trivia oldest and newest together

[westernpunk]

seeing 1015 and an elizabeth line unit beside got me wondering in everyday work , excluding heritage lines museums etc what 2 classes would have had the greatest age difference could it have been some ancient lswr tank next to a north british or warship perhaps

 

[renegademaster]

Currently Watford DC must be one. 46 year age gap between the 1972 stock and 710s.

 

[Taunton]

At Stockport a few weeks ago there were two Class 37, from 1963, on a snowplough, alongside a brand new TfW Class 197 from 2023 on Cardiff to Manchester - that's 60 years.

I suspect the greatest gap overall was at Havant in 1963, when the last A1X tank, built 1872, would be alongside the last of the 4-CEP units, brand new, on Victoria-Portsmouth services - that's 90 years.

 

[Magdalia]

I suspect the greatest gap overall was at Havant in 1963, when the last A1X tank, built 1872, would be alongside the last of the 4-CEP units, brand new, on Victoria-Portsmouth services - that's 90 years.

CEPs were new for the Kent Coast electrification. Did they work to Havant in 1963 or only later? The Southern Electric Group website says from 1964 which was after Hayling Island closed.

I can offer GER J15 BR number 65361 built in 1889 which lasted to the end of steam in East Anglia in September 1962. 65361 would have been at Stratford alongside Brush Type 2s and EE Type 3s built in 1961.

 

[Spartacus]

It's a shame there was so much antipathy towards the newer locos towards the end of the steam era otherwise we'd no doubt have more photos of the unusually old locos next to the new ones. If they're together at all, one, or sometimes the other, is merely just visible in the background.

 

[Harvester]

Y9 0-4-0ST (BR 68095) entered service in 1887, and remained in stock until Dec 1962. After withdrawal from St Margarets (64A) it was stored at the shed alongside the ECML for months, with brand new 47s no doubt ambling by. I have a photograph of it there, which I took in 1963 when visiting 64A as a youngster.

 

[norbitonflyer]

I can offer GER J15 BR number 65361 built in 1889 which lasted to the end of steam in East Anglia in September 1962. 65361 would have been at Stratford alongside Brush Type 2s and EE Type 3s built in 1961.

That's a 72 year gap. The first class 08s were introduced in 1953, 71 years ago, but what is the oldest class 08 still in regular service?

Hugh Longworth records that the oldest locomtive taken intio BR stock in 1948 was an ex-North Londion Railway Crane tank number 58865, built in 1858, so almost 90 years old at the time. The newest was probably LMS diesel No 10000, barely two weeks old at nationalisation. Whether 10000 and 58865 ever met I don't know.

58865 was withdrawn in 1952, by which time it was 93 years old, and scrapped at Derby, where it may well have encountered brand new Class 11 shunters being built - and possibly the "Fell" locomotive on one of its frequent visits to the works for attention. .

Longworth lists two other locos that were over 90 years old at withdrawal - ex LBSCR Terriers 32670 and 32636, both withdrawn in November 1963. As mentioned elsewhere, they worked the Hayling Island but their base shed was Brighton and they would have gone there from time to time for heavy maintenance. Where they could have met the early CEP/BEP units. (Although built for the Kent Coast electrification, the first two trains (both CEP/BEP/CEP) were first tried out on the Brighton line in the late 1950s.
More intriguingly, the Class 73/0 electro-diesels were built at Eastleigh in 1961 - I don't know where they were tested, but a run to Portsmouth would surely not have been out of the question.

 

[30907]

CEPs were new for the Kent Coast electrification. Did they work to Havant in 1963 or only later? The Southern Electric Group website says from 1964 which was after Hayling Island closed.

In which case, a Terrier and a Hampshire diesel (1957) at Fratton would give up to 85 years. You might just beat that with an Oxted 3-D (1962) at Brighton.

 

[Dr Hoo]

The Middleton Incline on the Cromford & High Peak was worked by an 1829 (stationary) steam engine. Various trials were done with modern diesel shunters on the Middleton Top-Parsley Hay section, so ‘traction’ separated by around 130 years occurred at one location.
(Unless someone can tell us that the steam engine was renewed at some point.)

 

[Ashley Hill]

The first class 08s were introduced in 1953, 71 years ago, but what is the oldest class 08 still in regular service?

The first class 08 D3000 is preserved but not sure if its operational or not.

 

[Bevan Price]

In 1980, Liverpool & Manchester loco "Lion" (built 1838 ?) was let out of museum and made some runs on the main line, including Southport to Bold Sidings (St. Helens), plus Eccles to Manchester Liverpool Road. It also ran in the Rainhill "parades", passing, amongst others , a HST.

Also on the main lines, the greatest age disparity on a double header was probably LNWR 790 "Hardwicke" piloting 92220 "Evening Star".

 

[norbitonflyer]

In 1980, Liverpool & Manchester loco "Lion" (built 1838 ?) was let out of museum and made some runs on the main line, including Southport to Bold Sidings (St. Helens), plus Eccles to Manchester Liverpool Road. It also ran in the Rainhill "parades", passing, amongst others , a HST.

Also on the main lines, the greatest age disparity on a double header was probably LNWR 790 "Hardwicke" piloting 92220 "Evening Star".

The first class 08 D3000 is preserved but not sure if its operational or not.

hardly "everyday work" though, as requested by the OP.

 

[DerekC]

The Ffestiniog Railway's Prince of 1863 alongside the new James Spooner of 2023 would be hard to beat. Not sure whether Prince is currently in service, though.

 

[mike57]

Another one which would be possible, and could be around 80 years is the ex 1938 LU stock used on the I-o-W when being moved to/from the island.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Another one which would be possible, and could be around 80 years is the ex 1938 LU stock used on the I-o-W when being moved to/from the island.

It was "only" 60 years old when moved to the island. I don't think they ever ran on the mainland again, and certainly not after withdrawal.

In which case, a Terrier and a Hampshire diesel (1957) at Fratton would give up to 85 years. You might just beat that with an Oxted 3-D (1962) at Brighton.

The Hayling Island service ran from a bay at Havant, so the Terriers would not have been regular visitors at Fratton in service. Where were they shedded?

As for the original question, the Western took over the Wenfordbridge line in 1963, before which time Class 22s and dmus would have been a rare sight there. And they wasted no time in replacing the well tanks with panniers

 

[Gloster]

The Hayling Island service ran from a bay at Havant, so the Terriers would not have been regular visitors at Fratton in service. Where were they shedded?

It looks as though they were allocated to Brighton for the last few years, although they were probably stabled at Fratton.

 

[gg1]

That's a 72 year gap. The first class 08s were introduced in 1953, 71 years ago, but what is the oldest class 08 still in regular service?

It may not the oldest gronk on the national network but 08617 was built in 1959 and shares it's Oxley home with brand new 730s, a 65 year age difference.

 

[gazthomas]

I'm sure it will be 60 years by the time Transport for Wales get the last 197 in service

 

[zwk500]

Would you have had some ancient shed pet piloting a major station while brand new stock was being introduced in the late 50s/early 60s? Thinking that Cambridge and King's Cross were renowned for having quite venerable station pilots.

 

[30907]

It looks as though they were allocated to Brighton for the last few years, although they were probably stabled at Fratton.

Quite a few moved Fratton-Eastleigh late in 1959 (I would guess that Fratton may have lost its steam allocation then) but records (not to mention practicality!) show them based at Fratton to the end.

(BRDatabase.info is slightly awkward to follow on my device....)

Would you have had some ancient shed pet piloting a major station while brand new stock was being introduced in the late 50s/early 60s? Thinking that Cambridge and King's Cross were renowned for having quite venerable station pilots.

The J69 at Liverpool St wouldn't have been much over 60 when the first diesels arrived, and the Newcastle J72 68723 65 on withdrawal.

I can confirm the Stratford J15 mentioned by Magdalia - it could have worked to North Woolwich opposite a Lea Valley DMU.

Back on the SR, while the Beattie well-tanks might not have met a D6300 at Wadebridge in 1962, Standard 3MT tanks worked as far as Axminster where the Adams 0415s were a good 70 years older.

However, I don't think anything comes near the Terriers with any certainty!

 

[D7666]

CEPs were new for the Kent Coast electrification. Did they work to Havant in 1963 or only later? The Southern Electric Group website says from 1964 which was after Hayling Island closed.

Ceps predated Kent coast.

Protoype Cep and Bep were simply BR SR Mk1 express EMU versions of SR Cor and Buf, and were devised as standard units for all future BR SR electrifications. That they only ended up as a squadron fleet on Kent coast and no more built is technical drift (away from two end motor coaches to single central motor) and operational drift (away from SR traditional small vans at each end to single middle larger van) => Cig/Big.

It is true the squadron fleet was built for and /mostly/ intended for Kent coast, but they were never limited to Kent coast, neither is it true they were all new for Kent coast.

The first and last units were for, and entered traffic on, CD and SWD respectively.

7001/2 7101-4 entered service on the CD in 1956 which was way before any Kent coast third rail was laid never mind energised.

Some of the last built Cep batches were ordered for SWD - and actually delivered there - they worked Alton services very briefly when new - but quickly sent east.

Cep/Bep formations were a long term part of Victoria Mid Sussex Littlehampton / Portsmouth services taking the traditional LBSCR legacy route; I am not getting into a debate on who says what but refer to John Atkinson's works

https://www.bloodandcustard.com/BR-4BEP-4CEP.html

QUOTE
A further batch of units 7205 - 7211 were built in 1963, entering service on the SED and displacing a number of earlier ‘phase 1’ units to the Central Division for the Mid‑Sussex line.
UNQUOTE

Considering that Cep construction lasted until 1963 and 1963 saw P1 units to the CD, and Brighton retained a Cep/Bep allocation well into 1980s, then 1980s concentrated Ceps on Ramsgate with the refurbishment program, but, 7 units, the 1980s refurbished Beps, were SWD, never SED, it is then true to say as a squadron fleet they were never all Kent coast units.

Then 1990s they moved around further no need for details.

 

[westernpunk]

Quite a few moved Fratton-Eastleigh late in 1959 (I would guess that Fratton may have lost its steam allocation then) but records (not to mention practicality!) show them based at Fratton to the end.

(BRDatabase.info is slightly awkward to follow on my device....)


The J69 at Liverpool St wouldn't have been much over 60 when the first diesels arrived, and the Newcastle J72 68723 65 on withdrawal.

I can confirm the Stratford J15 mentioned by Magdalia - it could have worked to North Woolwich opposite a Lea Valley DMU.

Back on the SR, while the Beattie well-tanks might not have met a D6300 at Wadebridge in 1962, Standard 3MT tanks worked as far as Axminster where the Adams 0415s were a good 70 years older.

However, I don't think anything comes near the Terriers with any

Quite a few moved Fratton-Eastleigh late in 1959 (I would guess that Fratton may have lost its steam allocation then) but records (not to mention practicality!) show them based at Fratton to the end.

(BRDatabase.info is slightly awkward to follow on my device....)


The J69 at Liverpool St wouldn't have been much over 60 when the first diesels arrived, and the Newcastle J72 68723 65 on withdrawal.

I can confirm the Stratford J15 mentioned by Magdalia - it could have worked to North Woolwich opposite a Lea Valley DMU.

Back on the SR, while the Beattie well-tanks might not have met a D6300 at Wadebridge in 1962, Standard 3MT tanks worked as far as Axminster where the Adams 0415s were a good 70 years older.

However, I don't think anything comes near the Terriers with any certainty!

View attachment 156592

Quite a few moved Fratton-Eastleigh late in 1959 (I would guess that Fratton may have lost its steam allocation then) but records (not to mention practicality!) show them based at Fratton to the end.

(BRDatabase.info is slightly awkward to follow on my device....)


The J69 at Liverpool St wouldn't have been much over 60 when the first diesels arrived, and the Newcastle J72 68723 65 on withdrawal.

I can confirm the Stratford J15 mentioned by Magdalia - it could have worked to North Woolwich opposite a Lea Valley DMU.

Back on the SR, while the Beattie well-tanks might not have met a D6300 at Wadebridge in 1962, Standard 3MT tanks worked as far as Axminster where the Adams 0415s were a good 70 years older.

However, I don't think anything comes near the Terriers with any certainty!

20 aug 1962

 

[norbitonflyer]

D63xx at Wadebridge on 20 aug 1962

That's more than four months before the last two well tanks were withdrawn. They must, surely, have met!

 

[Magdalia]

Thinking that Cambridge and King's Cross were renowned for having quite venerable station pilots.

Cambridge's venerable celebrity was E4 62785, which was new in 1895 and withdrawn at the end of 1959. To misquote the Beatles, they didn't need it when it was 64.

 

[D7666]

Currently Watford DC must be one. 46 year age gap between the 1972 stock and 710s.

Well beaten by 72TS and 730s that are side by side south of Harrow. As 730s late 2023 that is 51 years. Not a claim for the OP title though.

 

[30907]

View attachment 156592

20 aug 1962

Excellent spot! At that stage the 0298s were about 85 years younger than the diesels, so that puts them on a par with the Fratton Terriers

QUOTE
A further batch of units 7205 - 7211 were built in 1963, entering service on the SED and displacing a number of earlier ‘phase 1’ units to the Central Division for the Mid‑Sussex line.
UNQUOTE

Thanks for the detailed history of the CEPs. You are obviously right that a handful of them never worked on the Kent Coast.
I think @Magdalia was making a specific point about the date when Mid-Sussex services went over to CEPs which was (from the source you quote) Jan 1964. And that, in turn, was querying an age-gap of 90 years.

Anyway, whether a CEP at Brighton or a 2-H at Fratton in 1957, or a D63xx at Wadebridge in 1962, I think we can safely go with 85 years.

 

[D7666]

Can items count here that are nominally new but really are not all new because older components were recovered and used in the " new" build ?

Specifically thinking of LU battery locos that all bar one batch had as bui!t ancient GE motors 2nd hand from passenger units and all bar one different batch had likewise 2nd hand bogies. Some (maybe all) these old bogies and motors are of the order of 100 years or more old, even on the remaining locos that are of the later batches.

OK that is a tenuous link with the OP question - but there are - and will continue to be for the foreseeable future - several locations where LU battery locos containing these century old items be seen alongside all new main line trains.

 

[Russel]

Currently Watford DC must be one. 46 year age gap between the 1972 stock and 710s.

You're probably right, for stock in daily service, this has to be a contender.

 

[Magdalia]

Here is a picture of J69 BR number 68542, which was new in 1892, next to a DMU at Stratford in December 1960.

J69 BR 68542 at Stratford 16-12-1960

Photograph by T. Martin. A digitally restored image from an original negative in my collection.

www.flickr.com

J69 BR 68542 at Stratford 16-12-1960

According to BR Database 68542 lasted to the end of Great Eastern steam in September 1962.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Here is a picture of J69 BR number 68542, which was new in 1892, next to a DMU at Stratford in December 1960.

J69 BR 68542 at Stratford 16-12-1960

Photograph by T. Martin. A digitally restored image from an original negative in my collection.

www.flickr.com

According to BR Database 68542 lasted to the end of Great Eastern steam in September 1962.

That's the first photographic evidence we've had of a 60+.

I've been scouring the terrier and well tank photos on the web to see if they ever hauled Mk 1 stock. Biggest age gap on the same train?
I did find this - that looks like Mark 1 stock on the right. (Could even be a DEMU?)

https://c7.alamy.com/comp/P672G5/a-stroudley-terrier-on-the-hayling-island-branch-of-the-former-lbscr-on-24th-may-1961-at-the-head-of-the-257-to-havant-P672G5.jpg

Not sure about this one

Don't think this counts c1960 at the long-gone Wadebridge goods depot, even if the younger vehicle (registered in 1960) is in BR blue-and-grey!