Turbostar and Desiro trains with buffet counters and guards offices.

[stadler]

I seem to remember very vaguely that certain Turbostar units and certain Desiro units used to have buffet counters and guards offices on them? Does anyone remember exact details of which trains had buffet counters and which trains had guards offices?

 

[Bletchleyite]

350/1 and 450 had guard offices; on the former they were never used. 444 had buffet counters and I think guard offices too.

 

[JonathanH]

Three car turbostar units 170101-170110 (Midland Mainline), 170201-170208 (Anglia Railways), 170393-170396 (Hull Trains) were all fitted with buffet counters.

See also https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/emr-class-170-updates.202522/page-61#post-6209623

 

[Taunton]

These seemed a complete duplication of the 100 Modernisation Plan 3-car trains built for the Western Region around 1960, buffet counter (hardly used), luggage compartment (ditto) and excessive first class (ditto). Because of overcrowding in what remained they could be marshalled up into 6-car sets, which thus duplicated the overprovision of all this.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I remember the 450 guards office from my school days and don’t ever remember seeing anyone in there.

 

[edwin_m]

Three car turbostar units 170101-170110 (Midland Mainline)

The centre car with the buffet and first class was added after the units came into service, due to problems with overcrowding and the original first class behind the cabs being seen as too similar to Standard. The remaining seven units in the fleet didn't get these.

 

[WesternLancer]

These seemed a complete duplication of the 100 Modernisation Plan 3-car trains built for the Western Region around 1960, buffet counter (hardly used), luggage compartment (ditto) and excessive first class (ditto). Because of overcrowding in what remained they could be marshalled up into 6-car sets, which thus duplicated the overprovision of all this.

Interesting observation.

Remember that MML at the time of their introduction were offering free tea and coffee to all passengers (probably a key part of their initial franchise win as far as passengers were concerned) so I suspect the buffet counter area was vital....as otherwise you would be dishing out even more free tea from a trolley at seat - IIRC you had to go to the buffet counter to get your free brew.
And serving an Inter City route probably 1st class ticket holders would have ended up on them often enough.

 

[edwin_m]

Interesting observation.

Remember that MML at the time of their introduction were offering free tea and coffee to all passengers (probably a key part of their initial franchise win as far as passengers were concerned) so I suspect the buffet counter area was vital....as otherwise you would be dishing out even more free tea from a trolley at seat - IIRC you had to go to the buffet counter to get your free brew.
And serving an Inter City route probably 1st class ticket holders would have ended up on them often enough.

However, this also applied before the units got buffets and continued to apply to those that didn't. So tea and coffee must have been served from the trolley.

 

[WesternLancer]

However, this also applied before the units got buffets and continued to apply to those that didn't. So tea and coffee must have been served from the trolley.

That's an interesting point. I rarely used them on MML as of course the HST option was preferable in my view so I can't recall.

 

[Dr Hoo]

That's an interesting point. I rarely used them on MML as of course the HST option was preferable in my view so I can't recall.

Yes, the trolley on the Midlands Mainline Class 170s did serve free hot drinks. The free kids’ Track Packs (or whatever they were called) were also available as long as the franchise agreement required.

 

[swt_passenger]

I remember the 450 guards office from my school days and don’t ever remember seeing anyone in there.

On the other hand I regularly saw them in use travelling between Eastleigh and Waterloo. Of course that’s a route where thorough ticket checks were made so it was only ever a base for the guard, but they definitely left their stuff in there and returned there when done ticketing. But in inner areas with non-commercial guards did they generally use the cabs on 450s?

IIRC someone posted years ago that LM guards refused to use the office because it put them in too close contact with the public…

 

[stadler]

Thank you for the replies. That is very helpful. I was certain i remember these buffets and guard offices.

So just to clarify i have understood correctly:

Buffet Counter And Guards Office:
170 (201-208), 444,

Buffet Counter Only (No Guards Office):
170 (101-110), 170 (393-396),

Guards Office Only (No Buffet Counter):
350/1, 450,

No Buffet Counter And No Guards Office:
168, 170 (except above units), 171, 172, 185, 350/2, 350/3, 350/4, 360, 380,

Can anyone also remember which Turbostar units had extra first class seating? Most of the Turbostar units solely had first class in the eight or nine seats behind the drivers cabs. I know some (eg SN 171/7s etc) had first class only at one end and some (eg SWT 170/3s and SN 171/8s etc) had first class at both ends. But i seem to remember the Hull Trains 170s had almost an entire carriage of first class seating. The section between the two doors in one carriage was also first clas. Can anyone else remember this on the Hull Trains units and confirm i am remembing it right and did any of the Anglia Railways or Midland Mainline ones also have this extra first class seating?

Also found these photos online of the Hull Trains and Midland Mainline buffets:







I think the first and third photos are both from the Hull Trains units and the second photo is from the Midland Mainline units.

I would be very interested to see a photo of the Anglia Railways buffets and guard compartments if anyone can find a photo anywhere? From what it sounds like they had a different layout?

 

[Russel]

350/1 and 450 had guard offices; on the former they were never used. 444 had buffet counters and I think guard offices too.

Was on a 444 last week and looked for where the buffet used to be as I'd not used on since the removal, the huge windowless wall gave the location away!

IIRC someone posted years ago that LM guards refused to use the office because it put them in too close contact with the public…

Given how many ticket checks I've had between Euston and the Trent Valley, that I can very well believe!

 

[Transilien]

Was on a 444 last week and looked for where the buffet used to be as I'd not used on since the removal, the huge windowless wall gave the location away!

I have never been able to find a photo of one before.

Guards Office Only (No Buffet Counter):
350/1, 450,

What was the point of the 450s having guard compartments when they are suburban units? It just seems like a waste of capacity!

 

[JonathanH]

What was the point of the 450s having guard compartments when they are suburban units? It just seems like a waste of capacity!

Outer suburban units on a route with guards. The idea being that if you have guards aboard, they might as well be visible and not locked away in a cab. They replaced trains where the guard could be found in the brake coach.

 

[Sealink]

I have never been able to find a photo of one before.



What was the point of the 450s having guard compartments when they are suburban units? It just seems like a waste of capacity!

I think SWR are required to have guards on all services, some throwback to years ago.

 

[edwin_m]

The centre cars added to the MML 170s also included a better First Class with very large seats that perhaps weren't quite as comfortable as they looked. I think the Anglia ones had the same.

 

[Snow1964]

What was the point of the 450s having guard compartments when they are suburban units? It just seems like a waste of capacity!

The 450s weren't suburban, they replaced CIGs and VEPs on services to Bournemouth and Portsmouth etc. In their early days skipped virtually everywhere between Surbiton (or Woking) and Waterloo.

On stopping services the guard would usually put coat and bag in them, and patrol the train and be visible and do tickets. When they were introduced some of the more rural stations had permit to travel machines instead of TVMs (and buying tickets online wasn't a thing 20-25 years ago). They weren't the hide in back cab type of guard on Waterloo suburban services.

 

[Taunton]

It does appear that such facilities are provided more as a paperwork compliance aspect rather than meeting genuine passenger needs. This seems particularly to apply to first class provision, where I understand Orcats only allocates first class ticket sales to services providing first class accommodation. The longstanding pretence by East Midlands that they provided a meaningful service from Leeds to London, when they were really just depot runs at obscure hours with HSTs, was part of this.

 

[Russel]

I have never been able to find a photo of one before.

I can't find one, but it can be seen in this youtube video at about 2.40

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you for the replies. That is very helpful. I was certain i remember these buffets and guard offices.

So just to clarify i have understood correctly:

Buffet Counter And Guards Office:
170 (201-208), 444,

Buffet Counter Only (No Guards Office):
170 (101-110), 170 (393-396),

Guards Office Only (No Buffet Counter):
350/1, 450,

No Buffet Counter And No Guards Office:
168, 170 (except above units), 171, 172, 185, 350/2, 350/3, 350/4, 360, 380,

Can anyone also remember which Turbostar units had extra first class seating? Most of the Turbostar units solely had first class in the eight or nine seats behind the drivers cabs. I know some (eg SN 171/7s etc) had first class only at one end and some (eg SWT 170/3s and SN 171/8s etc) had first class at both ends. But i seem to remember the Hull Trains 170s had almost an entire carriage of first class seating. The section between the two doors in one carriage was also first clas. Can anyone else remember this on the Hull Trains units and confirm i am remembing it right and did any of the Anglia Railways or Midland Mainline ones also have this extra first class seating?

Also found these photos online of the Hull Trains and Midland Mainline buffets:

View attachment 181740

View attachment 181741

View attachment 181743

I think the first and third photos are both from the Hull Trains units and the second photo is from the Midland Mainline units.

I would be very interested to see a photo of the Anglia Railways buffets and guard compartments if anyone can find a photo anywhere? From what it sounds like they had a different layout?

Great to get those interior pics - I find sourcing interior pictures of carriages is often quite difficult - less so from trains in the digital era I guess but still not as easy as you would expect I tend to think.

 

[Dr Hoo]

It does appear that such facilities are provided more as a paperwork compliance aspect rather than meeting genuine passenger needs. This seems particularly to apply to first class provision, where I understand Orcats only allocates first class ticket sales to services providing first class accommodation. The longstanding pretence by East Midlands that they provided a meaningful service from Leeds to London, when they were really just depot runs at obscure hours with HSTs, was part of this.

The Midlands Mainline Class 170s basically provided all the off-peak stopping services south of Leicester. Immediately after their introduction HSTs only called sporadically in the peaks. So there was an established and not insignificant First Class business to/from Market Harborough, Kettering and Wellingborough in particular.

 

[swt_passenger]

I can't find one, but it can be seen in this youtube video at about 2.40

It always seemed to me that they (Siemens or SWT) must have made a conscious decision to put every additional feature into that one car, ie mini-buffet, guards office, universal toilet, wheelchair spaces, and even the (unused) pantograph well.

To the extent that the other two non-driving vehicles are effectively just the same as hauled coaches. It can be seen from the outside that there’s basically nothing below the sole bar on the two TSOs.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I can't find one, but it can be seen in this youtube video at about 2.40

2:52 for the guard’s office, 2:54 for the buffet, the thing at 2:40 is a disabled toilet…

 

[Transilien]

I can't find one, but it can be seen in this youtube video at about 2.40

Thank you

 

[Flange Squeal]

There was also a slight difference between the guard’s offices (or goldfish bowls as traincrew called them!) on South West Trains’ Desiros that I don’t think has been mentioned yet. The 450s contained a swivel chair in front of a desk on which to put kit and ticket machine bag, with a pull out table and a cupboard beneath the desk containing a plug socket. There was also a fire extinguisher and set of Track Circuit Operating Clips. The difference was that 444s also had a CCTV (Closed Circuit Television) console allowing the guard to flick through internal images along the train.

 

[Russel]

2:52 for the guard’s office, 2:54 for the buffet, the thing at 2:40 is a disabled toilet…

I know, the time stamp was only a rough guess as I couldn't be bothered to re-watch it to get an accurate one!

 

[Iddybiddy05]

On the other hand I regularly saw them in use travelling between Eastleigh and Waterloo. Of course that’s a route where thorough ticket checks were made so it was only ever a base for the guard, but they definitely left their stuff in there and returned there when done ticketing. But in inner areas with non-commercial guards did they generally use the cabs on 450s?

IIRC someone posted years ago that LM guards refused to use the office because it put them in too close contact with the public…

100% not correct, the original 350 sets where the cancelled 450 5 car sets, redirected to the west coast. They where identical to the SWT sets as they where destine for down there - they even came with the shirt circuit bars in the cabs. They where identical office was fitted out oath a frame work for coffee / tea pots and space for a trolley which was very used.

Guards were initially instructed that they weren’t to be in the cabs at any point aside from stowing equipment prior to departure, they were to be visible in the train. That didn’t last long !

 

[43096]

100% not correct, the original 350 sets where the cancelled 450 5 car sets, redirected to the west coast.

Strictly speaking the 32 x 5-car 450 sets were delivered as 40 x 4-car: 450101-110 for SWT and 350101-130 for West Coast Silverlink/Central workings.

 

[JonathanH]

100% not correct, the original 350 sets where the cancelled 450 5 car sets, redirected to the west coast.

Strictly speaking I think they were part of the cancelled 450 5-car sets. The plan was for 32 5-car units - 160 vehicles. That became 40 4-car units - 450101-450110 and 350101-350130.

As you say, they were fitted with guards offices like the 450s.