Trivia: Minimalist Bus Stations

[AY1975]

Eckington bus station in north Derbyshire, between Sheffield and Chesterfield, consists of just a layby with, I think, three bus stops. IIRC two of them have an ordinary bus shelter, and there is also a disused public toilet block (closed along with almost all others in the District of North-East Derbyshire about ten years ago) which has a roof that sticks out and forms a canopy so doubles as a shelter.

It does have a Co-op supermarket next to it, though.

Belper, south Derbyshire and Workington, north-west Cumbria bus stations are also pretty small, and they're almost like bus garages that double as bus stations.

 

[Ken H]

Anyone remember Ambleside bus stn
small station, with garage sort of underneath. biult on a steep hillside

 

[johnnychips]

New Mills: two shelters, two benches and an (accurate) notice board, with space for three taxis.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Eckington bus station in north Derbyshire, between Sheffield and Chesterfield, consists of just a layby with, I think, three bus stops. IIRC two of them have an ordinary bus shelter, and there is also a disused public toilet block (closed along with almost all others in the District of North-East Derbyshire about ten years ago) which has a roof that sticks out and forms a canopy so doubles as a shelter.

It does have a Co-op supermarket next to it, though.

Belper, south Derbyshire and Workington, north-west Cumbria bus stations are also pretty small, and they're almost like bus garages that double as bus stations.

Belper was/is the depot though think all maintenance has been done out of Derby for many years.

Workington was the UK’s first purpose built bus station but the car park next to it on Murray Road... that’s where the depot was!

 

[delt1c]

Surely this is a classic example of privatisation gone wrong.Purpose built bus stations / interchanges closed and replaced with roadside laybys, why because savings on balance sheet takes preference to passenger requirements. Profit before amenities

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Surely this is a classic example of privatisation gone wrong.Purpose built bus stations / interchanges closed and replaced with roadside laybys, why because savings on balance sheet takes preference to passenger requirements. Profit before amenities

In some instances though it should be noted that Southampton was almost closed and sold in NBC days, long before Stagecoach. Also, some bus companies in the golden age recognised the cost of bus stations and so built relatively few - Southdown and M&D being examples.

Guess it depends on the location. Salisbury was a sad loss as services were scattered but perhaps Lymington less so. Also, has to be said..... many were grim places to wait.

 

[radamfi]

Surely this is a classic example of privatisation gone wrong.Purpose built bus stations / interchanges closed and replaced with roadside laybys, why because savings on balance sheet takes preference to passenger requirements. Profit before amenities

There is also little or no evidence that bus stations mean more passengers. They may even have a negative effect on patronage.

 

[delt1c]

A clasic reason why public transport should be operated for the "public" and not the profiteer. If it can make a profit in private ownership , why cant it be profitable in public ownership where profits returned to public and run for public

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

A clasic reason why public transport should be operated for the "public" and not the profiteer. If it can make a profit in private ownership , why cant it be profitable in public ownership where profits returned to public and run for public

Not quite certain what you mean by it being profitable?

There is also little or no evidence that bus stations mean more passengers. They may even have a negative effect on patronage.

Struggling to understand how a well appointed, safe, dry, centrally located bus station would have a negative effect on passengers vs. a load of roadside stops, especially for rural or inter-urban services where headways are wider and passengers may need to wait for longer.

That said, there are some rather excessive structures usually built by PTEs (oddly enough).

 

[radamfi]

Struggling to understand how a well appointed, safe, dry, centrally located bus station would have a negative effect on passengers vs. a load of roadside stops, especially for rural or inter-urban services where headways are wider and passengers may need to wait for longer.

They are often perceived as being havens for anti-social behaviour (even if they are not in reality) and they can be particularly unpleasant in the evening and on Sunday when there are few other passengers. There have been attempts to mitigate the effect of poor perceived social safety by closing parts of bus stations at quiet times, or to employ security guards. The fact that such steps are considered necessary indicates that there is a problem that needs solving.

 

[Megafuss]

Surely this is a classic example of privatisation gone wrong.Purpose built bus stations / interchanges closed and replaced with roadside laybys, why because savings on balance sheet takes preference to passenger requirements. Profit before amenities

You do know that the vast majority of bus station are actually publicly owned don't you? So when the land is sold for development, it's the council that trousers the money.

 

[Dai Corner]

You do know that the vast majority of bus station are actually publicly owned don't you? So when the land is sold for development, it's the council that trousers the money.

They are now. The ones that were privatised in the 1980s were mostly sold off weren't they? One such I used frequently was Weston-super-Mare, a prime site on the seafront. The stops are now on the promenade and the depot on an an industrial estate.

 

[carlberry]

A clasic reason why public transport should be operated for the "public" and not the profiteer. If it can make a profit in private ownership , why cant it be profitable in public ownership where profits returned to public and run for public

All you need is to vote in a government that is willing to do that and all your prayers will be answered!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

They are often perceived as being havens for anti-social behaviour (even if they are not in reality) and they can be particularly unpleasant in the evening and on Sunday when there are few other passengers. There have been attempts to mitigate the effect of poor perceived social safety by closing parts of bus stations at quiet times, or to employ security guards. The fact that such steps are considered necessary indicates that there is a problem that needs solving.

That’s the same as rail stations though. I can remember doing a piece of work on a rail line and the approach was to try to attract taxi firms into stations so there was some presence to ward off antisocial behaviour.

I did say that safety was a pre-requisite and even then, I’d venture that having a relatively dry place with facilities is a positive step. Creations like Ossett or Dinnington are the anthesis of minimalist and are arguably too extensive but having an appropriately sized, safe place to wait in the right location seems to be a positive thing.

It would naturally be great if all were colocated with rail stations (as per Hull or Bath) but sadly many stations are peripherally located as even the Victorians didn’t have the money.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

They are now. The ones that were privatised in the 1980s were mostly sold off weren't they? One such I used frequently was Weston-super-Mare, a prime site on the seafront. The stops are now on the promenade and the depot on an an industrial estate.

Yes but many were awful. Don’t know about Weston but Darlington was also a combined depot and bus station. Unloved and grotty even in NBC days. Weston is one of those places that suffers from not having a central point for services.

 

[175mph]

That’s the same as rail stations though. I can remember doing a piece of work on a rail line and the approach was to try to attract taxi firms into stations so there was some presence to ward off antisocial behaviour.

I did say that safety was a pre-requisite and even then, I’d venture that having a relatively dry place with facilities is a positive step. Creations like Ossett or Dinnington are the anthesis of minimalist and are arguably too extensive but having an appropriately sized, safe place to wait in the right location seems to be a positive thing.

It would naturally be great if all were colocated with rail stations (as per Hull or Bath) but sadly many stations are peripherally located as even the Victorians didn’t have the money.

Or even Doncaster.

Yes but many were awful. Don’t know about Weston but Darlington was also a combined depot and bus station. Unloved and grotty even in NBC days. Weston is one of those places that suffers from not having a central point for services.

The bus station Scunthorpe had from 1968 up until 2001 was a combined depot and bus station, as was the one before the 1968 one.

 

[radamfi]

That’s the same as rail stations though. I can remember doing a piece of work on a rail line and the approach was to try to attract taxi firms into stations so there was some presence to ward off antisocial behaviour.

I did say that safety was a pre-requisite and even then, I’d venture that having a relatively dry place with facilities is a positive step. Creations like Ossett or Dinnington are the anthesis of minimalist and are arguably too extensive but having an appropriately sized, safe place to wait in the right location seems to be a positive thing.

It would naturally be great if all were colocated with rail stations (as per Hull or Bath) but sadly many stations are peripherally located as even the Victorians didn’t have the money.

Trains have to stop at rail stations though, so there is no choice other than to try and make the station as pleasant as possible. Buses have the flexibility to stop on the road.

It is all about *perceived* safety. Bus stations are statistically safe but to many people they don't *feel* safe. TfL are aware of this and no longer build enclosed bus stations, and have even replaced the enclosed bus station at West Croydon with one that is more open to the elements.

If the station is out of town, that doesn't imply you need a town centre bus station. Railways in most countries were built in the 19th century so it is far from unusual for the station to be away from the historical centre. Yet most places outside Britain don't build separate town centre bus stations in those circumstances, and in the few places where they exist it would be unusual for it to be fully enclosed.

Also, your bus station will not necessarily capture all your town centre passengers. Even in Britain you may find that the bus picks up more passengers at the stop after the bus station, even on an out of town bus.

It's odd that bus stations are such a big deal in a country that doesn't care about buses in other respects.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Trains have to stop at rail stations though, so there is no choice other than to try and make the station as pleasant as possible. Buses have the flexibility to stop on the road.

Buses have to stop as well. The parallel is there - an average bus stop on the road is the equivalent of a rail "halt". In larger places, the station size and facilities will reflect the demand and footfall etc. To illustrate.... you wouldn't expect Weston super Mare to have a train station comprising a couple of platforms, some iffy shelters and a self service ticket machine. However, that sort of facility would be fine for Worle station (located on the edge of the town).

No, you'd expect Weston station to have toilets, waiting rooms, refreshments. However, Weston's bus passengers have to manage to navigate around a number of roadside stops in multiple locations. Not so bad for local services running a decent headway but less good for those running only half hourly, hourly or worse. I do agree that bus stations won't necessarily have ALL town centre passengers. However, we're talking about a focus point for the majority of passengers in the town centre.

Perhaps one of the significant differences on the continent is that as we've ripped up a lot of our railways and haven't invested in them (or in light rail), buses have to pick up much more of the inter-urban workload so bus passenger waiting/dwell is for longer.

Not quite sure what you mean by an enclosed bus station? I assume you're on about a single concourse rather than a fully undercover arrangement.

Fair comment on the investment in physical infrastructure like bus stations rather than other areas. I've mentioned the Dinnington and Ossett examples but could easily point to places like Wigan's new bus station that is both impressive and ridiculously large. PTEs are most culpable but even places like Newark seem a bit OTT - could be a thread in itself!

It is just my personal opinion but I think you have to be pragmatic about bus stations. Some places don't really need much more than a couple of bus shelters and some nearby public toilets - the minimalist option. However, some places would benefit from something that is central and appropriately sized and specced. Where possible, try to put them near the rail station - Hull is a great example of what to do (whilst Cardiff is the opposite).

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is just my personal opinion but I think you have to be pragmatic about bus stations. Some places don't really need much more than a couple of bus shelters and some nearby public toilets - the minimalist option. However, some places would benefit from something that is central and appropriately sized and specced. Where possible, try to put them near the rail station - Hull is a great example of what to do (whilst Cardiff is the opposite).

It often depends on the shape of the centre. MK sort of does have one, the setup outside the station, but it isn't really operated like one because the set of destinations are strung out over about a mile along Midsummer Boulevard and almost all services run "cross city" with no central terminus. But if you have a less "long and thin" town centre it can be more useful.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It often depends on the shape of the centre.

Absolutely - that's what I mean by pragmatism.

Some places need a decent bus station, some want a more minimalist facility, and some don't really need one at all.

 

[radamfi]

Perhaps one of the significant differences on the continent is that as we've ripped up a lot of our railways and haven't invested in them (or in light rail), buses have to pick up much more of the inter-urban workload so bus passenger waiting/dwell is for longer.

Other countries have had their own Beechings or may not have developed such a comprehensive network in the first place. The density of the rail network varies by country. For example, Belgium is a smaller country than the Netherlands but Belgium has more rail stations. The Netherlands has a surprisingly sparse network given its high population density with notable gaps such as Utrecht to Breda. However, there are regular fast bus services where needed, typically run by coach seated Mercedes Integros or similar, and they all serve the rail station and may also stop additionally in the town centre of the rail served town at a normal bus stop.

Not quite sure what you mean by an enclosed bus station? I assume you're on about a single concourse rather than a fully undercover arrangement.

By "enclosed" I mean where you have glass, brick or other material on all sides of the structure with gaps provided for entering the bus station and getting on or off buses. Modern types tend to be fully undercover with automatic or push button doors but I'm also including older bus stations like Stockport where there are holes at either end of the concourse.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

By "enclosed" I mean where you have glass, brick or other material on all sides of the structure with gaps provided for entering the bus station and getting on or off buses. Modern types tend to be fully undercover with automatic or push button doors but I'm also including older bus stations like Stockport where there are holes at either end of the concourse.

I thought that was what you meant rather than enclosing the manoeuvring area as well.

 

[ashkeba]

No, you'd expect Weston station to have toilets, waiting rooms, refreshments. However, Weston's bus passengers have to manage to navigate around a number of roadside stops in multiple locations. Not so bad for local services running a decent headway but less good for those running only half hourly, hourly or worse. I do agree that bus stations won't necessarily have ALL town centre passengers. However, we're talking about a focus point for the majority of passengers in the town centre.

We mustn't forget the joy of holidaymakers arriving at Weston-super-Mare Coach Terminal (its name according to National Express), which is one shelter next to some of the ugliest public toilets still standing in the throat of a tatty surface car park off a dual-carriageway in the shadow of a huge road bridge: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.345...8YWYdBuX7WWWQ2WYOuqQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en

Then to get to their hotel, they discover it's served by no local bus routes. Looking on the bright side, if they decide against walking alongside the right-hand dual-carriageway towards the seafront (where some local buses stop, but not the seafront ones) and instead walk alongside the left-hand dual-carriageway towards the seafront, they can gaze upon the fine Victorian GWR station, possibly notice it's where the seafront buses stop, and realise how they should travel!

 

[Cambus731]

I'm a bit surprised no-one has mentioned Colchester. I don't know if the current arrangement is intended to be permanent. But it is a bit of a stretch of the imagination calling it a 'bus station'

 

[delt1c]

All you need is to vote in a government that is willing to do that and all your prayers will be answered!

Didnt know it was that simple.

 

[carlberry]

We mustn't forget the joy of holidaymakers arriving at Weston-super-Mare Coach Terminal (its name according to National Express), which is one shelter next to some of the ugliest public toilets still standing in the throat of a tatty surface car park off a dual-carriageway in the shadow of a huge road bridge: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.345...8YWYdBuX7WWWQ2WYOuqQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en

Then to get to their hotel, they discover it's served by no local bus routes. Looking on the bright side, if they decide against walking alongside the right-hand dual-carriageway towards the seafront (where some local buses stop, but not the seafront ones) and instead walk alongside the left-hand dual-carriageway towards the seafront, they can gaze upon the fine Victorian GWR station, possibly notice it's where the seafront buses stop, and realise how they should travel!

However most of the accommodation in Weston is on the Locking road which is nearer to the coach station. I suspect holidaymakers arriving at Weston super Mare are going to find the location of the coach station the least of their worries!

 

[ashkeba]

However most of the accommodation in Weston is on the Locking road which is nearer to the coach station. I suspect holidaymakers arriving at Weston super Mare are going to find the location of the coach station the least of their worries!

Not just the location, but the ugly horribleness of a car park bus shelter marketed as a "Coach Terminal".

What big hotels are on Locking Road? I thought the big hotels in Weston-super-Mare were mostly on the sea front since the regeneration. Not just the classics like the Grand Atlantic (near the long-gone bus station) and Royal, but even the Premier Inn, Marston's and Wetherspoons hotels are there.

 

[carlberry]

Not just the location, but the ugly horribleness of a car park bus shelter marketed as a "Coach Terminal".

What big hotels are on Locking Road? I thought the big hotels in Weston-super-Mare were mostly on the sea front. Not just the classics like the Grand Atlantic (near the long-gone bus station) and Royal, but even the Premier Inn, Marston's and Wetherspoons hotels are there.

Locking Road used to be where all the B&Bs were (I'd have to accept that things are likely to have changed as this was back in the days that Locking Road was a coach park that could often be full!).

 

[Dai Corner]

Wouldn't it be great if bus and rail passengers could use the same toilets, waiting rooms, ticket office and refreshment facilities?

Locking Road used to be where all the B&Bs were (I'd have to accept that things are likely to have changed as this was back in the days that Locking Road was a coach park that could often be full!).

I suspect that most of the holidaymakers arriving in Weston by coach are on organised tours and will be dropped off at their hotels. The National Express passengers will probably mostly be Westonians.

 

[radamfi]

An extract from "Transport for Suburbia: Beyond the Automobile Age" by Paul Mees (p170):

"The focus on through routes and lines can be extended to city centres which are often dominated by large on- or off-street terminals for bus lines. As well as wasting valuable land, these terminals prevent bus routes serving people who wish to travel from one part of the city centre to another. It is often better to link surface routes across the city centre, combining the functions of radial access and central distribution on a single line. This again allows increased efficiency and higher occupancy levels, avoiding the expense of dedicated 'city shuttle' type services. Good examples are provided by trams in Zurich, Toronto and Melbourne, and buses in Curitiba and Schaffhausen."