Trolley buses

[radamfi]

Are there any trolleybus networks being built at the moment? It might be interesting to note that Basel has ordered a complete replacement of its diesel bus fleet (about 100) with VDL battery buses. This is in a country with several trolleybus networks still in operation and Switzerland is of course an extremely wealthy country, so could afford to set up a trolleybus network from scratch if it so wished. It probably doesn't help that they closed the last trolleybus route not that long ago, but that would suggest reopening would be relatively easy.

 

[transmanche]

I suspect the changes to the roof to support the weight of the overhead equipment and the changes to the body to accommodate the high voltage cables wouldn't be trivial.

I said relatively trivial, as the bus wouldn't need a new drivetrain. It's already an electric bus, just with the electricity generated on-board by a diesel engine.

 

[AlbertBeale]

I said relatively trivial, as the bus wouldn't need a new drivetrain. It's already an electric bus, just with the electricity generated on-board by a diesel engine.

Or - strictly - with the battery which runs the electric bus topped up intermittently by a diesel generator. Perhaps, assuming the power supply is used to keep the battery topped up when its connected to the cables, then a route could manage some sections without needing overhead cables in places where installing them might be particularly difficult (technically or aesthetically). If there were few sections like this, maybe the energy reserve needing to be held by the battery could be less than it is now, leading to a lighter battery.

 

[edwin_m]

Maybe that's true in London - but it's definitely possible to integrate street lighting into a support column - so even if you had to replace them they wouldn't take up any additional space on the street.

The wire supports would need to deform in a collision as well - equally you don't want a street light to fall over if something hits it, so (aside from the additional lateral forces) I don't think there is all that much difference, assuming the columns are correctly specified for their intended use.

There's definitely one location I know of (outside London and outside the UK) where the street lighting columns were designed with passive provision for trolley wires to be installed at a later date (which is planned within the next 5 years). Again, the lack of a single modern functioning trolleybus network in the UK makes it difficult to tell what rules would apply in that respect.

You said (my bold):

Most of the lampposts that they could be mounted from are there in any case.

It's obviously possible to combine street lighting with OLE supports, though there are some electrical complications with earthing, but you were suggesting mounting them on existing lighting columns.

Having been involved in safety management for Metrolink, I can say that OLE columns are most definitely not designed to deform in the event of road vehicle collision. If you look closely at the street sections of Metrolink phase 3, you will see various places where such a collision was considered to be the highest risk and the columns are protected by raised kerbs or bollards.

Modern lighting columns are generally designed to deform. The reduced risk to road vehicle occupants by hitting a less solid obstacle is considered to outweigh the risks to people from the column falling. A lighting column is a mass-produced product and is engineered to withstand the loadings it will experience in its intended use plus a factor of safety but no more. Extra metal means extra cost and loss of sales to a competitor with a more efficient design - not to mention extra use of resources and energy in production. So they are most certainly not capable of having anything more than the odd sign or flower basked attached to them - certainly not the sort of forces you see in modern on-street OLE where the rules require that it stays at a safe height even if one support is lost.

And trolleybus overhead has twice the wires under similar tension forces compared to tram overhead, so many of the design parameters for the supports are doubled too. ​

 

[DavidGrain]

Modern tramway systems use pantographs which cannot be used for trolley buses. I remember seeing trolley buses in Wolverhampton dewiring and the trolley arms going up too high for the rewiring pole kept under the bus to reach. I notice that most trolley bus systems in Europe have the trolley arms connected by cable as shown in this diagram (Wikipedia)

 

[carlberry]

Or - strictly - with the battery which runs the electric bus topped up intermittently by a diesel generator. Perhaps, assuming the power supply is used to keep the battery topped up when its connected to the cables, then a route could manage some sections without needing overhead cables in places where installing them might be particularly difficult (technically or aesthetically). If there were few sections like this, maybe the energy reserve needing to be held by the battery could be less than it is now, leading to a lighter battery.

As others have said trolley buses need an arm to connect to the wires, getting this to intentionally de-wire then rewire consistently would be quite a challenge, all of which would have to operate under much more strict h&s rules (having a rewiring pole under the bus that you bring out and wave about above head height near high voltage cables anybody!).
Whilst a modern trolleybuses sounds like a good idea in reality it's never going to be viable compared with the advances in electric buses and nowhere is going to give permission for all the electrical installations without they get the added incentive of having a proper tram (which require less wiring).

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Are there any trolleybus networks being built at the moment? It might be interesting to note that Basel has ordered a complete replacement of its diesel bus fleet (about 100) with VDL battery buses. This is in a country with several trolleybus networks still in operation and Switzerland is of course an extremely wealthy country, so could afford to set up a trolleybus network from scratch if it so wished. It probably doesn't help that they closed the last trolleybus route not that long ago, but that would suggest reopening would be relatively easy.

Whilst a modern trolleybuses sounds like a good idea in reality it's never going to be viable compared with the advances in electric buses and nowhere is going to give permission for all the electrical installations without they get the added incentive of having a proper tram (which require less wiring).

I can only concur with these views. The way forward is electric vehicles using batteries with high speed charging via pantographs.

 

[dm1]

As others have said trolley buses need an arm to connect to the wires, getting this to intentionally de-wire then rewire consistently would be quite a challenge, all of which would have to operate under much more strict h&s rules (having a rewiring pole under the bus that you bring out and wave about above head height near high voltage cables anybody!).
Whilst a modern trolleybuses sounds like a good idea in reality it's never going to be viable compared with the advances in electric buses and nowhere is going to give permission for all the electrical installations without they get the added incentive of having a proper tram (which require less wiring).

Trolley wires are not high voltage (usually 750V DC)

When detaching and attaching to the wires, the trolley poles are nowhere near people so are not dangerous.

It can all be done automatically

 

[carlberry]

Trolley wires are not high voltage (usually 750V DC)

When detaching and attaching to the wires, the trolley poles are nowhere near people so are not dangerous.

It can all be done automatically

750v is enough to get rid of most people! (I realise it's the ampage that kills however the system is usually high ampage as well).

The end result of all the extra equipment for auto rewiring is more cost and delays as it happens. As others have said if Switzerland itself isn't considering expansion of trolleybus networks theres little hope in countries with poorer records of investment in public transport.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Are there any trolleybus networks being built at the moment? It might be interesting to note that Basel has ordered a complete replacement of its diesel bus fleet (about 100) with VDL battery buses. This is in a country with several trolleybus networks still in operation and Switzerland is of course an extremely wealthy country, so could afford to set up a trolleybus network from scratch if it so wished. It probably doesn't help that they closed the last trolleybus route not that long ago, but that would suggest reopening would be relatively easy.

T

The Vevey-Montreux-Villeneuve system on the 'Swiss Riviera' has this month just ordered a complete replacement of its trolleybus fleet, so it must be confident of its long-term future. It is an ideal trolleybus route, along a high-frequency urban corridor with very high patronage. An extension at the Villeneuve end to a new hospital is planned.

 

[transmanche]

As others have said trolley buses need an arm to connect to the wires, getting this to intentionally de-wire then rewire consistently would be quite a challenge

You mean like this trolleybus in Seattle seamlessly switching from battery to trolley wire power dozens of times a day?

 

[radamfi]

The Vevey-Montreux-Villeneuve system on the 'Swiss Riviera' has this month just ordered a complete replacement of its trolleybus fleet, so it must be confident of its long-term future. It is an ideal trolleybus route, along a high-frequency urban corridor with very high patronage. An extension at the Villeneuve end to a new hospital is planned.

For an existing system it is a no-brainer to continue the service. But I would be surprised if we see any new trolleybus systems built from scratch

 

[transmanche]

But I would be surprised if we see any new trolleybus systems built from scratch

Brand-new systems started operating in Marrakesh (Morocco) in 2017, Lecce (Italy) in 2012, Valencia in 2008, Rome in 2005 - and expanded in 2019.

 

[jumble]

If used correctly trolleybuses are far from obselete.

In-Motion-Charging (IMC) is in many cases the simplest and most efficient way to reduce bus emissions in cities - you have the advantage of fully electric operation with no restrictions on charging time and range whilst avoiding the enormous weight of a large battery that is otherwise needed.

The infrastructure costs are slightly higher, but when you have more than about 8 buses per hour running on a section of route that pays for itself (trolleybuses are cheaper and last longer than battery and diesel buses - for the former simply because far fewer of them are needed to run the same service ). They are also significantly quieter than diesel buses and have better acceleration and braking performance (particulates are lower than a diesel bus because almost all braking is regenerative nowadays)

If space permits trolleybuses can be biarticulated (bendy busses with two bends) significantly increasing capacity (this can be done in theory with diesel buses but the result is generally heavy and underpowered)

There is no longer any need for overhead wires that are anything but plain line (and thus relatively unobtrusive) - as the vast majority of complex junctions in the wiring can be avoided using the battery. The trolley poles themselves have been improved significantly as well, meaning dewirements are far less likely, and when switching from the battery to the wires, they can (given a simple triangular guide at the right place) reattach themselves to the wires automatically.

There seems to be an aversion in the UK to new trolleybus networks - the expertise is no longer there, but for the cities in Europe that use (and maintain) them they work in extremely well. These include Zürich, Geneva, Bern, Luzern, Salzburg, Rome, Solingen, Essen, Wuppertal and many others.

London would benefit massively were they to be reintroduced on the most frequently served corridors - the photo above shows the new routemasters could be converted into trolleybuses fairly easily by fitting poles and replacing the diesel motor with a battery.

Exactly
They are a great solution for places where there are steep hills like Lausanne or San Francisco.
A battery system is really going to strain in places like that.

 

[AM9]

Exactly
They are a great solution for places where there are steep hills like Lausanne or San Francisco.
A battery system is really going to strain in places like that.

Not necessarily, assuming what goes up must come down, - with regen!

 

[radamfi]

Brand-new systems started operating in Marrakesh (Morocco) in 2017, Lecce (Italy) in 2012, Valencia in 2008, Rome in 2005 - and expanded in 2019.

But are there any systems being planned now? Battery buses have only become mainstream in the last couple of years so might not have been considered a viable option when recently opened trolleybus systems were being planned. Any system planned now would have to justify why battery buses are not suitable. A lot of battery buses in the Netherlands run outside of urban areas where they need to operate at up to 80 km/h. Are there any trolleybus systems operating in the countryside at speed?

 

[transmanche]

Are there any trolleybus systems operating in the countryside at speed?

Well there's the famous inter-urban route in Crimea.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Not necessarily, assuming what goes up must come down, - with regen!

Regeneration might give you some of the energy back, but a battery's size/weight depends on the maximum power output needed, not only on the total energy stored. Hence regeneration might not solve the problem of lots of steep hills.