Trivia: Place names where ALL the vowels are "wrong"

[Western Sunset]

According to Wikipedia, which of course may be wrong, Salop County Council was its name from 1888.

And even more appropriately, the code the GWR used for Shrewsbury shed.

 

[Gloster]

Frome = Froom

Well, one of those vowels is correct, but some of the old boys called it Frum or Frumm.

And what about Lunnun, our capital city?

 

[Calthrop]

Friockheim - near Arbroath in Angus - is pronounced 'Freakum'.

I always feel that the above-bolded ought to be in Germany... another, and particularly fiendish, Scottish place-name is Kilncadzow in South Lanark (near Lanark town) -- pronounced, we are informed, something like "Kill-cay-geh". This name has had some discussion on the Forums in the past couple of years: including folks' remarking more than once, that a settlement with a name like that ought to be in Poland rather than Scotland.

 

[306024]

Help please with Glyndyfrdwy, on the Llangollen Railway.

 

[Calthrop]

Then there's the host of Welsh places with mangled English names.
One I like is Ponciau near Ruabon, English Ponkey.
Pontsticill (summit of the Brecon & Merthyr) is one that English speakers never get right.
Welsh vowels follow different rules to English.

(My bolding) -- one might almost say, Welsh vowels (and consonants) have rules; whereas English... By my understanding, Welsh spelling-vis-a-vis pronunciation is reliably phonetic: learn the rules (which strike 100%-English, no-Welsh-language-background me, as not all that daunting) and you'll know how to pronounce words / names. Whereas in England -- and it rather seems, also Scotland -- pretty well "anything goes".

Help please with Glyndyfrdwy, on the Llangollen Railway.

As above: I'm not Welsh and don't claim learned scholarship; but I'd reckon, "Glun-duvr-doo-uh (or perhaps '-ee')" -- the "u" 's in the first two syllables, as in "glum".

 

[zwk500]

(My bolding) -- one might almost say, Welsh vowels (and consonants) have rules; whereas English... By my understanding, Welsh spelling-vis-a-vis pronunciation is reliably phonetic: learn the rules (which strike 100%-English, no-Welsh-language-background me, as not all that daunting) and you'll know how to pronounce words / names. Whereas in England -- and it rather seems, also Scotland -- pretty well "anything goes".

Genuine question - is Welsh supposed to use a different alphabet (or variant glyphs)?

English place names (and indeed people's names) could often have multiple spellings even in official documents until about the 17th/18th centuries, each reflecting a slightly different phonetic pronunciation (I suspect based upon the interpretation of whichever clerk asked whichever local at the time). So the spelling that became standard may reflect a dead accent, or the local lord's pronunciation that was very much not followed by the locals. There's a village in Sussex called Folkington, pronounced Fo'in'ton.

 

[Calthrop]

Genuine question - is Welsh supposed to use a different alphabet (or variant glyphs)?

By my understanding (some participants on these forums actually know Welsh, and might correct me on various things): Welsh uses the same Roman-alphabet letters as English (no "weird" ones, or accent-symbols on letters), but they often play different pronuciational roles. And Welsh does not use our K, Q, V, X, or Z.

English place names (and indeed people's names) could often have multiple spellings even in official documents until about the 17th/18th centuries, each reflecting a slightly different phonetic pronunciation (I suspect based upon the interpretation of whichever clerk asked whichever local at the time). So the spelling that became standard may reflect a dead accent, or the local lord's pronunciation that was very much not followed by the locals. There's a village in Sussex called Folkington, pronounced Fo'in'ton.

Welsh does seem less subject to these oddities; has one wondering whether in relatively recent times (past couple of centuries, say) it has been codified / systematised / reorganised, in a way in which English hasn't -- perhaps in distant times, Welsh spelling / pronunciation was more anarchic?

 

[gingertom]

try getting your tongue around Milngavie, Glasgow suburban. It's pronounced Mull Guy, as in the isle of, and Ritchie, Madonna's ex.

 

[Western Sunset]

try getting your tongue around Milngavie, Glasgow suburban. It's pronounced Mull Guy, as in the isle of, and Ritchie, Madonna's ex.

Sounds like a good quiz question:

Which affluent Glasgow suburb's name is derived from a Scottish island and the ex-husband of Madonna?

 

[Calthrop]

Sounds like a good quiz question:

Which affluent Glasgow suburb's name is derived from a Scottish island and the ex-husband of Madonna?

Or: suggests a chap who prepares spiced / sweetened / heated ale or wine?

 

[Deepgreen]

Alfreton. Three syllables; the first one is "oll" (the vowel sound from "doll"); the second one is "frit" (short 'i'), and the third one is "un" - rhymes with "gun". So Alfreton should be spelt "Olfritun". Any other contenders for a similar vowel shift?

Starting on very shaky ground - '...ton' is pronounced 'tun' in the word 'ton' itself!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Or: suggests a chap who prepares spiced / sweetened / heated ale or wine?

Or a Scottish philosopher.

 

[D6130]

I once read somewhere that Cholmondeley Castle in Cheshire - and the name of the aristocratic family originating there - is actually pronounced 'Chumley'.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I once read somewhere that Cholmondeley Castle in Cheshire - and the name of the aristocratic family originating there - is actually pronounced 'Chumley'.

There's also the surname "Featherstonehaugh" which is apparently pronounced "Fanshaw". There's even a theatre troupe going by the name of "Cholmondeleys & Featherstonehaughs".

However I've never heard of Featherstone (between Wakefield and Pontefract, and nicknamed "Feverley Hills") being called "Fan".

 

[zwk500]

There's also the surname "Featherstonehaugh" which is apparently pronounced "Fanshaw". There's even a theatre troupe going by the name of "Cholmondeleys & Featherstonehaughs".

There's a great joke about that in a children's series I used to read, I believe it's the one about Nelson (Dead Famous: Nelson and His Victory if anybody has a copy lying around), where there is a 4-panel comic in which Lord Featherstonehaugh introduces himself with 'pronounced Fanshaw' in the speech bubble, and then introduces Nelson to his daughter/acquaintance, to which Nelson responds 'Phweathstonehaugh 'pronounced "Phwoar"'

 

[Dr_Paul]

Southwark station (Jubilee Line)

pronounced Suthook (with a hard 'th' as in "the", rather than a soft 'th' as in "cloth")

'Suvvuk' is a common pronunciation (along with 'Rov'rive' just down the road, but it's just the consonants with that one).

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I once read somewhere that Cholmondeley Castle in Cheshire - and the name of the aristocratic family originating there - is actually pronounced 'Chumley'.

Many apparently English names are derived from Norman French, with variable pronunciation.
I think Cholmondeley is one of those, so is Grosvenor (great hunter), still lording it over Chester and much of London.

I'd say Welsh is a lot more phonetic than English (often the reason for changed spelling: pronunciation is usually much the same as in ambulance/ambiwlans).
But it does have its diphthongs and occasional accents - there is often a circumflex when a vowel is lengthened.
You also have to beware of different plurals, and mutations of initial letters in different contexts (as in all Celtic languages).
And there are distinct language/usage differences between north and south Wales.
I always think Croes Newydd North Fork signal box in Wrexham/Wrecsam is a fine example of dual language usage.

​

 

[PeterC]

By my understanding (some participants on these forums actually know Welsh, and might correct me on various things): Welsh uses the same Roman-alphabet letters as English (no "weird" ones, or accent-symbols on letters), but they often play different pronuciational roles. And Welsh does not use our K, Q, V, X, or Z.



Welsh does seem less subject to these oddities; has one wondering whether in relatively recent times (past couple of centuries, say) it has been codified / systematised / reorganised, in a way in which English hasn't -- perhaps in distant times, Welsh spelling / pronunciation was more anarchic?

Welsh spelling has been standardised although there are dialect differences between North and south.

Like English the Welsh alphabet lost letters with the introduction of printing. Unlike English substitutions such as LL and DD are still regarded as single letters. Hence the old trick question:

How many times does the letter L occur in
Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Hence the old trick question:

How many times does the letter L occur in
Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch?

Once?

Do I win more than my BFH (Bus Fare Home)?

 

[Dr_Paul]

Well, one of those vowels is correct, but some of the old boys called it Frum or Frumm.

And frum is a Yiddish word, meaning devoutly religious; the resulting noun frummer is a slightly disrespectful term for somebody who's seen as being rather too guided by his religious views.

Welsh does not use our K, Q, V, X, or Z.

I have a feeling that Welsh doesn't have J either, and that the common surname Jones is an anglicisation of Siôn. Is this right?

I know I'm as guilty as the next bloke here, but I think we're straying rather from the original question!

 

[snowball]

And frum is a Yiddish word, meaning devoutly religious; the resulting noun frummer is a slightly disrespectful term for somebody who's seen as being rather too guided by his religious views.

I have a feeling that Welsh doesn't have J either, and that the common surname Jones is an anglicisation of Siôn. Is this right?

I know I'm as guilty as the next bloke here, but I think we're straying rather from the original question!

A couple of posts relating to the alphabet in Welsh have been deleted by the mods, perhaps for straying too far, including one which mentioned the status of J.

 

[WAO]

Not sure if this really is infrastructure but a few more names;

Doublebois versus Dobwalls (Cornwall)

Earley versus Erleigh, Erlegh (Reading))

Burscough (Lancs): either Berr's coe or Busker depending on whether scouse or woolyback speaker, only barr's cuff on BBC.

Merrie England

WAO

 

[snowball]

Doublebois versus Dobwalls (Cornwall)

The OS map shows both of these, about a mile apart!

Similarly Eaglescliffe and Egglescliffe (Teesside).

 

[PaulJ]

Meopham on the Chatham main line pronounced as 'Meppum'

 

[Requeststop]

Looe - Lew

 

[randyrippley]

Well, one of those vowels is correct, but some of the old boys called it Frum or Frumm.

No it's not
It's Vroom

 

[PGAT]

Looe - Lew

How else are you meant to say it?

 

[M&NEJ]

Dduallt ?

Edit: perhaps not; as I think only one of the vowels is wrong?

 

[Dr_Paul]

Dduallt ?

Edit: perhaps not; as I think only one of the vowels is wrong?

Only if one uses the English alphabet. I'll leave it to Welsh speaker to explain!

 

[mirodo]

If a French person heard someone say Beaulieu Road they'd probably cry!

To quote the Cure song, (Theydon) Bois Don’t Cry.