TSSA accept TOC pay offer

[43066]

Some Bus drivers got 18%

Long running Abellio London bus dispute ends as workers receive major pay boost

Over 1,800 workers secure 18 per cent pay increase

www.unitetheunion.org

That’s interesting, when our resident “pay consultant” perviously stated (regarding London bus drivers):

Apparently they're after 12.3% . Good luck with that.....

 

[142blue]

RMT need to let the membership decide, meetings with online options are not sufficient as not everyone can go or have a say

It's the staff losing money I feel sorry for

 

[Broucek]

You keep saying you’re a “pay consultant” but then making absolute statements like “no one in any industry is enthusiastic about their settlement this year”. That is clearly not a safe statement to make.
The issue with the railway deals is Ts and Cs, not the amount, which has also been pointed out again and again.

The DATA shows that the overwhelming majority of major private sector employers have budgets that are noticeably below inflation. My OPINION is that most people are not particularly enthusiastic about a real terms cut. The phrase "no one" was intended as hyperbole - this is an internet forum, not an academic conference

Some Bus drivers got 18%

You only know about this because it's exceptional. "18% pay rise" is news. "5% pay rise" isn't

Also, people keep muddling what "some people" got with the overall level of awards. I was just in a pay budgeting meeting this morning. The company in question had a budget of 7% and individuals got between 4% and 11% depending on personal performance and where they sit in the pay ranges. So, "some people got 11%" but those were high performers paid low in range.

 

[JonathanH]

Some Bus drivers got 18%

Do we know what they got between 2010 and 2021?

 

[43066]

The DATA shows that the overwhelming majority of major private sector employers have budgets that are noticeably below inflation. My OPINION is that most people are not particularly enthusiastic about a real terms cut. The phrase "no one" was intended as hyperbole - this is an internet forum, not an academic conference



People keep quoting exceptional cases. You only know about them because they are exceptional.

I realise that but you have held yourself out as being some sort of expert on what people get paid, and then completely undermined your own credibility by making absolute statements that can be immediately revealed as incorrect by a quick google search!

It appears you were wrong regarding the bus drivers demands, too. So, with all due respect, I won’t be taking any of your claims at face value.

 

[Broucek]

I won’t be taking anything else you claim at face value.

Am devastated

 

[Goldfish62]

That’s interesting, when our resident “pay consultant” perviously stated (regarding London bus drivers):

They actually got between 12 and 18% depending on seniority. The offer was imposed at the beginning of January. It was only after the company cancelled all overtime and rest days that the imposed offer was balloted on and accepted.

 

[Annetts key]

I can't comment on the non-pay parts of the deal but the reality is that no one in any industry is enthusiastic about their pay settlement this year. Most private sector budgets are 5-7% or so and I've not seen ANY in double-digits (I'm a pay consultant).

Therefore everyone is having a real-terms cut. It's not ideal but high inflation is a consequence of Putin/COVID-related supply chain issues and employers can't afford to keep up with it (and if they did, high inflation might become baked-in).

So are you suggesting that at some point, inflation will go negative, hence restoring the buying power of workers who have not had a pay rise in line with inflation?

 

[Goldfish62]

Do we know what they got between 2010 and 2021?

Bus drivers have been on historically low pay for a long time so there's been a bit of a rebalance.

Put simply companies have been able to fund larger than normal pay rises by cutting services. Those service cuts aren't generally threatening any driver jobs because of the ongoing shortage of bus drivers.

 

[43066]

They actually got between 12 and 18% depending on seniority. The offer was imposed at the beginning of January. It was only after the company cancelled all overtime and rest days that the imposed offer was balloted on and accepted.

Well I’m pleased to hear it. They certainly deserve a rise!

Odd that the company cancelled overtime when you would assume they would be reliant on staff doing overtime to operate the service and are not (AIUI) being bailed out like TOCs are by the government.

 

[Broucek]

So are you suggesting that at some point, inflation will go negative, hence restoring the buying power of workers who have not had a pay rise in line with inflation?

Over the long term, wages have tended to rise on average more than inflation, funded by productivity. That's on average, with lots of variation by industry and type of job. But when inflation goes high, that relationship may go into reverse with increases below inflation. I expect that if and when inflation normalises, wages will rise faster than it which will lead to a degree of catching up.

I must stress, all this is "on average" and may not fit with people's lived experiences.

 

[43066]

So are you suggesting that at some point, inflation will go negative, hence restoring the buying power of workers who have not had a pay rise in line with inflation?

I think the general consensus amongst economists is that, in the current circumstances, the idea that public sector pay rises risk stoking inflation is a figment of the Tory party’s imagination, especially as most disputes are being settled with below inflation pay rises…

Rishi Sunak says public sector pay rises will fuel inflation. Economists say they won't

The prime minister insists he cannot bow to unions' demands because that will raise inflation for everybody. Economics professors disagree, saying it is only private sector wage increases that have an impact on inflation.

news.sky.com

As more workers go on strike this month demanding their pay matches or beats inflation - which stands at 10.7% - two economics experts have told Sky News the government is not correct in its assessment.

They agreed increasing public sector wages would not push up inflation.

I have no doubt @Broucek will have a different view to these eminent economists. I also know who has more credibility, based on the discussion above!

 

[Goldfish62]

Well I’m pleased to hear it. They certainly deserve a rise!

Odd that the company cancelled overtime when you would assume they would be reliant on staff doing overtime to operate the service and are not (AIUI) being bailed out like TOCs are by the government.

You're certainly correct on the last point. As I understand it the penalties imposed by TfL have been severe.

Basically the company used cancelling overtime and rest days to break the deadlock and force a ballot. Short term pain was obviously worth it because it took less than a week between banning overtime and a positive ballot result (notwithstanding three more strike days in between).

 

[43066]

You're certainly correct on the last point. As I understand it the penalties imposed by TfL have been severe.

Basically the company used cancelling overtime and rest days to break the deadlock and force a ballot. Short term pain was obviously worth it because it took less than a week between banning overtime and a positive ballot result (notwithstanding three more strike days in between).

That sounds like a fairly despicable way to treat an already poorly paid workforce. And that very limited ability to strike, after jumping through goodness knows how many hoops, is what this government now wants to restrict further. Disgusting.

I’m actually pretty annoyed with myself for voting the way I did at the last GE. Then again there has been a lot of water under the bridge since then, and none of us could have predicted where we have ended up.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Ultimately, pay is about supply, demand and the economics of the business involved, not just year on year inflation.

Correct. USA for example is still short of STEM people. Hence, I can command a high salary. I could get even more if I was prepared to move again which I am not. Next move is retirement back to the UK.

 

[father_jack]

A well said summary from someone well "in the know" and ex trade union.....

TSSA is now mainly these days a managers union with a few clerical / admin ex BR CO grades still hanging on hoping for better. In truth some workers openly joined it so they could avoid ever having to take any action. Their ex GS Richard Rosser ( 1989 - 2004 ) in the late 90’s used to proclaim that the “ last time TSSA was on strike was the 1926 General strike “. That was their recruitment tool. They have improved a bit since then to be fair but not much. The latest shocking news of sexual harassment and abuse by key TSSA leaders probably spells the beginning of the end for this organisation. It’s likely though that it’s their manager members that voted for ANY deal. They have chucked their clerical and ticket office members under the bus. It’s those managers that will be doing any redundancy consultation and closing of ticket offices on behalf of the employers for misguided perceived favourable terms in their own departure agreements. In fairness RMT should rightly be proud of their industrial union heritage and that they want to unite grades when they can to fight together and win together. It is one industry and with this TSSA and USA boilermakers merger (what in God or Allah's name is that about !) it's clear there should be only one rail non driver union. Separate unions for different grades only serves to divide workers and this clearly aids and strengthens the employer. But TSSA have now 100% proved themselves to be Too Scared to Say Anything.....

 

[Carlisle]

I’m actually pretty annoyed with myself for voting the way I did at the last GE. Then again there has been a lot of water under the bridge since then, and none of us could have predicted where we have ended up.

The proposed Minimum service legislation was in the 2019 Conservative Manifesto so no surprises there.

 

[Thirteen]

TSSA are a bit of a mess anyway because of the fallout from the report.

The bus strikes were a success for Unite but it helps that buses aren't under the same sort of scrutiny as the railway.

 

[Bald Rick]

No. I read the letter attached which says 40% general grades rejected it...

that‘s correct. but previously you said:

40% all grades

(my bold) which is very different.

Not everyone. This government gave the barristers 15%. BT got 16%. There are a few more like that too

Indeed. The rail workers In this dispute. Some of whom are getting 12%.

So are you suggesting that at some point, inflation will go negative, hence restoring the buying power of workers who have not had a pay rise in line with inflation?

I think that is quite likely, in 10-15 months time.

A well said summary from someone well "in the know" and ex trade union.....

interesting comment about (the managers)… “have chucked their clerical and ticket office colleagues under the bus”. They were separate votes. Had the clerical and ticket office grades not voted to accept, them that part of the dispute would still be live. But they did vote to accept.

I, too, thought the TSSA would be a busted flush in union terms given the recent report. However I understand that there have been a number of people leaving the RMT as a result of not getting a vote on this deal, and joining the TSSA. I’m also hearing of more planning to do so when thus dispute is done. I don’t know how many of course, and I can only judge by what I’ve heard directly (including from some RMT reps!) but it’s certainly hundreds, and possibly into four figures if the same is happening across the country.

 

[43066]

Correct. USA for example is still short of STEM people. Hence, I can command a high salary. I could get even more if I was prepared to move again which I am not. Next move is retirement back to the UK.

Why on earth would you come back here?

I’d stay put if I were you, and retire to California (is there a more beautiful part of the world than the Californian coast?). Plus I gather Ginge and Whinge have lowered the property prices…

A well said summary from someone well "in the know" and ex trade union.....

Does anyone ever really join a union because they believe they won’t have to go on strike? Something isn’t adding up there.

The proposed Minimum service legislation was in the 2019 Conservative Manifesto so no surprises there.

Still worth it, in my view to a. get Brexit over the line and b. to prevent that lunatic Corbyn getting anywhere near No. 10. It’s off topic to discuss further, but that demonstrates how people take a holistic approach to voting and consider a wide range of issues they’re passionate about, often beyond their own economic self interest.

 

[Railwayowl80]

Someone has just sent me a photo of a letter for unite to vote on the deal now and that’s it’s to be voted toc by toc basis

 

[Bald Rick]

Someone has just sent me a photo of a letter for unite to vote on the deal now and that’s it’s to be voted toc by toc basis

The unite vote closes today, AIUI.

 

[Railwayowl80]

Didn’t even know it was happening afew friends at work are in untie what happens if they agree and rmt still carry on with strike action can they be a situation where different grades end up with different deals sorry I’m all new to this

 

[InkyScrolls]

I'm actually pretty annoyed with myself for voting the way I did at the last GE. Then again there has been a lot of water under the bridge since then, and none of us could have predicted where we have ended up.

I voted Blue in the last election, as I have my whole life - but that will not be the case at the next!

 

[Bald Rick]

Didn’t even know it was happening afew friends at work are in untie what happens if they agree and rmt still carry on with strike action can they be a situation where different grades end up with different deals sorry I’m all new to this

if the bargaining rights are with multiple unions, then all have to accept before the deal is done.

Lots of people in NR asking ‘if I leave the RMT can I have the pay rise’… sadly not.

 

[jayah]

I think the general consensus amongst economists is that, in the current circumstances, the idea that public sector pay rises risk stoking inflation is a figment of the Tory party’s imagination, especially as most disputes are being settled with below inflation pay rises…

Rishi Sunak says public sector pay rises will fuel inflation. Economists say they won't

The prime minister insists he cannot bow to unions' demands because that will raise inflation for everybody. Economics professors disagree, saying it is only private sector wage increases that have an impact on inflation.

news.sky.com

I have no doubt @Broucek will have a different view to these eminent economists. I also know who has more credibility, based on the discussion above!

You need to read beyond the first paragraph. The article says:

"The caveat is, of course, an increase in public expenditure could lead to inflation and public wages are one way public expenditure is increased, but the government could increase wages and cut other parts of the budget."

It is quite hard to cut 'other parts of the budget' when in places like police, healthcare and teaching, the wages are more than half of the budget.

There is also an obvious error that the government doesn't produce anything therefore there is no price impact.

Railway worker pay will inevitably affect ticket prices, likewise the NHS and hospital parking or prescriptions.

That is before the obvious effect on private sector wage demands and the even more obvious point that the government is committed to halving inflation, not allowing it to continue at 10.5% forever.

 

[Railwayowl80]

Ok thanks for clearing up

Copied the last part he sent…

For clarity, the proposed national principles for reforming working practices that form part of this offer, if agreed, would be discussed locally with Trade Union Representatives in line with our collective bargaining arrangements before being agreed at EMR. Payment to colleagues would follow this agreement.

Is that suggesting it would be up to emr to implement any of the changes in the deal being put forward

 

[43066]

I voted Blue in the last election, as I have my whole life - but that will not be the case at the next!

Most other “true blue-ers” I know say the same. This is why they’re going to be utterly annihilated at the next election.

It’s actually quite difficult to process, in the sense that I now feel completely politically homeless. They simply aren’t a sensible, centre-right, moderate party of aspiration any longer. They’ve become a bunch of hard-right, swivel eyed reactionaries, led by corrupt millionaires feathering their own nests. They badly need some time in opposition to regroup and get rid of the lunatics.

I’m absolutely furious about it and I could go on, and on, and on. I’ll stop ranting now because it’s off topic (apologies).

 

[RPI]

A well said summary from someone well "in the know" and ex trade union.....

A tiny bit of research would have shown that story to be a work of the imagination, the managers and general grades were balloted in two separate elections (I know, I had a vote, and I voted).

 

[InkyScrolls]

Most other “true blue-ers” I know say the same. This is why they’re going to be utterly annihilated at the next election.

It’s actually quite difficult to process, in the sense that I now feel completely politically homeless. They simply aren’t a sensible, centre-right, moderate party of aspiration any longer. They’ve become a bunch of hard-right, swivel eyed reactionaries, led by corrupt millionaires feathering their own nests. They badly need some time in opposition to regroup and get rid of the lunatics.

I’m absolutely furious about it and I could go on, and on, and on. I’ll stop ranting now because it’s off topic (apologies).

'Politically homeless' is about right - if Labour do win, as seems very likely, it will hopefully give the Conservatives a bit of a wake-up call - or could this perhaps be a time for the LDs to shine. . ?

But yes, off topic!