Trivia: Getting around London the long way

[flatly]

I'm curious, assuming any starting station outside the M25, would it be possible to circle the entirety of London via train while remaining outside the M25 (how will you get over the Thames on the East side?)

And what's the minimum number of changes that would be necessary.

 

[Trainfan344]

On the East Side, you would have to cross under/over the Section where the Road isn't designated as M25 to get to a point you could cross the water I would presume.

 

[JamesRowden]

On the East Side, you would have to cross under/over the Section where the Road isn't designated as M25 to get to a point you could cross the water I would presume.

Going in on HS1 to Stratford International and coming back out on C2C via Rainham would work.

Off the top of my head:

- Stratford International
- West Ham
- Southend
- Shenfield
- Norwich
- Manchester
- Southampton
- Brighton
- Ashford International

 

[yorkie]

- Norwich
- Manchester
- Southampton

No need to go anywhere near as far out as those places. Cambridge, Peterborough, Leicester, Birmingham, Reading would do the trick.

 

[JamesRowden]

No need to go anywhere near as far out as those places. Cambridge, Peterborough, Leicester, Birmingham, Reading would do the trick.

The question asked for the fewest number of changes rather than the shortest route.

 

[JBuchananGB]

Stratford and West Ham are inside the M25. The crossing point east of London has to Gravesend, by ferry to Tilbury, then to Southend Central, Southend Victoria, Shenfield, Ipswich, Ely, Birmingham.

Other way from Gravesend, Strood, Redhill, Reading, Oxford, Birmingham.

Haven't worked out the exact journeys.

 

[JamesRowden]

Stratford and West Ham are inside the M25. The crossing point east of London has to Gravesend, by ferry to Tilbury, then to Southend Central, Southend Victoria, Shenfield, Ipswich, Ely, Birmingham.

Other way from Gravesend, Strood, Redhill, Reading, Oxford, Birmingham.

Haven't worked out the exact journeys.

A ferry isn't a train.

The Ashford-Stratford and WestHam-Southend sections of my route cross over each other as they cross the A282 (the Dartford Crossing). You can subsequently remove 2 changes from my route if you allow the route to start and end on a train.

 

[JBuchananGB]

However, train tickets can be purchased, e.g. From Strood to Tilbury Town routed via the ferry, so this is a rail journey, just as a journey to Isle of Wight via train and ferry could be considered a rail journey.

 

[yorkie]

This is a problem with some 'Trivia' threads; the original posts need to be well-defined to avoid these ambiguities.

 

[Busaholic]

A ferry isn't a train.

The Ashford-Stratford and WestHam-Southend sections of my route cross over each other as they cross the A282 (the Dartford Crossing). You can subsequently remove 2 changes from my route if you allow the route to start and end on a train.

The Tilbury to Gravesend ferry route was opened by the London, Tilbury and Southend Railway specifically for its train passengers in about 1855, and was operated by British Rail up to about 1984. When I went on it for the first and last time in 1983 it was certainly B.R. and, unlike most other river ferries in the UK, I'd say its main purpose has always been to aid rail passengers, particularly on the Essex side.

 

[JamesRowden]

The Tilbury to Gravesend ferry route was opened by the London, Tilbury and Southend Railway specifically for its train passengers in about 1855, and was operated by British Rail up to about 1984. When I went on it for the first and last time in 1983 it was certainly B.R. and, unlike most other river ferries in the UK, I'd say its main purpose has always been to aid rail passengers, particularly on the Essex side.

It still doesn't make a ferry a train.

To me the description of the question seemed more like 'only using trains' rather than 'only using train tickets'.

 

[JBuchananGB]

I think the OP will have to adjudicate on which compromise he is willing to accept in solving his challenge. Either to travel exclusively by train, and through the area enclosed by the M25 with a change of train at Stratford, or to avoid the area inside the M25 and travel by a connecting ferry link which has been there for a long time and over which train tickets are valid and can be purchased!

The part of the journey from Redhill to Shenfield clockwise should be the same whichever option is chosen for crossing the Thames.

Redhill to Reading - Great Western service Gatwick to Reading
Reading to Birmingham New Street - Cross Country Service Reading to Newcastle
Birmingham New Street to Cambridge - Cross Country service B'ham to Stansted Airport
Cambridge to Ipswich - Greater Anglia service
Ipswich to Shenfield - Greater Anglia service Ipswich to Liverpool Street.

Now from Shenfield to Redhill - via Stratford

stay on the last mentioned train above to Stratford.
Stratford International to Ashford International - Southeastern service
Ashford to Tonbridge - Southeastern service Dover to London
Tonbridge to Redhill - Southern service Tonbridge to London Victoria

Alternatively from Shenfield to Redhill via Tilbury ferry
Shenfield to Southend Victoria - Greater Anglia Service
Southend Central to Tilbury Town - C2C Service
Tilbury Town - Tilbury Riverside - Bus
Tilbury Riverside - Gravesend Piers - Ferry
Gravesend to Strood - Southeastern service Charing Cross to Gillingham
Strood to Tonbridge - Southeastern service
Tonbridge to Redhill - Southern service Tonbridge to London Victoria

So there you have it. Much simpler to trespass inside greater London than to avoid it!

 

[Busaholic]

I think the OP will have to adjudicate on which compromise he is willing to accept in solving his challenge. Either to travel exclusively by train, and through the area enclosed by the M25 with a change of train at Stratford, or to avoid the area inside the M25 and travel by a connecting ferry link which has been there for a long time and over which train tickets are valid and can be purchased!

The part of the journey from Redhill to Shenfield clockwise should be the same whichever option is chosen for crossing the Thames.

Redhill to Reading - Great Western service Gatwick to Reading
Reading to Birmingham New Street - Cross Country Service Reading to Newcastle
Birmingham New Street to Cambridge - Cross Country service B'ham to Stansted Airport
Cambridge to Ipswich - Greater Anglia service
Ipswich to Shenfield - Greater Anglia service Ipswich to Liverpool Street.

Now from Shenfield to Redhill - via Stratford

stay on the last mentioned train above to Stratford.
Stratford International to Ashford International - Southeastern service
Ashford to Tonbridge - Southeastern service Dover to London
Tonbridge to Redhill - Southern service Tonbridge to London Victoria

Alternatively from Shenfield to Redhill via Tilbury ferry
Shenfield to Southend Victoria - Greater Anglia Service
Southend Central to Tilbury Town - C2C Service
Tilbury Town - Tilbury Riverside - Bus
Tilbury Riverside - Gravesend Piers - Ferry
Gravesend to Strood - Southeastern service Charing Cross to Gillingham
Strood to Tonbridge - Southeastern service
Tonbridge to Redhill - Southern service Tonbridge to London Victoria

So there you have it. Much simpler to trespass inside greater London than to avoid it!

I think if the OP wishes to be a purist and avoid the railway-related ferry crossing he should be permitted to walk between Tilbury and Gravesend instead.

 

[JamesRowden]

I think the OP will have to adjudicate on which compromise he is willing to accept in solving his challenge. Either to travel exclusively by train, and through the area enclosed by the M25 with a change of train at Stratford, or to avoid the area inside the M25 and travel by a connecting ferry link which has been there for a long time and over which train tickets are valid and can be purchased!

The part of the journey from Redhill to Shenfield clockwise should be the same whichever option is chosen for crossing the Thames.

Redhill to Reading - Great Western service Gatwick to Reading
Reading to Birmingham New Street - Cross Country Service Reading to Newcastle
Birmingham New Street to Cambridge - Cross Country service B'ham to Stansted Airport
Cambridge to Ipswich - Greater Anglia service
Ipswich to Shenfield - Greater Anglia service Ipswich to Liverpool Street.

Now from Shenfield to Redhill - via Stratford

stay on the last mentioned train above to Stratford.
Stratford International to Ashford International - Southeastern service
Ashford to Tonbridge - Southeastern service Dover to London
Tonbridge to Redhill - Southern service Tonbridge to London Victoria

Alternatively from Shenfield to Redhill via Tilbury ferry
Shenfield to Southend Victoria - Greater Anglia Service
Southend Central to Tilbury Town - C2C Service
Tilbury Town - Tilbury Riverside - Bus
Tilbury Riverside - Gravesend Piers - Ferry
Gravesend to Strood - Southeastern service Charing Cross to Gillingham
Strood to Tonbridge - Southeastern service
Tonbridge to Redhill - Southern service Tonbridge to London Victoria

So there you have it. Much simpler to trespass inside greater London than to avoid it!

Changing at Reading/Redhill/Tonbridge/Strood is more changes than Southampton/Brighton/Ashford (Ashford has an hourly through service to Gravesend).

Changing at Ipswich/Cambridge/Birmingham is more changes than changing at Norwich and Manchester.

 

[JamesRowden]

I think if the OP wishes to be a purist and avoid the railway-related ferry crossing he should be permitted to walk between Tilbury and Gravesend instead.

Or someone could try to run through a Dartford Tunnel at the start/end of the journey.

 

[JBuchananGB]

Goodness me that is a scenic route from Gravesend to Ashford. 2h26m but no change of train. Alternatively 32m with change of train at Ebbsfleet. These are the Southeatstern Javelin trains which actually run a circular route out from St. Pancras to Ramsgate and back to St. Pancras.

I concur that to reduce the number of changes the route across to Southampton, then to Manchester, and from Manchester to Norwich is a winner.
Southampton to Norwich in just two trains!

 

[Roast Veg]

How long would this take? If it's close to viable I may try it some day, though my route would dip into the M25 on the Upminster to Romford. East West rail would shave off some complexity as well, and might be open before I ever had the chance.