TVM - How much Cash ?

[Harbon 1]

There's no limit of pound coins that it spits back out at you, that's for sure

 

[richw]

Couldnt tell you and I doubt you would ever find out for security reasons.

Although I imagine could be worked out approximately, through ticket sales figures overall for a station compared with sales facilities available.

Sent from my HTC Sensation Z710e using Tapatalk 2

 

[Clip]

Although I imagine could be worked out approximately, through ticket sales figures overall for a station compared with sales facilities available.

Sent from my HTC Sensation Z710e using Tapatalk 2

Only for stations that didnt offer a clerk & window. But even then you couldnt say how much cash as you wouldnt know the figures between cash or card.

It even fluctuates at stations that have both window and TVM - even busy terminals. I know one I used to managed would be busier some fridays peaks than the ticket window with 4 or 5 people on it for cash payments then the next week the ticket window would be. Its not an exact science

 

[RJ]

There's no limit of pound coins that it spits back out at you, that's for sure

Maybe not, but the magazine in the S&B machines won't take more than £106 worth!

 

[jon0844]

Fruit machines have hoppers that can take £250, but were (back when it was a £25 jackpot) usually loaded with £125. If there was a note taker on the front, it got the £250 - because anyone putting in a £20 and playing just 25p could cash out, and have all the money paid back in coins.

When the float fell below a certain level, the note changer went out of use.. below another level and you'd get the CL (coins low) light and risk having the machine saying 'IOU £nn Call Attendant'.

Club machines hold even more. Now we've got £70 jackpots in pubs, I expect the hoppers might be floated with even more coins. As said above, these things can hold an awful lot of coins (and that's why they'll be worth breaking into).

I'd expect a TVM to hold a lot less, and drop coins that 'overflow' into a secure cash box that's low down and not easy to get at.

Perhaps TOCs should go around and empty the machines more frequently? And definitely not leave money in them overnight. And perhaps install posts to avoid ram raiding... all things that could be done instead of taking the easy option and not installing a TVM at all.

 

[jopsuk]

Well thats as much use as a chocolate teapot

They still take cards. They're at unbarriered stations, so if you need to pay by cash I assume that you're able to pay an RPI if you encounter one or pay at destination without Penalty Fares being applied

Or, of course, if it's a weekday/Saturday morning pay at the ticket office

 

[AndyLandy]

Oddly enough a PERTIS has room for a good few hundred quid in coins in there too

That doesn't surprise me, really. I was under the impression that if you buy a PTT, you can (and allegedly should) put in the full amount for your fare if you know it. Of course, I imagine most people just put in 10-20p to get a "proof of start point" and pay the difference at the excess fares window upon arrival.

 

[Clip]

Perhaps TOCs should go around and empty the machines more frequently? And definitely not leave money in them overnight. And perhaps install posts to avoid ram raiding... all things that could be done instead of taking the easy option and not installing a TVM at all.

Maybe they do - but you need to leave enough money in there for eventualities - like Booking office closed unexpectedly the next day and no cover so you still have to have the option - especially in PF land to sell to those who wish to pay cash.

Ramraiding TVMs is not a problem AFAIK as most that I have encountered are no where near to a road and if so the pavement has bollards anyway.

West Ruislip has them just so they cant open it should the break the seal IIRC

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Would fear of being mugged be an excuse NOT to use a TVM? Say if a young girl said that she didn't buy a ticket from the machine because there was a gang hanging around it at one of those unstaffed South East London stations ?

 

[Clip]

Would fear of being mugged be an excuse NOT to use a TVM? Say if a young girl said that she didn't buy a ticket from the machine because there was a gang hanging around it at one of those unstaffed South East London stations ?

Not sure. She would probably have an Oyster anyway so could always have topped it up at a shop. But if she was worried about ladds hanging round would she be wanting to get on a train with them there anyway? Or even wait at the station?

 

[jon0844]

That doesn't surprise me, really. I was under the impression that if you buy a PTT, you can (and allegedly should) put in the full amount for your fare if you know it. Of course, I imagine most people just put in 10-20p to get a "proof of start point" and pay the difference at the excess fares window upon arrival.

Doesn't London Underground still have posters at stations giving the prices for every station on the network? It wouldn't be impossible to have a printed sign showing the popular fares, so people would know what to put in the permit to travel machine. You could then begin to clamp down on anyone putting in just 5p.

Or, if you're trying to do away with cash handling for security reasons, just issue a totally free permit which clearly marks the time it was issued and where. Perhaps even have a validator or some sort on the train you board, to stamp the ticket and confirm that you actually boarded a train at a particular station and exactly when. And validating the ticket would be compulsory.

If you operate a route with mostly unstaffed stations with a high security risk, you've now removed the cash problem. And at the destination, where it might be staffed, you have machines before the gate that takes the permit and - like a car park machine - charges you the relevant amount and issues the correct ticket. You now exit as normal. If the machine doesn't work, you approach a member of staff.

If you just walk out and get stopped, you're caught bang to rights.

At stations that are unstaffed for exiting too and with no facilities to pay, you probably just have to accept that if you (the TOC) won't staff them and provide ticketing purchasing facilities that the person can exit without paying. Rather than punish these people, you accept the loss of revenue in return for the savings of not providing facilities to sell a ticket.

I don't see how it can be allowed to continue as it is. The honest passenger shouldn't need to suffer simply because of a security problem for the train operator.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Maybe they do - but you need to leave enough money in there for eventualities - like Booking office closed unexpectedly the next day and no cover so you still have to have the option - especially in PF land to sell to those who wish to pay cash.

FCC could (and did) leave TVMs with 'No paper stock' errors on their outdoor machines on a Friday afternoon - leaving no way to buy a ticket after the ticket office closed. And I don't know what time Hatfield is supposed to close on a Friday (it's 8pm I think), but for a time they were short staffed and it would be closed around 5 or 6pm.

I was somewhat amazed that a train company would knowingly leave TVMs out of service on a Friday evening when people are going in to town for a night out. Not only that, but making passengers have to now convince RPIs that they couldn't get a ticket and hoping the machines were correctly reporting themselves as out of service - and that the building had closed early.

 

[AndyLandy]

Or, if you're trying to do away with cash handling for security reasons, just issue a totally free permit which clearly marks the time it was issued and where. Perhaps even have a validator or some sort on the train you board, to stamp the ticket and confirm that you actually boarded a train at a particular station and exactly when. And validating the ticket would be compulsory.

The only problem with that is that there'd be people who just press the button for a free PTT just for the sake of it. If there's a small cost associated with it, you encourage only those who explicitly want one to get one, and stop idiots pressing the button repeatedly until the machine is out of paper. Maybe the compromise is you fix the price at 5p or 10p or whatever.

 

[jon0844]

We have a local car park that offers 1 hour free parking. You must press to get a ticket (without putting in any money), and you could press over and over if you so wished.

There's a bit of a delay, however, between issuing each ticket and I'd hope that people would get bored quite quickly.

Every idea will have a downside, but hopefully less than having stations with no ticketing facilities at all.

 

[AndyLandy]

Every idea will have a downside, but hopefully less than having stations with no ticketing facilities at all.

Quoted for Truth.

The lack of ticket-buying facilities is pretty lamentable in many locations. There are lots of ideas floating around, surely at least some of them must be better than "do nothing"

 

[telstarbox]

Doesn't London Underground still have posters at stations giving the prices for every station on the network? It wouldn't be impossible to have a printed sign showing the popular fares, so people would know what to put in the permit to travel machine. You could then begin to clamp down on anyone putting in just 5p.

And this has been done in the past - Connex South Eastern (as it was back then) used to display the prices for popular single and return tickets next to the PTT machine, before the PTT machines were replaced with full ticket machines.

 

[transmanche]

That doesn't surprise me, really. I was under the impression that if you buy a PTT, you can (and allegedly should) put in the full amount for your fare if you know it. Of course, I imagine most people just put in 10-20p to get a "proof of start point" and pay the difference at the excess fares window upon arrival.

It wouldn't be impossible to have a printed sign showing the popular fares, so people would know what to put in the permit to travel machine. You could then begin to clamp down on anyone putting in just 5p.

However I have been advised on a number of occasions by on-board revenue staff to "just stick 10p or 20p in them, as they're not very reliable", after putting in £3 or £4 into one.

So no wonder that a habit has developed of only putting a small amount. It would be unreasonable to start PFing people now for doing that.

 

[jon0844]

There's still no reason not to try again. If someone claimed they only had 5p, then they could be done for not having enough money to buy a ticket. I am sure you could use a more reliable machine than the old ones from the 1980s.

Dare I say it, but if you had a permit to travel machine at your local station and had to overpay (say the fare was £1.60 and you only had pound coins) - when you arrived at your destination and put it in the machine to buy the correct ticket, any overpayment could be refunded.

I am sure we could collectively think of a load of solutions, then look at the potential downsides of each, then come up with workarounds and ultimately have a workable solution in a matter of days.

The same permit machines could also take cards, perhaps working like a hotel/restaurant where it will pre-authorise a certain amount and then charge the correct amount when you convert to your proper ticket later on.

 

[transmanche]

There's still no reason not to try again.

True, although sometimes it's hard to change ingrained habits.

I think a lot of this problem will be eliminated when proper smart-card ticketing is available. Especially if it's a multo-operator card with the ease of topping up the balance as you get with Oyster. Yes, there will be the infrequent traveller to deal with - but the bulk of the problem will simply not exist.

 

[SS4]

True, although sometimes it's hard to change ingrained habits.

I think a lot of this problem will be eliminated when proper smart-card ticketing is available. Especially if it's a multo-operator card with the ease of topping up the balance as you get with Oyster. Yes, there will be the infrequent traveller to deal with - but the bulk of the problem will simply not exist.

Smart-card ticketing is an entirely not topic but eliminating break of journey and split ticketing to a small degree will end up costing passengers more.

The status quo isn't that bad and if it ain't broke don't fix it.

 

[island]

That doesn't surprise me, really. I was under the impression that if you buy a PTT, you can (and allegedly should) put in the full amount for your fare if you know it. Of course, I imagine most people just put in 10-20p to get a "proof of start point" and pay the difference at the excess fares window upon arrival.

It's unclear whether that is allowed.

 

[jon0844]

I deliberately kept smart cards out of this thread but do believe they will solve most issues long term.

 

[Tomonthetrain]

There's still no reason not to try again. If someone claimed they only had 5p, then they could be done for not having enough money to buy a ticket. I am sure you could use a more reliable machine than the old ones from the 1980s.

Surely they should just fit TVMs to all stations accepting Cards and Cash. That means no excuses and no way of claiming not to know the ticket.

Or even better have a STAFFED booking office at ALL stations meaning that there is no excuse. And fit gatelines whilst we're at it!

 

[Goatboy]

I never crossed a single gateline when using rail systems in 5 different European countries this Summer.

Are we British just more scammy or something?

 

[Deerfold]

I never crossed a single gateline when using rail systems in 5 different European countries this Summer.

Are we British just more scammy or something?

In my experience there are fewer checks in most of Europe but high on the spot penalties if you've evaded a fare - and with ID cards compulsary in many countries they're hard to avoid (don't forget you have to carry your passport if you're a British tourist in much of Europe).

 

[Flamingo]

I never crossed a single gateline when using rail systems in 5 different European countries this Summer.

Are we British just more scammy or something?

Yes. What's your point?

 

[Clip]

Doesn't London Underground still have posters at stations giving the prices for every station on the network? It wouldn't be impossible to have a printed sign showing the popular fares, so people would know what to put in the permit to travel machine. You could then begin to clamp down on anyone putting in just 5p.

Or, if you're trying to do away with cash handling for security reasons, just issue a totally free permit which clearly marks the time it was issued and where. Perhaps even have a validator or some sort on the train you board, to stamp the ticket and confirm that you actually boarded a train at a particular station and exactly when. And validating the ticket would be compulsory.

If you operate a route with mostly unstaffed stations with a high security risk, you've now removed the cash problem. And at the destination, where it might be staffed, you have machines before the gate that takes the permit and - like a car park machine - charges you the relevant amount and issues the correct ticket. You now exit as normal. If the machine doesn't work, you approach a member of staff.

If you just walk out and get stopped, you're caught bang to rights.

At stations that are unstaffed for exiting too and with no facilities to pay, you probably just have to accept that if you (the TOC) won't staff them and provide ticketing purchasing facilities that the person can exit without paying. Rather than punish these people, you accept the loss of revenue in return for the savings of not providing facilities to sell a ticket.

Some stations you just cant staff though and even if you could would it be worth it for one that only see's 1tph in each direction?

FCC could (and did) leave TVMs with 'No paper stock' errors on their outdoor machines on a Friday afternoon - leaving no way to buy a ticket after the ticket office closed. And I don't know what time Hatfield is supposed to close on a Friday (it's 8pm I think), but for a time they were short staffed and it would be closed around 5 or 6pm.

I was somewhat amazed that a train company would knowingly leave TVMs out of service on a Friday evening when people are going in to town for a night out. Not only that, but making passengers have to now convince RPIs that they couldn't get a ticket and hoping the machines were correctly reporting themselves as out of service - and that the building had closed early.

Did they? Bloody hell thats just stupid. At least just switch them to card only if you're that worried about it.

Surely they should just fit TVMs to all stations accepting Cards and Cash. That means no excuses and no way of claiming not to know the ticket.

Or even better have a STAFFED booking office at ALL stations meaning that there is no excuse. And fit gatelines whilst we're at it!

Yes what an excellent idea. And how would you like to pay for that sir? I dont need to sit here and rattle off stations that this would just be highly impractical but also cost a bloody fortune.

However I have been advised on a number of occasions by on-board revenue staff to "just stick 10p or 20p in them, as they're not very reliable", after putting in £3 or £4 into one.

So no wonder that a habit has developed of only putting a small amount. It would be unreasonable to start PFing people now for doing that.

One thinks they were telling you porkies there. Its easier to give change for a ticket that costs £5.20 with a nominal amount on a PTT then it is for someone who has put a couple of quid in and the RPI/guard gets to keep a decent float together

 

[transmanche]

One thinks they were telling you porkies there. Its easier to give change for a ticket that costs £5.20 with a nominal amount on a PTT then it is for someone who has put a couple of quid in and the RPI/guard gets to keep a decent float together

That's as maybe, but it's happened a number of times over the years - even though I rarely travel from stations with PFs & PTT machines. And if it's happened to me, it probably happens a lot...

 

[Clip]

That's as maybe, but it's happened a number of times over the years - even though I rarely travel from stations with PFs & PTT machines. And if it's happened to me, it probably happens a lot...

Yeah my RPIs in this TOC and the last one I worked for have all said the same when really they tell me they want to preserve change.

 

[jon0844]

Did they? Bloody hell thats just stupid. At least just switch them to card only if you're that worried about it.

If they've not got any ticket stock in the machines, they can't print any tickets full stop.

 

[Clip]

If they've not got any ticket stock in the machines, they can't print any tickets full stop.

There was probably stock in them - its easy to get it to come up with the error. I suspect they just emptied the cash to try and prevent a break in. Still very strange though as, like you say, its a very busy evening for folks going into town.