Typical lack of thinking - late night connections

[HST43257]

Tonight I'm on the 45 mins late 9E19 TPE Liverpool to Newcastle, except we've been informed that the train won't continue beyond York.

Customers are first asked to speak to station staff for onward connections, before being informed that the next train north will be the TPE originally scheduled 2 hours behind this one, and currently still 75 minutes behind it.

Now first of all that's disappointing more than anything, that the trains are so concentrated to make these gaps, especially when people off this train will just miss 2 LNERs towards Newcastle.

Now the other interesting thing is that a northbound Lumo (also First) passes through York station 14 minutes after we arrive. Obviously this isn't currently scheduled to stop at York, nor any intermediate points before Newcastle - but would it be really impossible to call these at the relevant places given that they've got somewhere near 10 minutes performance/pathing allowance (not to mention over 10 mins engineering allowance, and the fact that it's running a few minutes early) before Edinburgh?

Would save these passengers (of which there are probably 20-30) a good 55 minutes, and really be helpful to the customer where the railway seems to lack any interest in their existence at times.

 

[transportphoto]

Now the other interesting thing is that a northbound Lumo (also First) passes through York station 14 minutes after we arrive.

I know this doesn’t alleviate any frustration - it’s worth noting that Transpennine is no longer operated by First, instead operated by the Operator of Last Resort (essentially a subsidiary of the DfT).

 

[Master29]

Now the other interesting thing is that a northbound Lumo (also First) passes through York station 14 minutes after we arrive. Obviously this isn't currently scheduled to stop at York, nor any intermediate points before Newcastle - but would it be really impossible to call these at the relevant places given that they've got somewhere near 10 minutes performance/pathing allowance (not to mention over 10 mins engineering allowance, and the fact that it's running a few minutes early) before Edinburgh?

Lumo trains are nearly always heavily booked out anyway and as transportphoto says TP are no longer part of First group.

 

[The Planner]

Do Lumo have rights to stop at York? Presumably not.

 

[HST43257]

Oh my mistake I didn't realise TPE had already been handed over. Although in that case, there were 2 northbound LNERs (OLR obviously, though I get that each operator is basically its own) 5-15 mins before our train arrived. One of them could've surely been held for max 8-10 mins for these customers, unless I'm missing some major issue?

 

[Bald Rick]

Now the other interesting thing is that a northbound Lumo (also First) passes through York station 14 minutes after we arrive. Obviously this isn't currently scheduled to stop at York, nor any intermediate points before Newcastle - but would it be really impossible to call these at the relevant places given that they've got somewhere near 10 minutes performance/pathing allowance (not to mention over 10 mins engineering allowance, and the fact that it's running a few minutes early) before Edinburgh?

it’s unlikely that Lumo’s Customer Drivers have been trained to call at stations they are not booked to call at.

so, yes, not possible.

It isn’t a “lack of thinking”. Quite the opposite.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Do Lumo have rights to stop at York? Presumably not.

Only in times of severe disruption or for an operational incident etc I believe. The first point of call though would normally be Doncaster, rather than York as that’s where the best overlap with Hull Trains and Hitachi together is. York is really a last last resort.

One of them could've surely been held for max 8-10 mins for these customers, unless I'm missing some major issue?

That’s 8-10 mins of potentially disrupting hundreds more customers and costing even more money. Each minute of any delay costs a fortune. For example if Train A stopping at Station A causes Train B to also depart Station A late then they have to pay for that delay as well. If Train B is then causing a delay to something else at Station B/C and so on that’s also then put back to the operator of Train A. Sometimes one train running late causes delay minutes to over 50 trains. That’s an extreme, but it can happen. The more trains that Train A overlaps with, the more likely it is to cause a delay to another train if Train A is late. Sometimes you also end up with the bizarre thing of a late running train in the complete other end of the country that is nowhere near an operator that was running late as well, but it did delay a company’s train that connects the two areas. That is then placed on that other operator miles away! For example if a Glasgow to Edinburgh service is late and that delayed a Inverness to London service which in turn delays a Peterborough to Brighton service, the delay for the latter goes back to the operator of the Glasgow to Edinburgh service. I should say this only applies if the Inverness to London doesn’t lose further time for an unrelated cause, such as a signal failure. That then goes back to Network Rail.

Unfortunately if your train is late it’s easier to have those that have already been disrupted wait longer, as the company operating that service will already be paying the delay repay for that train and the delay minutes, rather than disrupt more customers who potentially miss their connections and thus cause a delay for another operator to their service; which in this case LNER would still end up paying as they are late, not TPE. That 8-10 minutes wait would likely cause a loss of path in turn delaying the service even further. Ticket Acceptance is usually the easiest solution as it would avoid delay minutes and is normally a fee agreed between the two companies.

I won’t get started on additional/not to call stops etc as that’s a whole different game and in my view isn’t relevant here!

 

[Trainguy34]

Looks like the train 2 Hrs later is running 15 late

 

[Bevan Price]

Looks like the train 2 Hrs later is running 15 late

9M21 now shown about 40 late at Leeds.....
Hope they don't terminate that at York..

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Any nore than 15 mins late and it is likely the newcastle based crew scheduled to work 9E21 from York will refuse to work it as they dont want to work over their rostered hours

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Any nore than 15 mins late and it is likely the newcastle based crew scheduled to work 9E21 from York will refuse to work it as they dont want to work over their rostered hours

Won’t that just make the Newcastle crew even later home if the train has to be cancelled at York?

 

[43066]

it’s unlikely that Lumo’s Customer Drivers have been trained to call at stations they are not booked to call at.

so, yes, not possible.

It isn’t a “lack of thinking”. Quite the opposite.

If you sign a route you should sign the stations, even if not typically calling there. Eg EMR have stopped at St Albans in the recent past to rescue people stranded by a broken 360!

 

[Dr Hoo]

If you sign a route you should sign the stations, even if not typically calling there. Eg EMR have stopped at St Albans in the recent past to rescue people stranded by a broken 360!

Interesting. Does that mean that (say) EMR drivers (and guards) have to refresh calling at wayside stations like Hendon and Mill Hill every six months or whatever to maintain familiarity with braking points, stopping marks and lengths?

 

[43066]

Interesting. Does that mean that (say) EMR drivers (and guards) have to refresh calling at wayside stations like Hendon and Mill Hill every six months or whatever to maintain familiarity with braking points, stopping marks and lengths?

No refreshing, you’re just expected to do it if required! Belper is another example on the EMR network where few intercity services stop, but will occasionally be asked to call additionally at, often to help shift crowds of football fans from Derby.

Things may be different where the station has an avoiding line and is effectively a separate route in its own right - do Lumo sign Darlington, for example?

 

[Dr Hoo]

Thanks for the reply @43066 . I’ve experienced the Belper football calls so see what you mean.

 

[43066]

Thanks for the reply @43066 . I’ve experienced the Belper football calls so see what you mean.

So have I .

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Won’t that just make the Newcastle crew even later home if the train has to be cancelled at York?

No, the newcastle based crew relieve the York based crew at York. LNERs 1N34 departs at 23:07, 9E21 departs 23:11.

 

[sheff1]

it’s unlikely that Lumo’s Customer Drivers have been trained to call at stations they are not booked to call at.

Another thread details how Lumo stopped at Doncaster to eject passengers whose tickets they did not like. So they can certainly stop to inconvenience people.

 

[Eloise]

No refreshing, you’re just expected to do it if required! Belper is another example on the EMR network where few intercity services stop, but will occasionally be asked to call additionally at, often to help shift crowds of football fans from Derby.

Things may be different where the station has an avoiding line and is effectively a separate route in its own right - do Lumo sign Darlington, for example?

Hope Lumo do as they have booked workings through the Darlington platforms in the Down due to conflicting Up arrivals / departures.

 

[Taunton]

There's the usual litany of excuses above for why such helpful things can't be done, and if we wait a bit longer I'm sure others will be able to think of some more.

Nobody seems to have written anything about "think of the passengers". Didn't anyone in the industry nowadays ever read of such concepts in Thomas the Tank Engine? If I recall the stories correctly, it used to be the Driver who would remind the Engines about this approach. How times change.

 

[ModernRailways]

Interesting. Does that mean that (say) EMR drivers (and guards) have to refresh calling at wayside stations like Hendon and Mill Hill every six months or whatever to maintain familiarity with braking points, stopping marks and lengths?

As part of route learning you will sign the full route, that includes all the stations on route, regardless of if you're ever booked to call, same for guards. Drivers will typically know the braking points based on signalling, but if they're unsure of specific stopping mark then it's just a case of defensive driving.
The only time this may differ is if there is an avoiding line, but even then you'll typically learn the station through route for operational reasons.

 

[Horizon22]

Interesting. Does that mean that (say) EMR drivers (and guards) have to refresh calling at wayside stations like Hendon and Mill Hill every six months or whatever to maintain familiarity with braking points, stopping marks and lengths?

Many stations where there are fast and slow lines whereby a metro service runs on the slow lines, stopping markers are still maintained on the slow lines. Also during times of diversion, drivers may have to go over it on a non-zero basis (often during engineering works too).

 

[30907]

Nobody seems to have written anything about "think of the passengers".

The question is - which passengers? The trainload on the KGX-EDB who are already 23 late, or the the rather smaller number on the TPE.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Nobody seems to have written anything about "think of the passengers". Didn't anyone in the industry nowadays ever read of such concepts in Thomas the Tank Engine? If I recall the stories correctly, it used to be the Driver who would remind the Engines about this approach. How times change.

They clearly did think of the passengers in this situation regarding Lumo, not delaying and overcrowding a likely full train heading to Edinburgh or delaying all these people for a small number of people off a regional service.

 

[LAX54]

The question is - which passengers? The trainload on the KGX-EDB who are already 23 late, or the the rather smaller number on the TPE.

Sort of, would you delay 200 passengers for say 15 mins, so that 20 could join that train, thereby risking either further delayed trains at another connecting point, thereby making even more passengers late, or break the connection at the other end, making maybe 50 / 100 miss a connection, and so it goes on.....

 

[Bikeman78]

Many stations where there are fast and slow lines whereby a metro service runs on the slow lines, stopping markers are still maintained on the slow lines. Also during times of diversion, drivers may have to go over it on a non-zero basis (often during engineering works too).

I've been on a few Liverpool Street to Shenfield trains that have weaved across to the fast lines on various sections. One did so many rare crossings it was virtually a BLS tour. Another had a trainee driver and it was dark. Quite a baptism of fire!

 

[The Prisoner]

The railway does not do connections at all well. End of. Was travelling from Manchester to Whitby last month and TPE cancelled a Saltburn service at York leaving us and plenty of others with a four hour wait. Fortunately we weren't in a hurry and sampled some of York's hostelries.

 

[Parallel]

Another thread details how Lumo stopped at Doncaster to eject passengers whose tickets they did not like. So they can certainly stop to inconvenience people.

I believe they previously terminated trains at Doncaster when there were engineering works south of, allowing their customers to transfer to a Hull Trains service that could still run to London (using a diversion).

 

[DarloRich]

Nobody seems to have written anything about "think of the passengers".

But they have - The issue is they havent done so in a manner you approve of! As Dr Spock would say: The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few!

 

[Mcr Warrior]

As Dr Spock would say: The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few!

Reckon that quote is attributed to the fictional character Mr Spock, first portrayed by the actor Leonard Nimoy.

(Dr Spock was the American child care guy).