Trivia / Discussion - worst service description on bustimes

[Teapot42]

I was searching for a local service on Bustimes from just the service number, and it took me longer than it should to find it, mainly because the description is 'Main Road - Bus Station' - can anyone find services with an even less useful description?

For reference, it's the Stagecoach Yorkshire 48, and yes, I know that those are strictly speaking the start and end points, but without context you have no idea *which* main road or bus station is being referred to.

 

[borage]

There are a few "Origin - Destination", but none better than West Coast Motors's "426 - Destination - Origin".

 

[Hyebone]

Bustimes.org is a great example of a GAGO service (garbage in, garbage out). It merely shows data that BODS (or other sources) provides.

But yes, I agree that the data provided can be absolutely poor. The 48 for example showing this is ridiculous

There are a few "Origin - Destination", but none better than West Coast Motors's "426 - Destination - Origin".

Absolutely class that

 

[Teapot42]

There are a few "Origin - Destination", but none better than West Coast Motors's "426 - Destination - Origin".

Interesting, that does show that it isn't automatically picking up the first and last stop details. Even odder that it's showing them what you'd consider to be the wrong way around.

 

[Stan Drews]

Bustimes.org is a great example of a GAGO service (garbage in, garbage out). It merely shows data that BODS (or other sources) provides.

But yes, I agree that the data provided can be absolutely poor. The 48 for example showing this is ridiculous

Absolutely class that

Although the 426 start-end points shows perfectly normally on the operators own website/app which will be fed from the same core scheduling data, so is it really as simple as garbage in, garbage out?

 

[Yorkshireguy]

Although the 426 start-end points shows perfectly normally on the operators own website/app which will be fed from the same core scheduling data, so is it really as simple as garbage in, garbage out?

I have no knowledge of Passenger's capabilities, but it looks like there are manual overrides for formatting (e.g. McGill's adding colours and logos to a lot of routes), renaming and route merging. Passenger seems to have ambiguous but varying levels of involvement for exporting open data - some looks raw from the operator, other (realtime?) bits they may sanitise or generate - so these overrides won't be reflected in raw feeds. Bustimes.org does include a lot of edge cases for handling bad data in, but I don't know whether any route names are manually overridden or not.

The slightly simple answer is that it is as simple as "garbage in garbage out" from a bustimes.org perspective (the bustimes.org code is available for all to see), but with the complexities, UK-specificness and multiple versions of the TransXChange (TXC) format leading to so many possible pitfalls it's unsurprising that there's garbage going in. It'll really depend on the combination of the operator's systems being used to produce the outputs and the transformations the data goes through before eventually becoming TXC and GTFS (the format used for Google Maps), which will be done as the very last step. Decentralised data publishing isn't easy at its simplest, nevermind with formats as badly over-engineered as TXC.

For what it's worth, the below is taken straight from West Coast Motors' own TXC data which says that it's generated by Optibus. However, I've seen similar examples showing Origin/Destination in the TXC data with seemingly no override that aren't broken (e.g. Xplore's 23, which appears on sites as "Woodside circular" instead). Could be Traveline National Dataset (TNDS) involvement that helps, but I haven't looked.

Spoiler: Code snippet (hidden to be compact)

<StandardService>
        <Origin>Origin</Origin>
        <Destination>Destination</Destination>
        <JourneyPattern id="JP458">
          <DestinationDisplay>Achnamara, Unclassified, At Number 5</DestinationDisplay>
          <Direction>outbound</Direction>
          <Description>Lochgilphead, Lochnell St shoreside - Achnamara, Unclassified, At Number 5</Description>
          <RouteRef>RT440</RouteRef>
          <JourneyPatternSectionRefs>JPS184</JourneyPatternSectionRefs>
        </JourneyPattern>

 

[Hyebone]

Although the 426 start-end points shows perfectly normally on the operators own website/app which will be fed from the same core scheduling data, so is it really as simple as garbage in, garbage out?

Welcome to be corrected, but I reckon there'll be instances of operators uploading the bare minimum required to BODS and actually putting some effort into their own apps.

 

[Kite159]

I was searching for a local service on Bustimes from just the service number, and it took me longer than it should to find it, mainly because the description is 'Main Road - Bus Station' - can anyone find services with an even less useful description?

For reference, it's the Stagecoach Yorkshire 48, and yes, I know that those are strictly speaking the start and end points, but without context you have no idea *which* main road or bus station is being referred to.

I've seen some services described as 'Bus Station to Bus Station' before without giving much clue into where it actually goes.

(Might have been at Crewe with an old arriva route towards Northwich)

 

[Statto]

I've seen some services described as 'Bus Station to Bus Station' before without giving much clue into where it actually goes.

(Might have been at Crewe with an old arriva route towards Northwich)

How about this one Arriva Wales, 5C Bus Station to Parade Street, doesn't say what Town until you bring up the service & the Town in question is Wrexham, & not the 5C Bangor to Caernarfon

5C - Bus Station - Parade Street

Arriva Wales

bustimes.org

 

[northken]

The Dublin Bus 16D service: 16D - Airport - Beaumont Village - Ballinteer not

The description suggests it serves Beaumont Village and (in not so great English) that it doesn’t serve Ballinteer, when it’s the other way around.

 

[stevieinselby]

Hodgsons (based in Barnard Castle) are all a bit Goldilocks and The Three Bears: https://bustimes.org/operators/hodgsons

They have some descriptions that are ridiculously detailed:
79: Barnard Castle Galgate, Egglestone Abbey, Rokeby Park, Greta Bridge, Barningham, Newsham, Dalton, Gayles, Kirby Hill, Whashton, Ravensworth, Gilling West, Richmond Marketplace
89: Bishop Auckland Bus station, Princes Street, Grove Road, Bishop Auckland College, Escombe Village, Bedburn Drive, Bishop College, Grove Road, Princes St, Bishop Auckland bus station

They have some that are pointlessly brief:
147: Bus Station Stand 2 - Market Place
150: Bus Station Stand 4 - Market Place
155: Market Place - Market Place
159: Market Place - Bus Station Stand 3
(which are, respectively, Ripon to Thirsk, Ripon to Thirsk, Bedale to Leyburn, and Richmond to Ripon)

And they have some that are just right!
80: Northallerton - Stokesley
87: Toft Hill - Bishop Auckland

Strangely, several of the routes that they run for North Yorkshire, it just returns a list of stops and "Sorry, no journeys found" (eg 159), but if you go into the vehicle tracking then the journeys made are linked to the timetable.

 

[markymark2000]

Strangely, several of the routes that they run for North Yorkshire, it just returns a list of stops and "Sorry, no journeys found" (eg 159), but if you go into the vehicle tracking then the journeys made are linked to the timetable.

That is because Hodgsons haven't put in the days of operation for the trips. The trips exist in the transxchange but as bustimes doesn't know what days the trips run, it can't show a timetable.

Hodgsons have been told via BODS feedback but they are just another company burying their heads in the sand and not wanting to comply properly with the law.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It's more complex than garbage-in-garbage-out because the systems are more complex than they need to be. But there's definitely an element of garbage which one, or more, systems can't seem to filter out.

Looking at the 7 Darlington-Durham is an interesting example. Bustimes list this, correctly, as Darlington-Durham, as does the Arriva app. But Google Maps describes it as Tubwell Row-Bus Station Stand L.

How about this one Arriva Wales, 5C Bus Station to Parade Street, doesn't say what Town until you bring up the service & the Town in question is Wrexham, & not the 5C Bangor to Caernarfon

Another one where's it's obviously more complex, as the related 5 and 5E buses are shown as Wrexham-Llangollen. And the 5C doesn't seemingly go to Parade Street in Llangollen either!

 

[Statto]

Another one where's it's obviously more complex, as the related 5 and 5E buses are shown as Wrexham-Llangollen. And the 5C doesn't seemingly go to Parade Street in Llangollen either!

The 5C is a School/College service as the Arriva timetable has it running term time only, it's longer than the 5/5E too

Another awful one is the 685 Carlisle - Newcastle timetable, try & understand the timetable layout it if you're not a regular passenger

https://bustimes.org/services/685-brampton-hexham

Here's the miles better & how it should be laid out, the official Stagecoach timetable.

https://tiscon-maps-stagecoachbus.s3.amazonaws.com/Timetables/Cumbria/Carlisle/CNL%20685%201124%20WEB.pdf

 

[markymark2000]

Another awful one is the 685 Carlisle - Newcastle timetable, try & understand the timetable layout it if you're not a regular passenger

https://bustimes.org/services/685-brampton-hexham

Here's the miles better & how it should be laid out, the official Stagecoach timetable.

https://tiscon-maps-stagecoachbus.s3.amazonaws.com/Timetables/Cumbria/Carlisle/CNL 685 1124 WEB.pdf

That's because between the 2 Stagecoach divisions, they have both set the inbound/outbound directions to be the opposite way. North East outbound is towards Carlisle and inbound towards Newcastle, and vice versa. The alternative would be the routes would be split so you'd only see NE or CNL trips.

It's a horrible situation and Stagecoach ignore most feedback on their data and therefore it will not get fixed for a while.

 

[Teapot42]

That's because between the 2 Stagecoach divisions, they have both set the inbound/outbound directions to be the opposite way. North East outbound is towards Carlisle and inbound towards Newcastle, and vice versa. The alternative would be the routes would be split so you'd only see NE or CNL trips.

It's a horrible situation and Stagecoach ignore most feedback on their data and therefore it will not get fixed for a while.

The Worksop to Chesterfield 77 seems a little bit better. They can at least agree on the direction (or Bustimes is clever enough to fix it) but there are intermediate stops that Stagecoach Yorkshire are shown as serving which Stagecoach East Midlands don't. Whether that is correct (seems unlikely) I don't know. Oddly, it seems to show Stagecoach Yorkshire will only pick up at Clowne Tesco, which also seems unlikely.

Until recently these two were listed as separate services, as were the FSY / Hulleys 272, which now shows up as a combined route. The latter must surely be a bustimes thing - if two operators in the same group can't decide on a common format I'd be very surprised if a major opco and an indy who struggle with anything technical at the best of times can.

 

[markymark2000]

The Worksop to Chesterfield 77 seems a little bit better. They can at least agree on the direction (or Bustimes is clever enough to fix it) but there are intermediate stops that Stagecoach Yorkshire are shown as serving which Stagecoach East Midlands don't. Whether that is correct (seems unlikely) I don't know.

Both areas have towards Worksop set up as 'outbound' and towards Chesterfield as 'inbound'. Stops is a big issue as Stagecoach East Midlands data is an absolute mess and has been for ages. They ignore most bods feedback and have limited-no intention of fixing big issues.

Oddly, it seems to show Stagecoach Yorkshire will only pick up at Clowne Tesco, which also seems unlikely.

The relevant people are now aware to look at it. Stagecoach Yorkshire data is normally really good and correct so I trust they will resolve it quickly.

Until recently these two were listed as separate services, as were the FSY / Hulleys 272, which now shows up as a combined route. The latter must surely be a bustimes thing - if two operators in the same group can't decide on a common format I'd be very surprised if a major opco and an indy who struggle with anything technical at the best of times can.

Bustimes can manually merge/unmerge services to create fuller timetables.

 

[Hyebone]

Deleted

 

[Jimmi]

An odd one I found earlier is for Select Bus Services, 96, 96A - TELFORD or Telford - Shrewsbury: https://bustimes.org/services/96-telford-shrewsbury

Worst I found was the Blackburn community transport operator 'Travel Assist' who now have some services in Blackburn which have no descriptions on bustimes: https://bustimes.org/operators/travel-assist

One that had me questioning my sanity when looking on Google Maps for buses out of Tavistock one day was service 55 which Google shows as running to "Who'd Have Thought" bustimes spoils that by stating the 55 runs to the village of Milton Combe, sure enough, like many bus stop names, it's a pub/Inn - The Who'd Have Thought It Inn: https://bustimes.org/services/55-tavistock-walkhampton-meavy-yelverton-buckland

 

[markymark2000]

An odd one I found earlier is for Select Bus Services, 96, 96A - TELFORD or Telford - Shrewsbury: https://bustimes.org/services/96-telford-shrewsbury

Select, one of the worst operators for their bus open data (and an operator I'd love for the TC to shut down for dismal service and lack of compliance with open data laws), have put the 'origin' for the 96 as 'Telford' and 96A as 'TELFORD' and so because the 96/96A are merged into one timetable, it shows both descriptions.

 

[JKP]

Select, one of the worst operators for their bus open data (and an operator I'd love for the TC to shut down for dismal service and lack of compliance with open data laws), have put the 'origin' for the 96 as 'Telford' and 96A as 'TELFORD' and so because the 96/96A are merged into one timetable, it shows both descriptions.

Looking at Select timetables I would question whether the intermediate points have accurate times against them. There appears to be a fair amount of running time between the penultimate timing point and terminus when compared to the reverse journey time. Some journeys also have no allowance for serving points off the main route or have the same journey times between direct points as those deviating.

 

[markymark2000]

Looking at Select timetables I would question whether the intermediate points have accurate times against them. There appears to be a fair amount of running time between the penultimate timing point and terminus when compared to the reverse journey time. Some journeys also have no allowance for serving points off the main route or have the same journey times between direct points as those deviating.

If you go through Selects open data, there are shed loads of issues. Far too many to list here. They are absolute cowboys and when confronted, they ignore you or they blame everyone else for their faults. Sadly some local authorities love throwing taxpayers money at these law breaking operators and no one in LAs is held accountable for awarding contracts to operators who knowingly and willingly break the law.

There appears to be a fair amount of running time between the penultimate timing point and terminus when compared to the reverse journey time.

Select have deliberately vague timetables so that the traffic commissioner can't penalise them for their shocking reliability along the routes. Cowboy operator doing all they can to not get caught out by their shoddy service and inability to create proper timetables.

 

[py_megapixel]

Perhaps not strictly following OP's criteria as it isn't on Bustimes.org but the live departures section in First's app, but I think it bears mentioning how ridiculous some of First South Yorkshire's destinations are.

"120 to Park & Ride" and "120k to Roundabout" spring to mind. But those pale in comparison to the 51, which just shows "51 to Terminus"! (well, obviously...)

Also in South Yorkshire, an honourable mention goes to the SC1 service (https://bustimes.org/services/sc1-sheffield-city-centre-cirlce) - a circular route that has apparently forgotten how to spell the word "circle"

 

[JD2168]

Perhaps not strictly following OP's criteria as it isn't on Bustimes.org but the live departures section in First's app, but I think it bears mentioning how ridiculous some of First South Yorkshire's destinations are.

"120 to Park & Ride" and "120k to Roundabout" spring to mind. But those pale in comparison to the 51, which just shows "51 to Terminus"! (well, obviously...)

Also in South Yorkshire, an honourable mention goes to the SC1 service (https://bustimes.org/services/sc1-sheffield-city-centre-cirlce) - a circular route that has apparently forgotten how to spell the word "circle"

Try the 315 which run from Dobcaster to Edlington on BusTimes