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Trivia: Britain's Strangest Bus Routes

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Statto

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On the face of it, the X6 between Poole and Bournemouth is an odd one. The 5 or 6 miles between them gets stretched out to 30 miles gallop through Dorset, reaching as far as Verwood before heading back for the coast.

My assumption is that it used to be two different routes which merged (Poole-Verwood, Bournemouth-Verwood). Image below is a rough guesstimate, btw.

View attachment 78050


There'a a couple of these type of routes on the Wirral, notably 413 Woodside-Seacombe, 414 Woodside-New Brighton, & evening & Sunday 423 Liverpool-Seacombe, however main point of the route is to connect Leasowe & Moreton with Upton, Arrowe Park Hospital, Birkenhead & Liscard rather than passengers going end to end as 409/410 & 411 are much much quicker Woodside to Seacombe[409/411], Liscard[409/410] & New Brighton[410/411] 413/414 both take around 70 minutes, 423 takes around 90 minutes, 409/410/411 take 20 to 35 minutes
 
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TheGrandWazoo

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It was and it wasn't! Before the X6, there was the 36 Bournemouth to Verwood and 37 Poole to Verwood, but before those they had the X36 doing the same circuitous route as now.

Would this be a long standing thing and a consequence from the mists of time? Bournemouth and Poole both had depots and the former closed (after a fire and then an MAP scheme) so it was probably a way of interworking the two routes?
 

Statto

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There'a a couple of these type of routes on the Wirral, notably 413 Woodside-Seacombe, 414 Woodside-New Brighton, & evening & Sunday 423 Liverpool-Seacombe, however main point of the route is to connect Leasowe & Moreton with Upton, Arrowe Park Hospital, Birkenhead & Liscard rather than passengers going end to end as 409/410 & 411 are much much quicker Woodside to Seacombe[409/411], Liscard[409/410] & New Brighton[410/411] 413/414 both take around 70 minutes, 423 takes around 90 minutes, 409/410/411 take 20 to 35 minutes

Just to add, there's a 418 Birkenhead-New Ferry which takes 60 minutes, & there's a much quicker routes in the 1/41/42 which take 10 to 15 minutes, 418 used to be much longer, when it was the 18 used to operate Seacombe-Mill Park taking about 1 hour 50 minutes, even when it became Woodside-Mill Park it still took 90 minutes when the quickest routes take around 30 to 45 minutes
 

nidave

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I'm surprised no one has mentioned bus 477 from Berwick to Lindisfarne. The timetable is completely dependent on the tides. Has anyone taken a trip on the route?
 

NorthOxonian

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I'm surprised no one has mentioned bus 477 from Berwick to Lindisfarne. The timetable is completely dependent on the tides. Has anyone taken a trip on the route?

I have, I took the X15 up from Newcastle to the stop at Beal, which is the last on the 477 before it turns off. On the way back I took the bus all the way to Berwick. In both cases the journey was fast and surprisingly busy - I wasn't really travelling in the peak tourist season!

The service varies in frequency - daily during the summer but only on Wednesdays and Saturdays during the winter.
 

aliceh

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Also remembered Yellow Buses route 89 that ran for a few years around the turn of the century. It was a limited stop service running from the village of Bransgore in the New Forest, via Christchurch and then onto Bournemouth via the spur road. The weirder part was how often it ran - one return journey a fortnight (every other Friday).

I assume it was to allow people from this one village a night out in Bournemouth to watch a show or something (left at 7.30pm, returned just after midnight), but I always found it a bizarre addition to the timetable.
 

Whisky Papa

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A strange route borne out of danger was between Richmond and Northallerton via Catterick Village.

It ran via the A1 south of Catterick for a stretch before diverting off to serve various villages. On its return, it had to cross the A1 in a dip with traffic approaching at speed.

It was eventually rerouted to run via Leeming Bar but not stopping and only on the return leg, so 10 mins longer in one direction.

I’m sure there are plenty of similar examples

One odd routing, supposedly for safety reasons, was the pre-deregulation Metro 516 between Halifax and Blackshaw Head. Buses from Halifax climbed directly up to Heptonstall, but on the return journey, they came down into Heptonstall village, around the estate then back up through Heptonstall to Slack. They then turned right to travel via Lee Wood Road down into Hebden Bridge. I first encountered this on a day trip to the Calder Valley in my bus-spotting schooldays (never imagining for a moment that I would one day live there and indeed drive this route!), and the driver told me the junction where the road from Heptonstall met Lee Wood Road was considered too dangerous to negotiate in a bus in the downhill direction.

Come deregulation and this seemingly became a safe manouevre overnight. The Halifax-Heptonstall section was split out as the 591, and the Hebden Bridge-Blackshaw Head section became minibus route H2. Both now ran directly downhill from Heptonstall, with the 591 converted to double-deck operation. Further, as it interworked with the 590 Rochdale-Halifax service, 1 of the 5 buses on the circuit was a GMT (later GM Buses North) vehicle from Rochdale.
 

adrock1976

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What's it called? It's called Cumbernauld
A route that appears to be strange in my new location is the 343 and the 343A that runs from Cumbernauld Town Centre south to Seafar and Carbrain respectively.

Both are very short circular services that takes around 6 to 12 minutes to complete for each route, which if you look on a map of the area, both Seafar Road and North Carbrain Road are the roads that run either side of Central Way, which is the main road that runs through the town centre.

Both of the above roads are a five minute walk from the town centre, which explains how hardly anyone uses both those buses including during normal times.
 

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Stagecoach in South Tyneside have a strange one, the 10 and 11. It runs in one direction as the 10 and the other as the 11. It isn't a circular route, so I've never understood why. It also goes massively round the houses, taking 80 minutes to go from South Shields to Jarrow. And at peak times it gets extended through the Tyne Tunnel to Cobalt.

Circuitous route, different numbers in different directions, and peak time extensions through a toll road tunnel. I think that's the full set of strange!
 

kez19

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Stagecoach in South Tyneside have a strange one, the 10 and 11. It runs in one direction as the 10 and the other as the 11. It isn't a circular route, so I've never understood why. It also goes massively round the houses, taking 80 minutes to go from South Shields to Jarrow. And at peak times it gets extended through the Tyne Tunnel to Cobalt.

Circuitous route, different numbers in different directions, and peak time extensions through a toll road tunnel. I think that's the full set of strange!

Isn't that the same when it runs out to Killingworth Shopping Centre via Forest Hall? 62/63 - one goes one way and the other opposite but the X63? goes the 62 route instead? (not a local but have used that service when I have visited Newcastle)
 

Tetchytyke

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Isn't that the same when it runs out to Killingworth Shopping Centre via Forest Hall? 62/63 - one goes one way and the other opposite but the X63? goes the 62 route instead? (not a local but have used that service when I have visited Newcastle)

The 10/11 are South Shields to Jarrow. It's a linear route, so I don't understand why its a 10 to Jarrow and an 11 from Jarrow.

With the Killingworth buses the X63 does a full loop of the estate, but as you say the 62 covers one side and the 63 covers the other. Bizarrely they don't cross the terminus at the bus station, so you can't do a full loop, the 62 and 63 are entirely separate.
 

kez19

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The 10/11 are South Shields to Jarrow. It's a linear route, so I don't understand why its a 10 to Jarrow and an 11 from Jarrow.

With the Killingworth buses the X63 does a full loop of the estate, but as you say the 62 covers one side and the 63 covers the other. Bizarrely they don't cross the terminus at the bus station, so you can't do a full loop, the 62 and 63 are entirely separate.


Its one of those things I have noticed in the Newcastle area, I might be off topic but thats similar with Go North East 53/54 too - one is clockwise and the other is anticlockwise but pending where you get the bus in the city centre is the direction you will go to Saltwell Park

Apologies in my knowledge here regarding Newcastle routes: regarding 10/11 Jarrow-South Shields seems that even both of them run out to Cobalt via Tyne Tunnel, you would think that maybe say the 10 one direction and 11 the other but who knows!

Also regarding 62/63 I notice they use the bus stop at the shopping centre (again my knowledge isn't great as I visit the area at times) I was more surprised by the X63 supposedly going on the 62 route round than the 63 route (surely you would rather associate the X63 with the 63 round than the 62?)

for me "locally" in Dundee Xplore Dundee did this with the Ninewells route at one point they ran the 15 (which was normally the city centre bus to town) ran it out to there but was a 17 back but yet they ran the 17s to city centre to whitfield again odd setup and backfired....
 
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CBlue

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One unusual service that hasn't operated for many years now was the 465 St. Neots -Southoe village and return. It only operated because the regular service through the village (St Neots - Huntingdon) only passed through on Huntingdon bound journeys, due to the right turn across the A1 being considered too dangerous.

As a result the service had the best part of five miles non-stop running along the A1, first heading Northbound to Buckden roundabout so the bus could turn and head back South to St Neots!
 

Megafuss

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Stagecoach in South Tyneside have a strange one, the 10 and 11. It runs in one direction as the 10 and the other as the 11. It isn't a circular route, so I've never understood why. It also goes massively round the houses, taking 80 minutes to go from South Shields to Jarrow. And at peak times it gets extended through the Tyne Tunnel to Cobalt.

Circuitous route, different numbers in different directions, and peak time extensions through a toll road tunnel. I think that's the full set of strange!

The 10 and 11 (with 10A and 11A variations can you believe!!) used to be circular from South Shields, Horsley Hill, Harton, Whiteleas, Simonside, Newcastle Road, Chichester and back to South Shields (and in reverse, I can't recall which one went clockwise or anti clockwise)

The current route is by and large what was used between Shields and Simonside when it was a circular.

From what I remember, GNE embarked on a retrenchment exercise after the Tyne and Wear Metro was extended to Sunderland. A load of GNE 500 series routes which served Jarrow were axed or amalgamated.

The 10/11 route was changed to effectively replace some of those old GNE routes between Simonside and Jarrow and thus the circle was broken. I have no idea why they never changed the number
 
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Welshman

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One odd routing, supposedly for safety reasons, was the pre-deregulation Metro 516 between Halifax and Blackshaw Head. Buses from Halifax climbed directly up to Heptonstall, but on the return journey, they came down into Heptonstall village, around the estate then back up through Heptonstall to Slack. They then turned right to travel via Lee Wood Road down into Hebden Bridge. I first encountered this on a day trip to the Calder Valley in my bus-spotting schooldays (never imagining for a moment that I would one day live there and indeed drive this route!), and the driver told me the junction where the road from Heptonstall met Lee Wood Road was considered too dangerous to negotiate in a bus in the downhill direction.

Come deregulation and this seemingly became a safe manouevre overnight. The Halifax-Heptonstall section was split out as the 591, and the Hebden Bridge-Blackshaw Head section became minibus route H2. Both now ran directly downhill from Heptonstall, with the 591 converted to double-deck operation. Further, as it interworked with the 590 Rochdale-Halifax service, 1 of the 5 buses on the circuit was a GMT (later GM Buses North) vehicle from Rochdale.


I agree with you about that junction!
I've driven down it several times and not been happy. It could easily be fixed with traffic-lights stopping traffic shooting up from Lee Wood Rd.

Concerning the Hebden Bridge area, there's another junction which I think is dangerous - the sharp left coming up from Dodd Naze to Old Town at Mount Skip - easier with the short solos TLC now uses, but tricky with the longer buses of the past. I remember one trip in the reverse direction where the driver misjudged the right turn, hit the wall and had to reverse - my heart was in my mouth as its a long drop down into the valley below. Interestingly, that bus terminated in Hebden Bridge and the driver did not do the return trip.
 

Welshman

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One odd routing, supposedly for safety reasons, was the pre-deregulation Metro 516 between Halifax and Blackshaw Head. Buses from Halifax climbed directly up to Heptonstall, but on the return journey, they came down into Heptonstall village, around the estate then back up through Heptonstall to Slack. They then turned right to travel via Lee Wood Road down into Hebden Bridge. I first encountered this on a day trip to the Calder Valley in my bus-spotting schooldays (never imagining for a moment that I would one day live there and indeed drive this route!), and the driver told me the junction where the road from Heptonstall met Lee Wood Road was considered too dangerous to negotiate in a bus in the downhill direction.

Come deregulation and this seemingly became a safe manouevre overnight. The Halifax-Heptonstall section was split out as the 591, and the Hebden Bridge-Blackshaw Head section became minibus route H2. Both now ran directly downhill from Heptonstall, with the 591 converted to double-deck operation. Further, as it interworked with the 590 Rochdale-Halifax service, 1 of the 5 buses on the circuit was a GMT (later GM Buses North) vehicle from Rochdale.

I agree with you about that junction! It could easily be fixed with traffic-lights controlling traffic coming up from Lee Wood Rd.

Another turn in the Hebden Bridge area I consider dangerous is the sharp left from Dodd Naze to Old Town at Mount Skip - easier with a short Solo of the type TLC now use, but I remember one journey in the opposite direction with a longer bus where the driver misjudged the turn, hit the wall and had to reverse. My heart was in my mouth as there's a steep drop down into the valley below. I think the driver must have been shaken too, as he didn't operate the next journey up from Hebden Bridge.
 

Statto

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Before d-reg Liverpool had plenty of routes to/from Pier Head that finished in C or D, C was via Church Street later Hood Street Gyrotory & Lord Street when Church Street was pedestrianised, D via Dale Street there was exceptions though.
 

Whisky Papa

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I agree with you about that junction! It could easily be fixed with traffic-lights controlling traffic coming up from Lee Wood Rd.

Another turn in the Hebden Bridge area I consider dangerous is the sharp left from Dodd Naze to Old Town at Mount Skip - easier with a short Solo of the type TLC now use, but I remember one journey in the opposite direction with a longer bus where the driver misjudged the turn, hit the wall and had to reverse. My heart was in my mouth as there's a steep drop down into the valley below. I think the driver must have been shaken too, as he didn't operate the next journey up from Hebden Bridge.

Yes, that is an awful junction - in fact, the whole Dodd Naze route is pretty hairy! When I started driving it in 1988 with Sherpas, the route only ever went to Dodd Naze, the Mount Skip bit came later in order to give Old Town an improved evening / Sunday service. I returned to regular minibus work in 2001, by which time we had Mercedes 709s, which in some ways were better - other drivers tended to get (and park) out of the way more readily, with the Sherpa they assumed it would fit through the same-sized gap as their Range Rover!

The other route to Old Town, turning right off the A6033 at Pecket Bar was also a pretty tight turn in a full-sized bus. I think this manouevre is now redundant, all buses (TLC Solos) normally going via Mount Skip these days.

The most hair-raising moment I had going downhill at Cross Lanes (where Heptonstall Road and Lee Wood Road meet) was one afternoon when the engine on my Olympian cut out just as I set off from the Stop line. The sudden loss of power steering was the most immediate problem! There were some teething troubles with the fuel system on these buses, sometimes leading to them not been fully-fueled and on other occasions (like mine) developing occasional air-locks.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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The most hair-raising moment I had going downhill at Cross Lanes (where Heptonstall Road and Lee Wood Road meet) was one afternoon when the engine on my Olympian cut out just as I set off from the Stop line. The sudden loss of power steering was the most immediate problem! There were some teething troubles with the fuel system on these buses, sometimes leading to them not been fully-fueled and on other occasions (like mine) developing occasional air-locks.

What about the brakes as well as the steering???
 

Fokx

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The 217 (old) in Merseyside was an unusual route in the sense that instead of directly traveling from Liverpool to Halewood, a journey that would usually take around 50 minutes, the bus went in completely the opposite direction! It formed a route that took around 2h30 to complete the full circuit as it went along already well served bus corridors via Fazakerley, Kirkby, Knowsley Village, Page Moss, Huyton, Bellevale and Gateacre Village

If someone was traveling from Fazakerley to Halewood, it would actually be faster to take two buses rather than catch the direct service and the route was dramatically scaled back by Stagecoach Merseyside who inherited the route from GTL and now operates solely Kirkby to Huyton (which takes around 35 minutes)
 

Whisky Papa

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What about the brakes as well as the steering???

I'd full air pressure when it happened, so no problem bring it to a stop at the kerb once past the junction, but the steering assistance was lost as soon as the engine cut out. It took two or three attempts to restart the engine, and it was fine after that, although I did of course report it. This problem with the Northern Coounties bodied Olympians was fixed pretty rapidly, I think a pipe was enlarged to aid the equalisation of air pressure inside the fuel tank. I'm afraid that beyond the basics, I would have to quote Donald Sutherland's tank-driver Oddball in Kelly's Heroes, "I only ride 'em, I don't know what makes 'em work."
 

TheGrandWazoo

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I'd full air pressure when it happened, so no problem bring it to a stop at the kerb once past the junction, but the steering assistance was lost as soon as the engine cut out. It took two or three attempts to restart the engine, and it was fine after that, although I did of course report it. This problem with the Northern Coounties bodied Olympians was fixed pretty rapidly, I think a pipe was enlarged to aid the equalisation of air pressure inside the fuel tank. I'm afraid that beyond the basics, I would have to quote Donald Sutherland's tank-driver Oddball in Kelly's Heroes, "I only ride 'em, I don't know what makes 'em work."


Phew - just didn't know if there were a few dabs followed by standing on them ;)
 

Statto

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The 217 (old) in Merseyside was an unusual route in the sense that instead of directly traveling from Liverpool to Halewood, a journey that would usually take around 50 minutes, the bus went in completely the opposite direction! It formed a route that took around 2h30 to complete the full circuit as it went along already well served bus corridors via Fazakerley, Kirkby, Knowsley Village, Page Moss, Huyton, Bellevale and Gateacre Village

If someone was traveling from Fazakerley to Halewood, it would actually be faster to take two buses rather than catch the direct service and the route was dramatically scaled back by Stagecoach Merseyside who inherited the route from GTL and now operates solely Kirkby to Huyton (which takes around 35 minutes)

I did that full 217 route a few times back in the day, it originates from the 17C Pier Head-Fazakerley which was extended to Halewood via most of the 192 in the late 80s, the 192 was cut to an evening & Sunday service, the 192 formed at d-reg when Merseybus diverted the 92 at Fazakerley to Penny Lane via the old 99[the 92 was Crosby-Halewood before d-reg], but Merseybus didn't register the Fazakerley-Halewood section, so the PTE introduced a tendered 192 Walton-Halewood.

The 217 took 75 to 90 minutes City Centre to Page Moss & Huyton around 1 hour 45 to Belle Vale when there are more frequent & quicker buses, so sad it's a shadow of it's former self.
 

61653 HTAFC

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For a while- quite recently!- First Bradford had a similar arrangenent on the 622 and 625 services. Many would start in Brighouse as a 625 or in Wyke as a 622 but then switch to the opposite at Bradford Interchange. Not even remotely confusing.

Now the Bradford- Brighouse and Eldwick/Baildon-Bradford services are split.
Going back 20+ years, the 622 had some journeys starting from Huddersfield bus station. Remember seeing it on the (static) display above the stand and thinking "Where on Earth is Eldwick when it's at home?!"
 

Llandudno

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I did that full 217 route a few times back in the day, it originates from the 17C Pier Head-Fazakerley which was extended to Halewood via most of the 192 in the late 80s, the 192 was cut to an evening & Sunday service, the 192 formed at d-reg when Merseybus diverted the 92 at Fazakerley to Penny Lane via the old 99[the 92 was Crosby-Halewood before d-reg], but Merseybus didn't register the Fazakerley-Halewood section, so the PTE introduced a tendered 192 Walton-Halewood.

The 217 took 75 to 90 minutes City Centre to Page Moss & Huyton around 1 hour 45 to Belle Vale when there are more frequent & quicker buses, so sad it's a shadow of it's former self.
In prederegulation days you get on the 92 with an OAP pass or Off Peak Saveaway just before the evening peak hour started and by the time you got off at the other end the off peak time restrictions were over!

Cheaper than heating the house in cold weather, but remember to take sandwiches with you....!
 

Welshman

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Another Calderdale route I find interesting is the 561/562 Ripponden Circular, run by Yorkshire Tiger.
It seems to be an amalgamation of several original routes, which on their own would now be unviable:-
Halifax-General Hospital via Skircoat Green;
Halifax-Copley;
Elland-Sowerby Bridge via Wakefield Rd;
Halifax - Mill Bank - Soyland - Ripponden;
Ripponden-Barkisland - Elland;
Halifax- West Vale- Norland Moorcock;
Halifax- West Vale - Barkisland - Krumlin.
-
The 561 runs Halifax-General Hospital-Copley-Wakefield Rd- Sowerby Bridge- Mill Bank-Soyland-Ripponden-Barkisland-Norland- West Vale- Halifax, with the 562 in the opposite direction. On my nostalgic trips back to Halifax I've sometimes had a ride on it, and enjoyed a panoramic trip through Calderdale and over the moors. I usually amaze the driver by being the only passenger staying on throughout, and must admit that after 1hour 20 minutes on a poorly-upholstered Tiger solo seat, I'm developing quite a headache!

I'm surprised it still survives, especially in these difficult times, but its timetable has remained almost intact.
 

goldenarrow

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Carousel Buses 102 route from High Wycombe to Heathrow Central via Uxbridge which has a bit of an identity crisis being classed as a bus route yet operated with coaches. By virtue, this means that it is one of the few routes where a Freedom pass is valid on a coach as it is still classed as a bus route.
 
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I was interested to see the comments about the Morebus (ex Wilts and Dorset) X6, and the same company (actually its Damory) subsidiary have a very peculiar service X8A.

The X8 is operated by the Morebus Ringwood depot. Most of the day (full Winter 2019-2020 timetable) the service runs from Poole to Verwood, on to Ringwood, then to Bournemouth via the Spur Road, avoiding Boscombe. There are early short journey to get buses from Ringwood to Bournemouth and Poole. Most of the day it is approximately hourly, but there are gaps whilst buses are diverted to school duties. During this time, there is also a half-hourly X£3 service from salisbury to Bournemouth via Ringwood, which also runs down the Srur Road. If you like fast running, the Enviro 400s and 400MMCs on both routes really get a move on. Early services from Bournemouth to Ringwood and later services from Ringwood to Bournemouth are operated in two parts, passengers having to change to or from an X3, which serves Boscombe.

The X8A is an oddity as an offshoot of the X8. The X8 is a service which seems to be a half Morebus, half Damory service. The service runs hourly with 2 dedicated Morebus liveried buses, although at least one of them is kept overnight at the Damory depot at Pimperne. When one is unavailable, the normal substitute is a Damory liveried bus. The service travels from Poole to Blandford mainly along the A350, then after visiting Tesco's, it becomes a town service, visiting he relatively new Lidl shop, then back to the town centre, then Teso's and back to Poole.

When the Lidl store was being built, there were local concerns about how the clientele would get there. Some money was put aside for a bus service which eventually emerged as the X8A operated by Damory. The route was basically the X8 town loop, but in the opposite direction, running every 20 minutes, apart from a hiatus mid-afternoon when the bus went off for school duty. Unfortunately the towns people had expected a free bus, like the Asda bus in Poole, but it wasn't free. Then people complained that the service stopped 50 yards from the Lidl entrance, so it was diverted through the car park to a stop near the door. They then complained that it didn't serve Tesco's, then they complained that you couldn't get back from Lidl to some of the earlier stops without paying twice for going through the town centre. The result of this is that we have a bus going round and round the town usually carrying no passengers. The most I have ever seen on it is 2. The service is paid for by a subsidy directly or indirectly paid fr by Lidl. I don't give it long!
 

Glenn1969

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Another Calderdale route I find interesting is the 561/562 Ripponden Circular, run by Yorkshire Tiger.
It seems to be an amalgamation of several original routes, which on their own would now be unviable:-
Halifax-General Hospital via Skircoat Green;
Halifax-Copley;
Elland-Sowerby Bridge via Wakefield Rd;
Halifax - Mill Bank - Soyland - Ripponden;
Ripponden-Barkisland - Elland;
Halifax- West Vale- Norland Moorcock;
Halifax- West Vale - Barkisland - Krumlin.
-
The 561 runs Halifax-General Hospital-Copley-Wakefield Rd- Sowerby Bridge- Mill Bank-Soyland-Ripponden-Barkisland-Norland- West Vale- Halifax, with the 562 in the opposite direction. On my nostalgic trips back to Halifax I've sometimes had a ride on it, and enjoyed a panoramic trip through Calderdale and over the moors. I usually amaze the driver by being the only passenger staying on throughout, and must admit that after 1hour 20 minutes on a poorly-upholstered Tiger solo seat, I'm developing quite a headache!

I'm surprised it still survives, especially in these difficult times, but its timetable has remained almost intact.
Add on the 563 Halifax- Copley- West Vale- Elland- Upper Edge- Rastrick Common- Brighouse

And the 343 which covers the following:

Halifax- Greetland
Lower Greetland- Upper Greetland- Elland
Elland- Elsinore Avenue- Blackley
Elland- Blackley- Lindley- HRI
Ainley Top Village and Birchencliffe hamlet
Weatherhill- HRI- Huddersfield

All in one route. One which I am very surprised has survived the pandemic intact so far
 
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