UK by Rail V Air to Europe

[Runningaround]

With the cost of rail fares and the uncertainty that you can even book a ticket or that they'll even run-on Saturday, how many are choosing to fly to Europe over a trip in the UK?

I've just priced a trip to the North East for early December and before any expenses like food and other visits I won't get much change out of £250 for a League Two match and hotel for one night.

If I look at prices to Berlin I can get a flight for £50 a train for £30 and hotels for 2 nights £80, match in Bundesliga £20
Not far off a similar price for two days
There are cheaper to other countries but i've only done a quick serc

Travel time isn't much different and its two days in Berlin over Hartlepool.

I'd gather if anyone's looking at a weekend away and wants as to be certain they'll get there and back a trip over a weekend in Europe is comparable or can be cheaper than one in the UK. And if you live near an airport a lot less hassle getting there.

 

[DeverseSam]

Even better, put the £250 towards an Interrail, best of both worlds

 

[Runningaround]

Even better, put the £250 towards an Interrail, best of both worlds

For two days I'll? If I can I'll take the route that's spends as little time travelling. Thats why Germany and Holland appeal, if I lived near an airport, I'd travel every other week to them considering it's quicker and more reliable than train travel in the UK.

Tourists on Package holidays did it decades ago, why bother being stuck on a train for hours when you can have a guaranteed seat on a plane.
Stag and Hen parties have been heading to places that are far cheaper to drink and stay for at least 20 odd years,
When top level football in Europe is cheaper than non-league here, I won't be surprised if more will choose to do their weekend trip in Europe.
The state and cost of the travelling on the railway it's making it even more attractive.

 

[DeverseSam]

For two days I'll? If I can I'll take the route that's spends as little time travelling. Thats why Germany and Holland appeal, if I lived near an airport, I'd travel every other week to them considering it's quicker and more reliable than train travel in the UK.

Hmm well I can’t deny the attraction of a £12.99 flight over the £30 Eurostar passholder supplement!

 

[Runningaround]

Hmm well I can’t deny the attraction of a £12.99 flight over the £30 Eurostar passholder supplement!

And as your match ticket for a lot of German clubs entitles you to free local area transport for the day.

 

[zwk500]

For two days I'll? If I can I'll take the route that's spends as little time travelling. Thats why Germany and Holland appeal, if I lived near an airport, I'd travel every other week to them considering it's quicker and more reliable than train travel in the UK.

Tourists on Package holidays did it decades ago, why bother being stuck on a train for hours when you can have a guaranteed seat on a plane.
Stag and Hen parties have been heading to places that are far cheaper to drink and stay for at least 20 odd years,
When top level football in Europe is cheaper than non-league here, I won't be surprised if more will choose to do their weekend trip in Europe.
The state and cost of the travelling on the railway it's making it even more attractive.

It's worth pointing out that in a lot of Germany, The Netherlands, Belgium and France the rail systems are just as prone to strikes and disruption as they are in the UK. Generally in cities and the main IC lines you'll be alright, but get onto the regional lines and things rapidly go downhill.
NS have just had to cut their timetable down significantly, to illustrate how problematic it's been.

 

[Flying Snail]

Travel time isn't much different and its two days in Berlin over Hartlepool.

Even Jeff Stelling would struggle to justify that comparison.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Even Jeff Stelling would struggle to justify that comparison.

Yeah, but Hartlepool has a statute of Andy Capp and Berlin doesn't.

As for travel abroad, travelling light by air is cheaper than travelling by train. And Berlin is generally a cheaper city to stay in, although not to live in.

But flying is not without problems, if a flight gets cancelled you're on your own (happened to my friend flying back from Berlin- cost him €350 for a new flight and a battle to get it back off Ryanair). And I wouldn't be going anywhere near Schiphol.

 

[DanielB]

It's worth pointing out that in a lot of Germany, The Netherlands, Belgium and France the rail systems are just as prone to strikes and disruption as they are in the UK. Generally in cities and the main IC lines you'll be alright, but get onto the regional lines and things rapidly go downhill.
NS have just had to cut their timetable down significantly, to illustrate how problematic it's been.

Strikes are not that common in the Netherlands, many years may pass without them. NS now cut their timetable due to staff shortage, but should the staff situation improve the can reinstate services relatively easily: for 2023 they still have the paths, their just not used. That's why some routes now have a 10/20 interval instead of 15/15.
In the regions the frequency is usually better now, with a few regions having cancelled trains but no downscaled timetable. NS is currently the worst performing operator.

 

[zwk500]

Strikes are not that common in the Netherlands, many years may pass without them. NS now cut their timetable due to staff shortage, but should the staff situation improve the can reinstate services relatively easily: for 2023 they still have the paths, their just not used. That's why some routes now have a 10/20 interval instead of 15/15.
In the regions the frequency is usually better now, with a few regions having cancelled trains but no downscaled timetable. NS is currently the worst performing operator.

I was talking about the current climate only, but thanks for the background info! I've been meaning to make a couple of weekend daytrips around, so it's useful to know the timetable isn't too bad.

 

[The exile]

With the cost of rail fares and the uncertainty that you can even book a ticket or that they'll even run-on Saturday, how many are choosing to fly to Europe over a trip in the UK?

I've just priced a trip to the North East for early December and before any expenses like food and other visits I won't get much change out of £250 for a League Two match and hotel for one night.

If I look at prices to Berlin I can get a flight for £50 a train for £30 and hotels for 2 nights £80, match in Bundesliga £20
Not far off a similar price for two days
There are cheaper to other countries but i've only done a quick serc

Travel time isn't much different and its two days in Berlin over Hartlepool.

I'd gather if anyone's looking at a weekend away and wants as to be certain they'll get there and back a trip over a weekend in Europe is comparable or can be cheaper than one in the UK. And if you live near an airport a lot less hassle getting there.

This is of course assuming that the only flight of the day doesn’t get canned three months before your trip.

 

[riceuten]

Slightly off topic, but one of the things that puts me off UK travel is not just the larcenous train fares, but the costs of hotels in the UK. In July this year we rented an aparthotel room in the Loire Valley for €55 a night. This would probably get you a toiletless and bathroomless single room in Egremont in November with a view of the back alley in the UK.

If you're going away for a week or 10 days (or more), this is a serious consideration as well as the transport costs.

 

[DanielB]

I was talking about the current climate only, but thanks for the background info! I've been meaning to make a couple of weekend daytrips around, so it's useful to know the timetable isn't too bad.

Always good to consider that despite the timetable is scaled down, frequencies used to be very high before. Therefore most routes still have a decent half hourly service. Only some Sprinter services in Brabant are reduced to hourly.
Trains might be quite busy however as the staff shortages also affect shunting and maintenance, resulting in less available stock.

(And there might be a strike at the regional rail operators in the coming months as the unions don't seem to accept the relatively low salary increase offered in the new collective bargaining agreement for the multimodal franchises)

 

[alex397]

A few weeks ago I was deciding between Manchester and Gdańsk. Before researching, I thought I’d probably go to Manchester to save money. However, it worked out over £100 cheaper by going to Poland, so that’s where I went (booked it just a few days before going). That includes the train to Stansted via London, the return Ryanair flight to Gdansk, the 4-star Craft Beer Central Hotel (with its own brewery on site and in a former railway building by Gdańsk station, with a huge room) and cheap local prices.
This was all £100 cheaper than Avanti (and risking unreliability) and a Travelodge in central Manchester.

Sure, Manchester could have been cheaper with different dates, and choosing a hotel outside of the centre maybe, and I was also lucky to get reasonable flight prices at fairly short notice, but I wasn’t expecting the price difference to be quite as drastic between staying in the UK and going to a different country!

While the UK train prices were off putting, the main thing putting me off travelling to Manchester were the hotel prices. That is what I often find in the UK. I saved a lot of money by going to a modern 4-star hotel in Poland rather than a basic Travelodge in Manchester.

 

[Runningaround]

Yeah, but Hartlepool has a statute of Andy Capp and Berlin doesn't.

As for travel abroad, travelling light by air is cheaper than travelling by train. And Berlin is generally a cheaper city to stay in, although not to live in.

But flying is not without problems, if a flight gets cancelled you're on your own (happened to my friend flying back from Berlin- cost him €350 for a new flight and a battle to get it back off Ryanair). And I wouldn't be going anywhere near Schiphol.

But for travelling abroad travel insurance is usually bought most never think about buying it for a UK trip. But whats more likely a train cancelled on a Saturday at short notice or a flight? And as the flight can be booked months in advance and gets cancelled in-between alternatives can be found either by the Airline or yourself.

 

[Runningaround]

This is of course assuming that the only flight of the day doesn’t get canned three months before your trip.

Least that allows time to make amendments. If I book a Premier League game in London I'm hoping up until the Tuesday before the game that last Avanti train that connects to home isn't cancelled, then have to start looking for hotels in London at short notice at the weekend and most clubs have a cutoff point where you can no longer return your tickets for a refund.
All in all, it's less risky to go off to Berlin (most German cities have a good choice over a weekend) and significantly cheaper.

 

[Dougal2345]

Climate change, anyone...? Anyone? Bueller…?

 

[jfollows]

But for travelling abroad travel insurance is usually bought most never think about buying it for a UK trip. But whats more likely a train cancelled on a Saturday at short notice or a flight? And as the flight can be booked months in advance and gets cancelled in-between alternatives can be found either by the Airline or yourself.

Sorry, but that's a bit of a throwaway statement - are you saying that you think that travel insurance is usually bought or that you know that it's usually bought? I've never bought travel insurance for trips to Europe, most recently a week in Greece, however I will have travel insurance for a future trip to Japan and the USA. I don't have travel insurance because I don't think it's worth it, it's a conscious decision. I honestly don't know if the majority of people do or don't buy travel insurance for similar trips.

 

[bspahh]

I always get travel insurance for a trip in Europe. I am happy to self insure for delays or lost luggage, but not for medical evacuation, which is very unlikely, but extremely expensive. I get a policy with a big excess, so its cheap, and unlikely to be used very often, unless something really bad happens.

 

[Runningaround]

Sorry, but that's a bit of a throwaway statement - are you saying that you think that travel insurance is usually bought or that you know that it's usually bought? I've never bought travel insurance for trips to Europe, most recently a week in Greece, however I will have travel insurance for a future trip to Japan and the USA. I don't have travel insurance because I don't think it's worth it, it's a conscious decision. I honestly don't know if the majority of people do or don't buy travel insurance for similar trips.

Always buy travel insurance for trips abroad, never buy it for trips in the UK and almost everyone I know does usually due to possible medical situations but increasingly so for problems with the flight even adding it the trip will still be cheaper than one in the UK. The part of the trip most likely to cause issues is the train journey to the airport in the UK.

 

[Runningaround]

Climate change, anyone...? Anyone? Bueller…?

Perhaps the ''greener'' (Ancient Deisel Train) option would be more attractive if it ran or didn't require a taxi for each passenger as the last one got cancelled. Mind you a RRB for two passengers travelling 70 miles can't be very green.

 

[Runningaround]

It's not only UK football trips British Railways make more difficult its the most unreliable leg of a European trip, if you need a train to get to and from an airport just prey it's not with a service that only releases its timetable only three days in advance of travel.

I can book the flight, the hotel and the train on the European end months in advance, the sticking point what train should I book to get to the airport? Well they will only show them on the Wednesday before you fly on a Saturday and may cancel that the night before, if they are running at all.

 

[30907]

I can book the flight, the hotel and the train on the European end months in advance, the sticking point what train should I book to get to the airport? Well they will only show them on the Wednesday before you fly on a Saturday and may cancel that the night before, if they are running at all.

Answer: you plan your trip based on the published timetable and allow enough leeway for delays and cancellations as well as security queues. And you do the same on any other European railway if you have an absolute deadline such as a flight, ferry or sleeper.
Obviously, this doesn't work with strike timetables, a massive landslip the day before you travel, etc.
If you want an Advance ticket or a reservation you book when bookings open. No-one else can book before that.

 

[185]

There has to be an end to Eurostar's monopoly to break their overpriced stranglehold on the non-air passenger market out of Britain - (ignoring the small number of foot passengers on boats).

Also, if the tunnel is restricted to a limited speed, then surely this should also open up the market to non-highspeed operators, operating longer, loco hauled trains onto conventional lines.

- The current slow, trundly car shuttles creeping out of the sidings should be moved way further back (eg to Westenhanger) on both sides to allow those to get a run up and hit the tunnel at linespeed, not 20mph. Capacity in the tunnel could then also be increased through better signalling, perhaps allowing up to 20 trains an hour through in each direction, not the current pathetic 'five or six if you're lucky'.

This week, my £37 return on Ryanair to somewhere hot and sunny, would domestically only get me a week in Telford (according to Brfares).

 

[zwk500]

There has to be an end to Eurostar's monopoly to break their overpriced stranglehold on the non-air passenger market out of Britain - (ignoring the small number of foot passengers on boats).

There's no prohibition on anybody else running trains, they just have to meet the safety criteria.

Also, if the tunnel is restricted to a limited speed, then surely this should also open up the market to non-highspeed operators, operating longer, loco hauled trains onto conventional lines.

In theory, yes you could if you have a Loco fitted with TVM-430. However which markets would you be serving, and is it enough to fund the service? Bear in mind the safety requirements to fulfill.

- The current slow, trundly car shuttles creeping out of the sidings should be moved way further back (eg to Westenhanger) on both sides to allow those to get a run up and hit the tunnel at linespeed, not 20mph. Capacity in the tunnel could then also be increased through better signalling, perhaps allowing up to 20 trains an hour through in each direction, not the current pathetic 'five or six if you're lucky'.

However then they'd be in the way of the Eurostars for longer. By getting them off at the first opportunity the Eurostars can get back up to full linespeed again quickly.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Eurotunnel's shuttles are 140km/h, Eurostars run at 160km/h on ET infrastructure.
There should normally be no drop below that speed on a ES service.
Eurostar, like the airlines, was hollowed out by the pandemic drop in passengers, and have to get back to a viable business.
I would guess they are still on life support from their shareholders, and have to repay debts.
Many air fares have doubled since 2019, and you have less choice of routes and operators.

 

[185]

As suspected, I've just watched a cab video of the car shuttle leaving their spur onto the shared section with Eurostar through the tunnel, and the train is doing about 40mph (67kph) when it joins the shared line - this is why they need a proper 5km run-up before joining the line through the tunnel. That 40mph destroys capacity, even downhill they take considerable time to reach any of those 140kph maximum speeds.

 

[Peterthegreat]

As suspected, I've just watched a cab video of the car shuttle leaving their spur onto the shared section with Eurostar through the tunnel, and the train is doing about 40mph (67kph) when it joins the shared line - this is why they need a proper 5km run-up before joining the line through the tunnel. That 40mph destroys capacity, even downhill they take considerable time to reach any of those 140kph maximum speeds.

1) for most of the time there are no capacity constraints in the tunnel
2) if you started 5km further back how would you load the cars and lorries?

 

[185]

1) for most of the time there are no capacity constraints in the tunnel

Disagree. Only a limited number of Eurostar trains could run, with the vehicle shuttles having the lion share of the paths. There are currently about six paltry paths per hour.

2) if you started 5km further back how would you load the cars and lorries?

In the exact same fashion as now but move both the road terminals, yards and loading facilities 5km further back, with parallel slow lines for accelerating / braking, which would join the shared line near the tunnel aperture.

 

[telstarbox]

Got a cost for that work? Which village would you demolish to build it?