Tunbridge Wells - Farnham Not Via London

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TD

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I would like to make this journey on a "not via London" fare. I know that via Gomshall is permitted, but what about via Redhill and Clapham Junction? Webtis says yes, NRE says no and my own interogation of the routeing guide says yes.

Also what about Tunbridge Wells ==> Orpington ==> Herne Hill ==> Wimbledon ==> Surbition ==> Farnham? Again Webtis says yes, NRE no. To trace this route on the routeing guide maps, you have to trace via London, but then avoid the London group itself. Sometimes this is the next available departure, so is it valid?

Thanks for your help!
 
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johnnycache

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Welcome!

I'm not very good at this yet so i'll have a go and an expert will hopefully check it for accuracy

Using the pink pages of the routeing guide Tunbridge Wells has routeing points
TONBRIDGE and HASTINGS GROUP (ie Hastings+St Leonards Warrior Square)

Farnham has routeing points ASH VALE, FARNBOROUGH GROUP (Farnborough Main, Farnborough North and Blackwater) and GUILDFORD

Ignoring Hastings as being likely to have a much higher fare lets consider
Tonbridge to Ash Vale, Farnborough Group and Guildford

Tonbridge to Ash Vale: LONDON, CS+WW
Tonbridge to Farnborough Group: CS
Tonbridge to Guildford: LONDON, CS

For the LONDON routeings you take the route to London and then the route from London

Tonbridge to London: LK, LK+SD+LB, LK+SL, LL, LL+SL
London to Ash Vale: WW+WX

Tonbridge to London: LK, LK+SD+LB, LK+SL, LL, LL+SL
London to Guildford: DK, PD, PD+SC, PD+SC+WX, WX+SC+PD

Working through these:

Tonbridge to Ash Vale CS+WW

Map CS allows Tonbridge to Redhill, Dorking and Guildford and Map WW takes you on to Ash Vale via Aldershot
Map CS allows Tonbridge to Redhill, Croydon and Clapham Junction and Map WW takes you on to Wimbledon, Surbiton, Woking and Ash Vale

So that's OK as long as the fare from Tonbridge to Ash Vale in NFM64 was no more than the fare from Tunbridge Wells to Farnham

Tonbridge to Farnborough Group: Map CS allows Tonbridge to Redhill, Dorking, Guildford and Farnborough

i'm not sure how this enables you to get to Farnham

Tonbridge to Guildford: Map CS allows Tonbridge to Redhill, Dorking, Guildford and then you can continue to Farnham via Aldershot

Tonbridge to London:
LB: allows Redhill, Croydon, Streatham Clapham Junction or Croydon, Crystal Palace, Tulse Hill, Herne Hill
LK allows Tonbridge Sevenoaks, Bromley South then Crystal Palace, Streatham, Clapham Junction or Beckenham Junction, Herne Hill or Peckham Rye
LL doesn't add much to LK except Peckham Rye to Clapham Junction
SD: this adds Sutton to Wimbledon which isn't very helpful in this case
SL: this adds Herne Hill, Tulse Hill, Streatham, Wimbledon

London to Ash Vale:
WW:allows Clapham Junction, Wimbledon, Surbiton, Woking, Ash Vale
WX: this adds Woking to Guildford

Therefore Tonbridge to Ash Vale (excluding London) allows:

Tonbridge, Sevenoaks, Bromley South, Crystal Palace, (Tulse Hill) Streatham (LK), Wimbledon (SL), Surbiton, Woking, Ash Vale (WW)
Tonbridge, Sevenoaks, Bromley South, Beckenham Junction, Herne Hill (LK), Tulse Hill, Wimbledon (SL), Surbiton, Woking, Ash Vale (WW)
Tonbridge, Redhill, Croydon, Streatham, Clapham Junction (LB), Wimbledon, Surbiton, Woking, Ash Vale (WW)

To name just a few possibilities

London to Guildford:
DK: Clapham Junction, Wimbledon, Epsom, Guildford
PD: Clapham Junction, Wimbledon, Surbiton, Woking, Guildford also via Cobham
SC: This adds Herne Hill, Tulse Hill, Streatham, Wimbledon
WX: Doesn't add anything to PD

Therefore Tonbridge to Guildford (excluding London) allows:

Tonbridge, Redhill, Croydon, Clapham Junction (LB), Wimbledon, Surbiton, Woking and Guildford (PD) then on to Farnham via Aldershot
Tonbridge, Sevenoaks, Bromley South, Beckenham Junction, Herne Hill (LK), Tulse Hill, Wimbledon (SL), Surbiton, Woking, Guildford (PD)

The main poiint i wasn't sure about was "can you use the London maps but avoid the London Terminals" - i decided you could!

Phew I hope that's right!
 

yorkie

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The main poiint i wasn't sure about was "can you use the London maps but avoid the London Terminals" - i decided you could!
Agreed. I believe the only possible interpretation is that you can, as there are some flows where there is a "Not via London" flow, but the only routeing option is "LONDON".

Also "Not via London" only means not via either London Terminals or not via the London Routeing Group (there is some uncertainty as to which; but it makes no practical difference whatsoever for London).
 

kieron

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Also "Not via London" only means not via either London Terminals or not via the London Routeing Group (there is some uncertainty as to which; but it makes no practical difference whatsoever for London).
I don't see much merit in the latter position. For instance, Merseyrail price two routes from Edge Hill to Liverpool South Parkway; ANY PERMITTED and VIA LIVERPOOL. As Edge Hill is a member of the Liverpool Routeing Group, the two would be identical if the routeing group affected ticket validity.

I wouldn't be surprised if there are tickets which make more sense using the other interpretation, though.
 

yorkie

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I don't see much merit in the latter position. For instance, Merseyrail price two routes from Edge Hill to Liverpool South Parkway; ANY PERMITTED and VIA LIVERPOOL. As Edge Hill is a member of the Liverpool Routeing Group, the two would be identical if the routeing group affected ticket validity.

I wouldn't be surprised if there are tickets which make more sense using the other interpretation, though.
You can add Route: "NOT VIA BIRMINGHAM" tickets that assume you travel via Aston (a member of Birmingham Group, but not Birmingham Stns) to that list, e.g. Witton to Gravelly Hill.

So yes, I am inclined to agree it is more likely intended to mean the former rather than the latter.

However that doesn't explain Route: "VIA GLOUCESTER" fares for which you are intended to travel via Cheltenham but not necessarily Gloucester, for example Rugby to Bristol Parkway. One possibility is that via Gloucester originally referred to Gloucester Group, however when the group was abolished it should have been re-named via Cheltenham but could not be re-named due to (ineffective) regulation or simply an oversight.
 

TD

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Agreed. I believe the only possible interpretation is that you can, as there are some flows where there is a "Not via London" flow, but the only routeing option is "LONDON".

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you, but could you give me an example of one of these flows please?

I'm still a little sceptical about using the maps via London to avoid London. As an example, I have Ascot to Herne Hill but the not London route qualifies by being the shortest, making the routeing guide redundant.
 

yorkie

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Sorry for the delay in getting back to you, but could you give me an example of one of these flows please?

I'm still a little sceptical about using the maps via London to avoid London. As an example, I have Ascot to Herne Hill but the not London route qualifies by being the shortest, making the routeing guide redundant.
Ashford [[stn]AFK[/stn]] - East Croydon [[stn]ECR[/stn]].

The only map option is "LONDON" which means all the mapped routes shown on the origin to London maps, plus all the mapped routes shown on the London to destination maps, intersecting at an appropriate location where the maps meet.

In this case, it's quite easy to intersect without passing through London Terminals, thererefore there are 'Rte: Not London' fares available.
 

TD

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Ashford [[stn]AFK[/stn]] - East Croydon [[stn]ECR[/stn]].

The only map option is "LONDON" which means all the mapped routes shown on the origin to London maps, plus all the mapped routes shown on the London to destination maps, intersecting at an appropriate location where the maps meet.

In this case, it's quite easy to intersect without passing through London Terminals, thererefore there are 'Rte: Not London' fares available.

yorkie, this is an interesting example. What I was objecting to with my Ascot - Herne Hill example was that not London is the shortest route. Again this is the case here. But via Redhill (56.75 miles) is a permitted (and logical) not London route and yet is over 3 miles longer than via Orpington, Bromley South and Penge East/West (52.75 miles). I cannot find an easement permitting this. So via Redhill must be pieced together by maps via London, namely LK then LB. In conclusion, I have to accept that maps via London can be used for routes avoiding London.

Thanks for your help!
 

yorkie

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Thanks for your help!
No problem!

Perhaps you'd be interested in attending one of our Fares workshops if you're interested in such complexities :) Unfortunately all the London ones in the Summer are full (unless I get people dropping out - PM me to be put on the list in case this happens) but there will be some more in the Autumn.
 
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