Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Friday and Saturday (different times on Saturdays) but not Thursdays.
M4: Llanrwst - Gwytherin: Fridays only
M7: Llanrwst - Melin-y-Coed: Market Day, Fair Day and Friday
M23: Llanrwst - Capel Garmon: Market Day and Fair Day only
M24: Llanrwst - Colwyn Bay (via Glan Conway and Eglwysbach): Market Day and Fair Day (year round), plus one journey Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday in High Summer (mid July - end August)
M96: Llanrwst - Nebo: Market Day and Fair Day (afternoon journey an hour later during high summer).

A recipe for confusion!

Going back further - the September 1965 timetable additionally shows:

M5: Llanrwst - Llanddoget: Market Day, Fair Day and Saturday
M6: Llanrwst - Pwllterfyn: Market Day, Fair Day and Saturday

... and at that time the M4 (Gwytherin) also ran on Market Day, Fair Day and Saturday, M7 (Melin-y-Coed) also ran on Friday, M23 (Capel Garmon) also ran on Saturday and M96 (Nebo) also ran on Saturday - when it extended to Pentrefoelas.

To add to the 'days of operation' confusion, at that date there was also an M2, via Betws-y-Coed, Pentrefoelas and Clocaenog to / from Ruthin, with some journeys that which ran on 'Ruthin Market and Fair Days', and others on 'Llanrwst Market and Fair Days'. Ruthin Market day was Mondays - except (wait for it ...) the Monday before the first Tuesday in the month - when it was Ruthin Fair Day! So, essentially, Ruthin Fair day (first Tuesday in a month) would always be immediately followed by Llanrwst Fair Day. Presumably the same traders wended their way (with whatever goods they had left!) over the moors to Llanrwst overnight.

Although we tend to think of rural public transport as being pretty well non-existent nowadays, most of these places mentioned above still have a skeleton service, operated by Llew Jones. Their 68A/B/C/D variants essentially operate to bring the outlying villagers in to Llanrwst two mornings a week, returning typically mid-afternoon. Other than Llandogget (served each Weekday), the days of operation for each village differ. Details here.

@johnnychips has nicely shown the D90 timetable which ran to Llanrwst from Corwen, again on Market & Fair Days. There was a similar service, the R34 from Blaenau Ffestiniog:





The vehicles that ran in from Corwen (D90), Blaenau Ffestiniog (R34) and Llandudno Junction (M24) used to operate some of the locals, as Llanrwst deport didn't have enough to cover everything. From memory, the Blaenau bus worked the morning Gwytherin, the Corwen bus worked the morning Nebo, and Llandudno Junction worked both Capel Garmon workings.

@Belperpete - you missed a treat if you never did the Cwm Penmachno route. Through some stunning, if desolate, scenery to a little terrace of houses.

20 April 1976


Renumbered to M94 by 3 May 1986


... and Llew Jones still normally runs there six times a day (excluding Sunday) as extensions of the 19 Llandudno - Llanrwst - Cwm Penmachno - here on 26 June 2018, my most recent visit. Note - CoronaVirus timetable is only three times a day.

 

[TheSel]

That seems a slightly unusual definition of "Limited Stop", I would have thought? Is it not more of a loading restriction, as presumably the service will stop at any stop required as long as the passengers are being carried in accordance with that instruction?

You'd have thought so, yes. But then again, it's an odd loading restriction, because if implemented in exactly the way stated in the timetable, a passenger for the Hospital could board the only outward journey at, say, Llysfasi, and not be allowed to get off there on the way back! I cannot believe it was intentional that such a hypothetical passenger would be expected to remain on the 1600 from NW Hospital all the way to Llandegla (1650) and await the 1655 back towards Ruthin. Good luck to the driver trying to enforce that!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Quite right, particularly the very odd 'Llanrwst Market and Fair Days Only' situation. An important consideration is that Fair Day was the Wednesday following the first Tuesday in the month. So, if the 1st of the month happened to be a Wednesday, Fair Day would not be until be Wednesday 8th - the day after the first Tuesday (the 7th). Very easy to get mixed up!

From that same 1975 period - Llanrwst 'locals' ran on the following days:

M3: Llanrwst - Cwm Penmacho: Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Friday and Saturday (different times on Saturdays) but not Thursdays.
M4: Llanrwst - Gwytherin: Fridays only
M7: Llanrwst - Melin-y-Coed: Market Day, Fair Day and Friday
M23: Llanrwst - Capel Garmon: Market Day and Fair Day only
M24: Llanrwst - Colwyn Bay (via Glan Conway and Eglwysbach): Market Day and Fair Day (year round), plus one journey Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday in High Summer (mid July - end August)
M96: Llanrwst - Nebo: Market Day and Fair Day (afternoon journey an hour later during high summer).

A recipe for confusion!

Going back further - the September 1965 timetable additionally shows:

M5: Llanrwst - Llanddoget: Market Day, Fair Day and Saturday
M6: Llanrwst - Pwllterfyn: Market Day, Fair Day and Saturday

... and at that time the M4 (Gwytherin) also ran on Market Day, Fair Day and Saturday, M7 (Melin-y-Coed) also ran on Friday, M23 (Capel Garmon) also ran on Saturday and M96 (Nebo) also ran on Saturday - when it extended to Pentrefoelas.

To add to the 'days of operation' confusion, at that date there was also an M2, via Betws-y-Coed, Pentrefoelas and Clocaenog to / from Ruthin, with some journeys that which ran on 'Ruthin Market and Fair Days', and others on 'Llanrwst Market and Fair Days'. Ruthin Market day was Mondays - except (wait for it ...) the Monday before the first Tuesday in the month - when it was Ruthin Fair Day! So, essentially, Ruthin Fair day (first Tuesday in a month) would always be immediately followed by Llanrwst Fair Day. Presumably the same traders wended their way (with whatever goods they had left!) over the moors to Llanrwst overnight.

Although we tend to think of rural public transport as being pretty well non-existent nowadays, most of these places mentioned above still have a skeleton service, operated by Llew Jones. Their 68A/B/C/D variants essentially operate to bring the outlying villagers in to Llanrwst two mornings a week, returning typically mid-afternoon. Other than Llandogget (served each Weekday), the days of operation for each village differ. Details here.

@johnnychips has nicely shown the D90 timetable which ran to Llanrwst from Corwen, again on Market & Fair Days. There was a similar service, the R34 from Blaenau Ffestiniog:

View attachment 77509



The vehicles that ran in from Corwen (D90), Blaenau Ffestiniog (R34) and Llandudno Junction (M24) used to operate some of the locals, as Llanrwst deport didn't have enough to cover everything. From memory, the Blaenau bus worked the morning Gwytherin, the Corwen bus worked the morning Nebo, and Llandudno Junction worked both Capel Garmon workings.

@Belperpete - you missed a treat if you never did the Cwm Penmachno route. Through some stunning, if desolate, scenery to a little terrace of houses.

20 April 1976
View attachment 77505

Renumbered to M94 by 3 May 1986
View attachment 77506

... and Llew Jones still normally runs there six times a day (excluding Sunday) as extensions of the 19 Llandudno - Llanrwst - Cwm Penmachno - here on 26 June 2018, my most recent visit. Note - CoronaVirus timetable is only three times a day.
View attachment 77507

More superb information and photographs. Been mountain biking above Penmachno - some stunningly bleak scenery!!

United Auto used to have places with complex market day services though many were axed by North Yorkshire CC budget cuts in 1981 (a tradition of not supporting buses that they still maintain now) but you had places like Leyburn in Wensleydale that had a Friday market day.

If it was Good Friday (or Christmas/NY Day was a Friday) though, the market was moved to Thursdays. As the local Hawes outstation (that did most Wensleydale services) was covering the service to Ripon market on a Thursday anyway, the main Richmond depot would have to cover the Friday duties of Hawes outbase, as well as operating their own regular Leyburn market day routes. All that for about 2 dozen pensioners with their National Transport Tokens.....(one for the kids, there).

 

[johnnychips]

Could I ask somebody Welsh what the difference is between a market day and a Fair day? I associate fairs with waltzers, dodgems and hook-a-duck, but I doubt it was that.

 

[TheSel]

More superb information and photographs. Been mountain biking above Penmachno - some stunningly bleak scenery!!

United Auto used to have places with complex market day services though many were axed by North Yorkshire CC budget cuts in 1981 (a tradition of not supporting buses that they still maintain now) but you had places like Leyburn in Wensleydale that had a Friday market day.

If it was Good Friday (or Christmas/NY Day was a Friday) though, the market was moved to Thursdays. As the local Hawes outstation (that did most Wensleydale services) was covering the service to Ripon market on a Thursday anyway, the main Richmond depot would have to cover the Friday duties of Hawes outbase, as well as operating their own regular Leyburn market day routes. All that for about 2 dozen pensioners with their National Transport Tokens.....(one for the kids, there).

Excellent! Never knew that. Many Thanks.

Not an area I frequently visited, but I do recall a couple of lovely rural routes worked from Hawes (the depot was actually at Gayle, if I recall correctly)

6080 - SHN80L - Castle Bolton, October 1985


6080 again - Middleham Bridge, October 1985


2864 - Bainbridge, October 1985


1218 - Gayle Garage, August 1991

 

[TheSel]

Could I ask somebody Welsh what the difference is between a market day and a Fair day? I associate fairs with waltzers, dodgems and hook-a-duck, but I doubt it was that.

I'm not an expert (and not Welsh, come to that, although I lived in North Wales for a few years in the late '70s) - but I understand a fair day was a somewhat larger and more formal affair - and possibly even had its origins in medieval times, when local taxes might fall due, whereas the market day was a more localised and relaxed event.

I put the question into a search engine and found this which seems to suggest I'm on the right lines. More than happy for anyone to expand or contradict, though.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Excellent! Never knew that. Many Thanks.

Not an area I frequently visited, but I do recall a couple of lovely rural routes worked from Hawes (the depot was actually at Gayle, if I recall correctly)

6080 - SHN80L - Castle Bolton, October 1985
View attachment 77521

6080 again - Middleham Bridge, October 1985
View attachment 77522

2864 - Bainbridge, October 1985
View attachment 77524

1218 - Gayle Garage, August 1991
View attachment 77523

Some excellent photos - I'll have travelled on those vehicles (and indeed, I recognise two drivers). The depot was at Gayle which is just past Hawes. The time point was listed in timetables as Hawes (Gayle Garage) but Gayle is a hamlet in its own right.

Historically, the outstation had one bus from Ripon and one from Richmond until 1981 with numerous journeys each day from the outstation and the home depot. After big cuts, you had a daily schools run on the 26 and 127 plus various additional runs to serve Leyburn, Hawes or Ripon markets. When the situation arose as I mentioned, Richmond depot would provide the extra vehicle to cover the 26, with Hawes providing two vehicles on the 127 - one to run to Ripon and one to cover the moved Leyburn market journeys - probably because of route learning etc.

 

[86247]

I was going back through the thread and it got me thinking about the vr on the A89,in all the time I've seen the 89 not once have I ever seen a crosville bus on it .In my old timetable it was a MPTE , crosville and Ribble joint service, again I've never seen a ribble bus on it . Was it just certain journeys that crosville and Ribble did.

 

[TheSel]

I was going back through the thread and it got me thinking about the vr on the A89,in all the time I've seen the 89 not once have I ever seen a crosville bus on it .In my old timetable it was a MPTE , crosville and Ribble joint service, again I've never seen a ribble bus on it . Was it just certain journeys that crosville and Ribble did.

Yes. It was a complex agreement, but basically Crosville ran some workings on the route until the closure of Edge Lane depot. For more details on this and other joint agreements, I fully recommend the 1992 book 'Crosville on Merseyside' by T B Maund. ISBN 0 86317 168 0.

 

[86247]

Thanks for the quick reply. The joint service's are a bit weird as some crosville buses never ran on the service. I used to live in Whiston near Prescot and the Halton service J61 as it was back then which was shopping city - whiston hospital was a joint service with crosville, and again never saw one on it. It was always a Halton east lancs RE or a national.

 

[TheSel]

Thanks for the quick reply. The joint service's are a bit weird as some crosville buses never ran on the service. I used to live in Whiston near Prescot and the Halton service J61 as it was back then which was shopping city - whiston hospital was a joint service with crosville, and again never saw one on it. It was always a Halton east lancs RE or a national.

Maybe you were just a tad unfortunate? I agree MOST (but by no means all) workings were done by Halton, but the J61 certainly had SOME Crosville workings, indeed SRG222 had a serious front end accident on that route in 1972/3 (I forget the exact date).

This from the '3 July 1977 until further notice' timetable shows the Halton-worked timings marked with an asterisk (*)