TSR's warnings short distances, how does it work?

[heart-of-wessex]

Hello,

Another infrastructure post for yet another Railworks simulator scenario that I want done as realistic as I can.

As part of a pack I'm doing, I want to create the 1550 Streatham Hill - London Bridge via Tulse Hill. However I want a TSR to apply for train's going left at Leigham Jn which will affect this service. However, starting from Streatham Hill Down Sdg, will the TSR warning sign be placed before this, maybe just beyond Balham or something? There would be an 'R' at the end of the platform at Streatham Hill, but for a, say, 10mph turnout restriction, would it be sensible to place the warning after Streatham Hill?

If not, I can only assume the driver would only know the TSR limit by looking in the WON? I am making my own WON's for each scenario, so I could always put it in there, just wondering if that's how it would be done, or if a warning sign would be ok after Streatham Hill or not.


Any help is appreciated


James.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Have a look here: http://www.rgsonline.co.uk/Rule_Boo... and Speed Restrictions/GERT8000-SP Iss 4.pdf

Sect.3 onward has some diagrams that may help you.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Short answer: It depends on the gradient through the affected section.

Longer answer: There's an existing PSR of 20mph for the diverging route at the junction and 30mph for the through route, both from 50mph, so the driver should already be slowing for that.

Railway Group Standard GK/RT0075 (Issue 3) says that, on level track, the warning board for a reduction from 50mph to 10mph should be placed 905 metres away. This would place it just beyond the end of the platform, so no repeater would be needed.

If, however, it was a falling gradient of 1 in 100, the distance increases to 1267 metres, placing the warning board in advance of the platform. In that case, a repeater would be placed at the platform end.

At least that's my interpretation of the document in question. I am not a PWay or S&T type so can't be 100% sure!

 

[Boodiggy]

Short answer: It depends on the gradient through the affected section.

Longer answer: There's an existing PSR of 20mph for the diverging route at the junction and 30mph for the through route, both from 50mph, so the driver should already be slowing for that.

Railway Group Standard GK/RT0075 (Issue 3) says that, on level track, the warning board for a reduction from 50mph to 10mph should be placed 905 metres away. This would place it just beyond the end of the platform, so no repeater would be needed.

If, however, it was a falling gradient of 1 in 100, the distance increases to 1267 metres, placing the warning board in advance of the platform. In that case, a repeater would be placed at the platform end.

At least that's my interpretation of the document in question. I am not a PWay or S&T type so can't be 100% sure!

One thing that you need to be aware of is positions of signals and the associated AWS magnets when placing the temporary AWS magnet for the Warning Board.

 

[Railsigns]

One thing that you need to be aware of is positions of signals and the associated AWS magnets when placing the temporary AWS magnet for the Warning Board.

Or else you end up with something like this:

 

[Boodiggy]

Or else you end up with something like this:

Hahaha, unfortunately I have seen similar far to often!

 

[HarleyDavidson]

At Guildford last year there was a section where you could get 6 magnets (6 x AWS horns) in less than 70s, doing 90 mph. It was a case of a mixture of TSR, PSR & Double & Single Yellow Signals!

 

[causton]

doing 90 mph

...

Double & Single Yellow Signals!

You approach a single yellow at 90mph? hock:

 

[Jamesb1974]

Hello,

Another infrastructure post for yet another Railworks simulator scenario that I want done as realistic as I can.

As part of a pack I'm doing, I want to create the 1550 Streatham Hill - London Bridge via Tulse Hill. However I want a TSR to apply for train's going left at Leigham Jn which will affect this service. However, starting from Streatham Hill Down Sdg, will the TSR warning sign be placed before this, maybe just beyond Balham or something? There would be an 'R' at the end of the platform at Streatham Hill, but for a, say, 10mph turnout restriction, would it be sensible to place the warning after Streatham Hill?

If not, I can only assume the driver would only know the TSR limit by looking in the WON? I am making my own WON's for each scenario, so I could always put it in there, just wondering if that's how it would be done, or if a warning sign would be ok after Streatham Hill or not.


Any help is appreciated


James.

This may be of assistance.

http://www.rgsonline.co.uk/Rule_Book/Rule%20Book%20Modules/SP%20-%20Permissible%20Speeds%20and%20Speed%20Restrictions/GERT8000-SP%20Iss%204.pdf

 

[HarleyDavidson]

...


You approach a single yellow at 90mph? hock:

Nooo! There's a long section between Worplesdon & Guildford, you get two yellows regularly at the top of the bank, the red is on the end of platform 4, well over a mile away!

You can go past the two yellows doing 90 and still pull up very comfortably using just 33% of the brake on 444/450s, so absolutely no danger of getting anywhere near the red, I promise you that & there's a set of OSS as well, set at 79, but I'd always be well under that, usually 60 & you're still a good ½ mile away, down to 50, then 40 just before the platform & 20 in, but by then the signal will have cleared.

However there was a prolonged period where you could come down across Whitmore common at ~90 you'd get the magnet for the EROS indicator, magnet for the advance warning board, another for double yellows, another for the PSR, another for the home signal & another for platform starter as you entered the platform, although that was about 120s after the first!

But the first 6 were very close together, so you'd leave your hand over the button, being around 10s apart!

I promise you I never compromise on safety & I have a very good driving history and have never SPADed at all, bar Cat B or Techs!

 

[455driver]

...
You approach a single yellow at 90mph? hock:

I have seen him drive, no comment!

I always remember one on the up slow at Wimbledon where some clown decided to use the SPAD magnet* at the starting signal (installed pre TPWS) as the magnet for a TSR with the warning board out of view around a corner, guess who slammed the brake in when it went off thinking he had SPADded?
After a 'discussion' with the signaller about it the powers that be decided to move the boards and install a temporary magnet a little way after the SPAD magnet, I am sure it wasnt 'group standard' but it was a lot more sensible!

* a magnet installed next to a signal and only energised when the signal is red, or at least it should be!

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Cheeky sod!

I'll have you know I did a one application stop from 90 into platform 4 the other day & it wasn't in emergency either.

 

[Railsigns]

* a magnet installed next to a signal and only energised when the signal is red, or at least it should be!

A pedantic point perhaps, but for failsafe reasons, a SPAD magnet is de-energised and acts as a permanent magnet when the signal's at red. A suppression coil is energised to prevent an AWS warning when the signal's not at red.

 

[ComUtoR]

But the first 6 were very close together, so you'd leave your hand over the button, being around 10s apart!

As a side note. IF you get two magnets close enough together you can wait for the first AWS to trip then IF its close enough you can leave it sounding whilst you go over the second magnet and you only need to press it once as the second magnet won't sound.

Yes it only has a short time before the brakes kick in but I have had that exact situation with magnets and TSR's

 

[455driver]

A pedantic point perhaps, but for failsafe reasons, a SPAD magnet is de-energised and acts as a permanent magnet when the signal's at red. A suppression coil is energised to prevent an AWS warning when the signal's not at red.

Yes of course it is.
Thanks for the correction though.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Cheeky sod!

I'll have you know I did a one application stop from 90 into platform 4 the other day & it wasn't in emergency either.

Why we're you doing 90 into platform 4 at Waterloo?
Yes I know you mean Guildford!

 

[heart-of-wessex]

Thanks for that link, very useful! I'll put the board at the end of the platform (with an arrow left of course) but in that case where do I put the AWS temp ramp, as there is a starter signal, would it go further back instead?

 

[Pacerpilot]

For a completely realistic simulation , you would place the warning board much closer to the commencement board than the recommended distance, and then prop the pole up with a few bits of ballast so it blows over at the first sign of a breeze.

 

[carriageline]

Or else you end up with something like this:

Except you wouldn't have that for a TSR

 

[455driver]

Thanks for that link, very useful! I'll put the board at the end of the platform (with an arrow left of course) but in that case where do I put the AWS temp ramp, as there is a starter signal, would it go further back instead?

If you are going to put the warning board next to the signal then the magnet for the signal would have the electromagnet disconnected so it always gives the warning horn even if the signal is green.