PacerTrain142
On Moderation
Or maybe a 2+3 seating layout that you get on a lot of commuter trains.
I’d say the 2+3 seating on the ex-merseyrail pacers were my favourite seating layout on a train because all the seats faced the same direction!
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Tyne & Wear Metro and Ferry: Best Ticket.
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I’d say the 2+3 seating on the ex-merseyrail pacers were my favourite seating layout on a train because all the seats faced the same direction!
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ModernRailways
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2+3 seating is terrible for passenger flows.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
Maybe not, but it’s only half an hour from Sunderland to Newcastle. The average passenger’s journey time is under 15 minutes.
Transverse seating bays work when the train’s quiet. They don’t work when it is busy. As much as anything, it’s no fun sitting in the aisle seat and having someone’s crotch at face height for the whole journey.
PacerTrain142
On Moderation
I hope they Preserve at least one. Or better yet, couldn’t they put them on other overhead electrified routes? With the maximum speed of 80 kph (50 mph) they would be ideal for low speed routes with lots of stations. Maybe a Blackpool north to Preston shuttle? Or skipton to Leeds?
What’s the reason they’re replacing them anyway? Is is simply old age? The class 483’s on the Isle of Wight were 80 years old before being taken out of service. I’m sure they could keep them longer.
What’s the reason they’re replacing them anyway? Is is simply old age? The class 483’s on the Isle of Wight were 80 years old before being taken out of service. I’m sure they could keep them longer.
The metrocars are powered by 1500V DC whereas Preston to Blackpool is 25kV AC, so incompatible. They are being replaced as they are life expired and unreliable.
They have major corrosion issues, which were only mildly attended to during the overhaul. The traction packages are worn out, many parts for various systems are almost impossible to come by now, and they are generally just clapped out.
The 483s are a poor comparison, as there was a very small fleet of them drawn from a very large fleet of 38 tube stock that birthed them. They were also used on a much less intensive service pattern than Metro demands, and were built to a much heavier standard to begin with.
The original metrocars have had their time - no one wants them for anything other than scrap metal or a few preservation efforts. Even if there were any routes in the country that would suit them (there are not), no operator in their right mind would take them on.
They were worked hard, provided a good service for much of their life, and it's now time for them to die.
PacerTrain142
On Moderation
So many good trains disappearping from the network - pacers, HST’s, 483’s and now these. Really not interested in boring modern trains like Civities and IET’s. I suspect they’ll be fewer rail enthusiasts in future.
PacerTrain142
On Moderation
Have you come across any 195/331/800 enthusiasts? I havent. The old trains are much more popular as so many go to heritage railways.
MetroCar4058
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Trains are to transport people and these trains no longer function in being able to do this. They aren’t for enthusiasts.
For all of these, read 'good' as 'dangerously beyond life-expired'. I love the old Metro trains but they're long past their best before date, and I'd rather have an actually functioning transport network than something which delights enthusiasts of ancient relics.
PacerTrain142
On Moderation
They function perfectly fine. Pacers for example were only taken out of service becuase they didn’t comply with the new disability regulations. But the trains themselves still worked fine. Never had any issues with reliability whenever I used them. Yes they were a bit worn out but plenty of life still left in them.
“Dangerously beyond life expired”. Seriously? The trains I listed still worked fine when taken out of service and there was nothing dangerous about them. Far more dangerous to drive a car than ride on a pacer.
MetroCar4058
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You clearly know nothing about the T&W Metro and don’t have to rely on the system. I worked there for several years and know these trains have been clapped out and ready to go since 2008. Cracked gearboxes, traction equipment designed in the 60s, obsolete parts and self manufacturing. As others have said, a miracle they are still going and they should go out after a good 40 years of serving the region.
py_megapixel
Established Member
There are two reasons for that.
Firstly, in the grand scheme of things, there aren't that many rail enthusiasts at all, and of those, not all are interested in rolling stock, let alone in a specific class.
Secondly, it generally takes a while for people to grow to like a particular thing. I'd guess that for those who are enormous fans of the original T&W metrocars, it is at least in part because of what they mean to them as an individual. Maybe they were among the first trains they travelled on as a child. Maybe they commuted on them for years and so they feel familiar in an increasingly chaotic and changing world. Maybe they lived somewhere they could hear them passing and enjoy the nostalgia of hearing them again. This is all entirely reasonable, but it doesn't mean they should be kept in service forever.
And I'm sure there will be people in 30 years time who will feel the same about 195s and 331s when they're about to be withdrawn - it just takes time. (The 195s aren't really "the train of anyone's childhood" yet because they've only been around for 4 years).
For the record, I think 195s and 331s are nice trains and I generally enjoy travelling on them more than what they replaced. I'd probably rather have a Stadler FLIRT or similar. I certainly wouldn't rather have something from the 1980s where all that's changed since then is the colour scheme and some bare-minimum accessibility modifications. The 800s are a bit of an outlier as the interior specification is quite low quality, but a version with a nicer interior (such as is found on Deutsche Bahn ICEs of a similar age) would be very nice indeed.
The reason no new trains go to heritage railways is that they are busy in mainline service! Heritage railways can't just pick from serviceable fleets and say "we'll preserve that one please"
Also the network generally seems to have not enough DMUs and too many EMUs at the moment, so it's predominantly EMUs that are being withdrawn. Those are always preserved less because heritage railways don't have the facilities to power them.
ModernRailways
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Wow. I am lost for words. You couldn’t be further from the truth if you tried. The Metrocars are barely functioning.
Pacers were also on there last legs and wouldn’t have lasted much longer.
I want whatever you’re taking, must be pretty strong stuff…
I thought considering there cheap design and how much mileage they do in a day, I thought pacers performed reasonably well and the ex ATN units were fine. The bus seat ones were certainly less desirable that is for sure
The issue with the metrocars is the spare parts which means units are long term out of use and it puts more pressure on the remaining units. There is not alot of room for error when you look at just how many trains are withdrawn/out of use and not a single new train is anywhere near ready for service so wearing them in more and therefore reliability goes down.
bramling
Veteran Member
Yes the Metro has only a very small, albeit dedicated, bunch of followers. It possibly doesn’t help that Nexus has for many years had a rather awkward policy towards taking photographs - which to be fair is barely enforced mainly due to the total scarcity of staff, but it does nonetheless act as something of a turn-off. Also it takes a special type of enthusiast to want to travel around for pleasure on the system due to the massive amounts of anti-social behaviour that happen on it. Which is all something of a shame, as it’s actually quite a decent system underneath all these issues.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
They’re knackered, but they’re not dangerous.
Because they are essentially trams which had a life expectancy of 25-30 years. And they have now been running for over 40 years.
As for preservation, 4001 is going to the Stephenson Museum, which is on the site of the original Metro test track. Beamish were apparently interested too, but don’t know what came of that.
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ModernRailways
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They were falling apart, mainly due to the corrosion of the frame and bodywork. You’d often find there’d be a nice water feature inside the saloon somewhere if it was raining outside
Anyways we’re heading off topic
PacerTrain142
On Moderation
Well it’s been a few years since I last traveled on one but they were fine then. And are still fine now based on YouTube videos I have seen.
Do you mean the northern 142’s with 2+2 high backed seating? (In the picture below). I quite liked those, kind of reminded me of a school bus style interior. I agree the bus seat ones looked very spartan and dated, I also quite liked the merseyrail 3+2 ones (that everyone else seems to hate lol). The 3+2 low backed seating offered better visibility and more seats though.
Strange policy. Wonder what’s the reason behind it? Never noticed any anti-social behaviour on the metro before. I’m not a regular traveller though.
Never thought as the metro trains as trams before, they always seemed like a proper train to me (Although technically they are light rail). They are considerably faster than trams also.
Honestly I never noticed.They were falling apart, mainly due to the corrosion of the frame and bodywork. You’d often find there’d be a nice water feature inside the saloon somewhere if it was raining outside
Anyways we’re heading off topic
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Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
They were initially promoted by Metro-Cammell as SuperTram, and are heavily based on a standard German tram of the time.
As others have said, the railway operates for passengers, not the enthusiast. Some of these classes of trains are finding their way into preservation - if you miss them you can go and see and ride them in such a setting. There will always be enthusiasts - the same conversations were had when the HSTs replaced loco-hauled services, and when diesel replaced steam. The reduction in enthusiasts is largely due to other social trends rather than "old train good, new train bad".
Pacers, the Metrocars and HSTs have (in some cases proven in accidents) substantially worse crash resistance than newer vehicles.
Pacers were only forced out of service due to the accessibility regs, but were not fit for purpose in general. They were loud, draughty and generally uncomfortable. They were also not all that reliable - I used to commute on a route operated by Pacers daily, and there were regular issues. Not a single week went by without a service being terminated/cancelled due to unit failure, the fitters having to try and fix an issue partway through the route, or a unit swap en route being needed. The reason they are still around is that the ROSCOs were happy to sweat their assets, and the government were very specific in that certain previous franchises were to be "no growth" or to not use equipment from certain manufacturers.
The class 483s were absolutely not fine when withdrawn from service - they had already had to cannibalise part of the fleet to keep some units going, and the gradual reduction in service provision and reliability on Island Line since the 90s shows this. Look at the passenger figures for Island Line over the last 15 years; the picture tells a very sad story.
This shows from your comments - if you relied on Metro you'd think very differently, specifically along the lines of the fact that this fleet should have been replaced 10-15 years ago. They ride rough, they are too hot in summer and freezing in winter, they leak whenever it rains, they break down at the slightest problem - they are also slow by modern standards. Regular passengers come first, not those who have the rail enthusiasm or are travelling with a red pen.
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