Trivia: Significant gaps in mobile coverage (and wifi) on the rail network.

[jon0844]

No train goes so fast that you can't lock on to a signal, but of course there has to be a suitable signal - and that's where parts of the UK railway suffer. It's certainly wise to consider two SIMs if you can, and make sure that you use networks that are part of different network sharing arrangements.

That is Three and EE (MBNL), and Vodafone and O2 (CTIL) which means you might use EE and Vodafone or Three and O2, and so on.

In my experience of doing a lot of network testing, my personal recommendation would be EE and Vodafone. Three is gradually building up a solid 5G network that offers loads of capacity, but mostly using small poles that have a coverage diameter of maybe 300-400 metres - making it pretty useless for the railway. It doesn't often even cover whole towns using a few poles, and I am not sure why Three went down this route.

EE has been continuing to upgrade 4G sites and just this week has started to re-use 3G spectrum for 5G, and in fact from January 2023 will switch off more 3G spectrum to re-use as 5G before turning of the whole 3G network perhaps from 2024. Vodafone will do the same, and so will Three at some point. O2 hasn't said what it intends to do. O2 is also likely to get very congested now it will be incorporating Virgin Mobile customers who were previously using EE, then Vodafone.

3G is very bad because it has something called cell breathing, which adjusts the power according to demand - so under heavy load, coverage shrinks. It's something that doesn't apply to either 4G or 5G, and 5G now has lots of low-frequency spectrum that's ideal for rural areas.. with it beginning to appear on EE and Three.

Also, it seems the Government is perhaps moving to allow companies access to railway property to build dedicated sites - albeit using its own equipment and not sharing Network Rail sites (at least not yet, but maybe the Government will reconsider this at some point). One such advertised project is to have 5G on the Brighton main line, which already has solid 4G coverage promoted by Vodafone from Gatwick to Victoria, as well as distributed antenna systems within the airport (EE also has this at Gatwick).

I think within the coming years, we'll see a major improvement of coverage - but some rolling stock will always be a problem with solar reflecting film on the windows that messes up the signal - but if the trains have Wi-Fi and the systems get upgraded for 5G, I can see the Wi-Fi service on trains improving massively too - as well as the latency dropping markedly when networks launch standalone 5G access (perhaps coming next year - it's currently being trialled by all the networks).

 

[GusB]

No train goes so fast that you can't lock on to a signal, but of course there has to be a suitable signal - and that's where parts of the UK railway suffer. It's certainly wise to consider two SIMs if you can, and make sure that you use networks that are part of different network sharing arrangements.

That is Three and EE (MBNL), and Vodafone and O2 (CTIL) which means you might use EE and Vodafone or Three and O2, and so on.

Perhaps I should have clarified; trains move quickly enough as to be out of range of the relevant cell towers. If you wouldn't mind, could you explain "MBNL" and "CTIL", please? I have worked in the mobile industry before, but it wasn't exactly yesterday and these terms are completely unfamiliar to me!

In my experience of doing a lot of network testing, my personal recommendation would be EE and Vodafone. Three is gradually building up a solid 5G network that offers loads of capacity, but mostly using small poles that have a coverage diameter of maybe 300-400 metres - making it pretty useless for the railway. It doesn't often even cover whole towns using a few poles, and I am not sure why Three went down this route.

EE has been continuing to upgrade 4G sites and just this week has started to re-use 3G spectrum for 5G, and in fact from January 2023 will switch off more 3G spectrum to re-use as 5G before turning of the whole 3G network perhaps from 2024. Vodafone will do the same, and so will Three at some point. O2 hasn't said what it intends to do. O2 is also likely to get very congested now it will be incorporating Virgin Mobile customers who were previously using EE, then Vodafone.

I have no idea what the 5G coverage is like in this area. A few weeks ago I bought a new phone, knowing that it was only 4G capable; however, I know that I can receive 4G in most places that I currently visit.

3G is very bad because it has something called cell breathing, which adjusts the power according to demand - so under heavy load, coverage shrinks. It's something that doesn't apply to either 4G or 5G, and 5G now has lots of low-frequency spectrum that's ideal for rural areas.. with it beginning to appear on EE and Three.

Also, it seems the Government is perhaps moving to allow companies access to railway property to build dedicated sites - albeit using its own equipment and not sharing Network Rail sites (at least not yet, but maybe the Government will reconsider this at some point). One such advertised project is to have 5G on the Brighton main line, which already has solid 4G coverage promoted by Vodafone from Gatwick to Victoria, as well as distributed antenna systems within the airport (EE also has this at Gatwick).

I think within the coming years, we'll see a major improvement of coverage - but some rolling stock will always be a problem with solar reflecting film on the windows that messes up the signal - but if the trains have Wi-Fi and the systems get upgraded for 5G, I can see the Wi-Fi service on trains improving massively too - as well as the latency dropping markedly when networks launch standalone 5G access (perhaps coming next year - it's currently being trialled by all the networks).

When I first moved over to Three, I often found that my phone (at the time it was a Sony-Ericsson K800i) was always better when it had a 2G/GPRS connection rather than 3G, which was available at the time, albeit somewhat patchy. I also recall that there were some issues with the Nokia Nx series phones (I was contracted to a large network operator for a while) whereby they wouldn't "let go" the 2G signal when a 3G signal was available.

Anyhow, this is going way off-topic, but I've learned quite a lot from your post - thanks

 

[jon0844]

MBNL and CTIL were/are joint ventures that saw the networks sharing sites, and in some cases other equipment. Generally more for 4G, with both EE and Three now doing their own thing more for 5G, and likewise Vodafone and O2 gradually splitting up and going their own way. Ultimately it was a good way to save money, but now the networks all seem to have different coverage strategies.

The problem with Vodafone and O2 is how the country is divided up, such that Vodafone generally controls the west of the country (and south London) with O2 running the east and north London (in London it's not quite that clear cut but a good guide). With each network having different bands and spectrum, that has resulted in some users of O2 and Vodafone not getting the best possible service. Likewise, 5G has been very slow in the 'other' side, which is why many areas with 5G are now because the networks are going their own way.

I am somewhat simplifying things, and there are lots of other factors - like Three and EE having to not only roll out new sites, but also replace existing Huawei equipment in the future - causing some issues with upgrades that are on pause. EE has instead enhanced 4G in many places where it can't yet upgrade to 5G (because it will ultimately need to replace the equipment first).

 

[stuu]

I'm not completely au-fait with the workings of train (or bus) wi-fi but, as I understand it, it still relies on having some kind of mobile signal.

That is right but I believe on train WiFi can connect to most/all available networks, and generally there aren't many complete not-spots where none of the networks are available.

Cross Country's WiFi is noticeably better than GWR's on routes they share, for some reason

 

[jon0844]

I think most use EE and/or Vodafone. I expect there are multiple accounts in use per train as one single connection would never be sharable with loads of users.

I always thought there would be a huge cost to the train operators until I found that Three offers unlimited data SIMs to businesses for as little as £2+VAT and no doubt the others do similar deals in bulk.

 

[snowball]

Between Bristol and Birmingham on XC - not helped by the Voyagers being faraday cages!

Are Voyagers worse than other trains and if so why? Aren't all trains made of metal?

 

[jon0844]

Isn't it the film on the glass that causes the biggest problems and contributes to the Faraday cage effect?

 

[stuu]

Are Voyagers worse than other trains and if so why? Aren't all trains made of metal?

The windows have a high metal content to reduce solar gain. They are noticeably worse for mobile signal, and GPS is pretty much blocked

 

[plugwash]

I'm not completely au-fait with the workings of train (or bus) wi-fi but, as I understand it, it still relies on having some kind of mobile signal.

Getting the antenna outside the metal box helps, and the on-trains wi-fi may be using a different network from your phone.

 

[JD2168]

Mobile WiFi coverage is quite patchy between Chapeltown & Barnsley.

 

[Class800]

West of England Line West of Salisbury very patchy until near Exeter

 

[mainframe444]

What happened to the project to use some form of leaky feeder trackside to ensure consistent wi-fi?

The idea was that there would be closely spaced beacons trackside, linked into existing trackside cabling, to pass data to the train as it passed.

I spent a very entertaining afternoon some years ago at Old Dalby test track driving 47714 past a trackside beacon. The loco had equipment in the cab to intercept the signal and we were checking that the data was transmitted correctly.

The intention was to do away with dead spots as the wi-fi came from trackside rather than through a cellular signal.

M

 

[jon0844]

There were some attempts many years ago mixing mobile signals and WiMax base stations - but I guess as mobile data got faster and new sites came with 4G rollouts, they dropped the other options and hoped the networks would just provide better coverage. For one thing, you'd only build up all that coverage if you could make money and initially Wi-Fi on trains was a chargeable extra. Now it isn't, who would pay to build all those sites for a free service? The networks have certain targets and obligations, so let them do it.

That is happening slowly, but networks would need to be given access to railway land to do properly. Given the ability to run fibre along the track, providing solid mobile coverage should be easy and provide a revenue stream for the railway.

It just needs the Government to keep making it easier to build infrastructure without local opposition - as well as being mindful of keeping it separate to the safety critical stuff. As the emergency services will use mobile based radios, this should be even easier.

 

[fandroid]

The SWR mainline has very poor mobile signal from EE from just north of Basingstoke to Woking and is patchy north of Woking. Quite shocking really when you consider how built up the northeastern corner of Hampshire is. Promoted by what I've read on this thread I've logged onto SWR WiFi, and was surprised at the new user interface. I'm in the EE blank zone now so it's interesting to test if the WiFi is better than the utterly feeble product it used to be. OK so far!

The SWR mainline has very poor mobile signal from EE from just north of Basingstoke to Woking and is patchy north of Woking. Quite shocking really when you consider how built up the northeastern corner of Hampshire is. Promoted by what I've read on this thread I've logged onto SWR WiFi, and was surprised at the new user interface. I'm in the EE blank zone now so it's interesting to test if the WiFi is better than the utterly feeble product it used to be. OK so far!

prompted, not promoted

 

[jon0844]

There are many AONB where it's very hard for networks to install new sites, or even upgrade existing ones, and the railways go through a lot of these.

The Government is slowly moving towards allowing permission for bigger (taller) sites that will cover much wider areas, but local opposition remains high and even when permission has been given for sites in places like the Cotswolds, residents have threatened the land owners and ultimately the site still doesn't get built.

I know there are now many locations where planning has been granted, yet sites aren't constructed due to other factors. It doesn't help that some landowners also demand extortionate amounts of money to allow access to the site to do upgrades (contracts from the past sometimes only allowing access for maintenance, and there being sufficient loopholes to enable demands for more money). Suffice to say, there are still 2G and 3G only sites in many places that are of little use to people with modern 4G and 5G phones and a demand for high data speeds.

(The backhaul on a old 3G site was 2Mbps - imagine sharing that between multiple users wanting to watch YouTube and TikTok!). Sites later got 1Gbps and now most will need at least 10Gbps. That means getting fibre to these site locations also.

 

[James H]

I have also found SWR wifi much better this year than in the past - including when passing through the New Forest mentioned in one of the early replies in this thread.

 

[jon0844]

I have also found SWR wifi much better this year than in the past - including when passing through the New Forest mentioned in one of the early replies in this thread.

I assume there have been some successful network upgrades then, but I bet there's a lot more to be done.

 

[Skie]

RailEngineer has an extensive write up here that explains how Merseytravel are using trackside base stations and a network wide fibre optic network to avoid relying on mobile networks and deliver a faster and more reliable data connection to the new class 777 trains so CCTV, train diagnostic data and PIS are all real-time. Including in the tunnels!

New MerseyRail 'connected' trains - Rail Engineer

Listen to this article Merseyrail is the commuter rail network serving Liverpool and is one of the most heavily used urban railway networks outside London. It consists of two dedicated DC third-rail electrified lines known as the Northern line and Wirral line, creating a metro-style network of...

www.railengineer.co.uk

The side benefit to it is passengers will also get free Wi-Fi. The article does slightly confuse the trackside transmitters with Wi-Fi base stations, which they aren’t. They just provide the up/downlink to the train, the Wi-Fi access points are still onboard.

 

[D6975]

As mentioned by others , GWR's wifi isn't brilliant, but between Westbury and Salisbury it usually gives up completely.
As for mobile coverage, when I was doing the tractors on the Cumbrian coast, my provider wouldn't connect me for much of the journey because according to them I was calling from the IOM and didn't have roaming enabled!

 

[Wookiee]

The SWR mainline has very poor mobile signal from EE from just north of Basingstoke to Woking and is patchy north of Woking. Quite shocking really when you consider how built up the northeastern corner of Hampshire is. Promoted by what I've read on this thread I've logged onto SWR WiFi, and was surprised at the new user interface. I'm in the EE blank zone now so it's interesting to test if the WiFi is better than the utterly feeble product it used to be. OK so far!


prompted, not promoted

The signal all the way up the SWML and the Portsmouth Direct is shocking, including once you're into the more densely populated areas inside the M25. I could never understand how i could have a solid 4G signal on a boat all the way from Vienna to Bratislava, despite the fact that for most of the journey you couldn't see any semblance of civilisation, and yet north Hampshire and Surrey can barely manage a single bar of anything.

 

[jon0844]

Signals can carry for tens of miles on open water, so it's hardly a surprise. Go to Dover and you'll often join a French network.

Now go inside some buildings or cuttings and watch a signal disappear in seconds (and by that, it isn't that there's no signal but rather the signal quality and signal to noise ratio is too poor).

 

[jopsuk]

There are many AONB where it's very hard for networks to install new sites, or even upgrade existing ones, and the railways go through a lot of these.

Yet the signal along main roads in those areas will usually be good...
Generally signals are good along major roads, as the first public mobile phone networks set up were for carphones, and there's a long legacy there thanks to that.

 

[jon0844]

Yet the signal along main roads in those areas will usually be good...
Generally signals are good along major roads, as the first public mobile phone networks set up were for carphones, and there's a long legacy there thanks to that.

But does anyone really care about that these days? Sure, you have old sites pushing out 2G with virtually no capability for data - but people are needing mobile data.

Old 2G or 3G sites, often connected via a network of microwave links or 2Mbps leased lines, are pretty much useless for modern needs today. There's no ability to upgrade them to 4G or 5G without major work, which is the problem.

In many cases these old sites are life expired and are going to decommissioned - either on purpose or by simply failing.

 

[Thebaz]

East Croydon - London Bridge. Very poor 4G on Vodafone, I almost never get a signal. Before COVID it was also impossible to get on to the free wi-fi but that's a bit better with slightly fewer passengers.

 

[TheSeeker]

Generally signals are good along major roads, as the first public mobile phone networks set up were for carphones, and there's a long legacy there thanks to that.

There's a good book called "Backroom Boys: The Secret Return of the British Boffin". By Francis Spufford. It includes a chapter on the formation of Racal/Vodafone. As I remember the initial 1G coverage was London, M4 and M1.

 

[tel]

When I get to log on to Greater Anglia's wi fi I'm then told that the Internet is not available but thanks for logging on. This seems to be a common problem on the GEML or seems to with my phone.

 

[Gigabit]

Alton to Waterloo is terrible.

 

[Trainfan2019]

Hope Valley has large gaps from Grindleford to Chinley I think. However, slight coverage briefly appears around Hathersage.

 

[lookapigeon]

But does anyone really care about that these days? Sure, you have old sites pushing out 2G with virtually no capability for data - but people are needing mobile data.

Old 2G or 3G sites, often connected via a network of microwave links or 2Mbps leased lines, are pretty much useless for modern needs today. There's no ability to upgrade them to 4G or 5G without major work, which is the problem.

In many cases these old sites are life expired and are going to decommissioned - either on purpose or by simply failing.

I used to travel a lot to Portsmouth about 10 years ago by train and found the most consistent network along the Portsmouth direct line was Vodafone, especially as you got towards that section in between Petersfield and the tunnel, it was Vodafone only and even then it was 2G and you could just about download some emails if you were very patient.

What I do not understand is how the "nimbys" have so much control, I mean, if this was gas/electric/water would they have such objections?

And are they all not fed up of having to go and stand a hill/bottom of the garden to get any reception if people try to call or text them, let alone use any social media etc.

I have friends living just outside of Dartmoor in a beautiful little village and it is very much like that. They're somewhat used to it and everyone knows the landline or uses IP calling (whatsapp, fb messenger etc).

In their house you have to climb to at least the 1st floor and be close to the window to barely get 1 bar and that is overloaded 3G, or walk to a different part of the village, if you want some 4G.

Is there not fibre along the tracks in the form of that belonging to SSE Telecoms (or whatver they call themselves now?).

The point someone made about mobile coverage on the continent is very true, I was in Amsterdam roaming on the 3UK SIM and the data there was consistently in excess of 100Mbps+ with carrier aggregation in the city centre, middle of the day and crowded with tourists, locals etc.

London struggles massively, I was in Soho the other day when it really busy, barely able to pull in a megabit either way of upload or download speed. Horrifically congested.

 

[mikeg]

Unless things have changed drastically since I last used them, the Little North Western used to be the line of mobile signal only near stations and the Esk Valley Line was the line of signal only at either end (using Vodafone)