Trivia: Stations in England with Welsh names

[busestrains]

Eryl definitely now says Salisbury. Does say Harbwr Portsmouth though.

Are you sure? When did that change? Every time i have been to Cardiff Central and Newport it has always been "Caersallog" he says. Parallel just posted a new video on youtube this morning and it is still "Caersallog" on there. He also still says "Caerfaddon" for Bath Spa too. I was not aware it had changed. If it has changed it must be very recently? In the past couple weeks i presume?

 

[Unixman]

I've seen in rail documents:
Manceinion Heol Rhydychen for Manchester Oxford Road (Rhydychen being the (quite literal) Welsh name for Oxford)
Manceinion Fictoria for Manchester Victoria

- but these were in ATW days on leaflets for engineering work.
The regular timetables/PIS use Manceinion and then the English local name.

There are of course places in Wales that nobody ever uses the Welsh for - Queensferry and Saltney don't appear to have Welsh versions.
Also plenty of Welsh names in Shropshire, particularly around Oswestry (eg Llanyblodwel), and plenty of English names in Powys.

One English name of Welsh (or Brythonic) origin is Eccles - equivalent to Eglwys (church) in modern Welsh.
And all the English river Avons (Welsh/Brythonic afon - river).
Malvern in Worcestershire is from Welsh Moel Bryn (bare hill).

Plenty more. One of the more famous ones is Dover which is probably cognate with Dyfi and comes from the Celtic for "water" which is "dwfr" in modern Welsh.

 

[randyrippley]

Penrith is presumably actually a Welsh name

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Bryn

 

[Irascible]

A few from the top of my head:

Caerwysg Dewi Sant - Exeter St Davids
Caerwysg Sant Thomas - Exeter St Thomas

These are all announced by their Welsh name at TfW stations.

I'd be impressed ( and a little amused ) if they used south-west Brythonic instead of Welsh ( Caer Uisc for Exeter, I think ).

 

[eldomtom2]

Why is there a Welsh version of Birmingham International, but not a Welsh version of Birmingham New Street?

There must be Welsh translations of "new" and "street".

And why isn't there a Welsh name for Birmingham, and yet there is for London, Liverpool and Manchester?

I wonder how many people refer to English cities using their Welsh names, even amongst those who speak Welsh as their first language.

In fairness, English names for Welsh places are similarly inconsistent...

 

[rf_ioliver]

If listening to announcements you need to understand mutations too. TfW is inconsistent (as are native speakers) but if you say i Bwllheli and i Fanceinion then it should be i Firmingham too.

Technically you should not mutate non-Welsh placenames, so i Firmingham is incorrect. Try saying Ym Mirmingham ... it just sounds awful


For placenames, Rhydychen for Oxford and then you have Kent (from Caint), Dover from Dwfr (meaning water) and Avon from Afon (meaning river). I belive the is a derivation for Adur (river in Sussex) from Y Dwr (the water).


Roman commander (pointing at the sea): What's that?
Celtlic Cheiftan: ummm....water (dwfr)
Roman commands: excellent, name we shall call it Dwfr
Celtic Chieftan: .....

 

[The Prisoner]

Penrith is presumably actually a Welsh name

Sort of. There are two schools of thought, both broadly leading back to Welsh origins:

First is "Pen" (head/chief) "rid" or "ryhd" (ford) roughly translates as Head of the Ford. Both Pen and rid/rhyd come from Cumbric, which is a regional Brittonic language sharing much in common with Welsh.

Second is "Pen" (same as above - head/chief) "rhudd" (Welsh word for Crimson) relating to the red sandstone which is abundant locally. Could also relate to literally "Red Hill" after the hill on which Penrith Beacon (rip 86255) sits looking over the town. There is an area of Penrith called Redhills.

So there are Welsh/Cumbric origins and the town was probably once called Penrid, Penryhd or Penrhudd and became anglicised. The second explanation seems more likely as there isn't actually a river of any note running through the town, plus Penrhudd pronounced in Welsh isn't a million miles from Penrith (dd in Welsh = th in English, broadly)

I lived there for over a decade and my folks still do. I used to travel to Cornwall back in the 90s on the Cornish Scot every summer to spend time with a friend - Bodmin Parkway always tried selling her a ticket to Penryn rather than Penrith every time for the reverse journey.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

Technically you should not mutate non-Welsh placenames, so i Firmingham is incorrect. Try saying Ym Mirmingham ... it just sounds awful

And yet "i Fyrmigham" occurs!

 

[rf_ioliver]

And yet "i Fyrmigham" occurs!

And yet the title of the video says "i Birmingham" - I notice they use both with and wtihout mutation in the song.... isn't the rule "when in doubt, soft mutate"
anyway. I have a the reference book on mutations here somewhere: 2 pages on nasal, 1 on aspirate and 6000 on the subtle complexities of soft mutation.

I've caught myself saying ym Mrighton and i Frighton in the past too so not innocent here either

 

[PsychoMouse]

I’ve seen Birmingham written in Welsh as Firmingham and Mermingham a few times. The former being much more common.

 

[rf_ioliver]

I’ve seen Birmingham written in Welsh as Firmingham and Mermingham a few times. The former being much more common.

The former is soft mutated B->F occurs after "i" to and most other prepositions, the latter "m" is nasal mutation and occurs after yn (in) which itself mutates to ym