UK DOO trains having 30-45 seconds door closing time seems be too excessive

[hkstudent]

It seems that only the UK in the whole Europe would have 30 - 45 seconds door closure time set to driver only operated metro services.

It seems that the time is inherited from guard operation which would take more time (though, Tokyo Metro, even with guard, can complete the procedure with only 10 seconds, as per documentaries).

This seems be excessive and at the end, with early departure have caused a unnecessary long dwell time at the next station (where timetable based on train departing at 00 second) which is waste of time.

There is obviously too much of slack in NR operations for closing early. Why couldn't the door closing time be reduced to 15 seconds, where there would still be 5 seconds to spare, especially on London metro services like SE, SN, to save passengers time?

Even when comparing with London Overground and Elizabeth Line where door closing generally be at 50-10 second and still not having performance issues. TfL seems doing a much better job here.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

It seems that only the UK in the whole Europe would have 30 - 45 seconds door closure time set to driver only operated metro services.

It seems that the time is inherited from guard operation which would take more time (though, Tokyo Metro, even with guard, can complete the procedure with only 10 seconds, as per documentaries).

This seems be excessive and at the end, with early departure have caused a unnecessary long dwell time at the next station (where timetable based on train departing at 00 second) which is waste of time.

There is obviously too much of slack in NR operations for closing early. Why couldn't the door closing time be reduced to 15 seconds, where there would still be 5 seconds to spare, especially on London metro services like SE, SN, to save passengers time?

Even when comparing with London Overground and Elizabeth Line where door closing generally be at 50-10 second and still not having performance issues. TfL seems doing a much better job here.

Or to use France for an example all trains are removed from boards two minutes before departure and often doors shut then to allow for a timely departure. It’s not unique to GB.

 

[hkstudent]

Or to use France for an example all trains are removed from boards two minutes before departure and often doors shut then to allow for a timely departure. It’s not unique to GB.

That’s the case for intercity.
But when mentioning UK equivalent RER or TER, they are displayed till the last second and won’t depart early.
I just had one from Versailles back to Paris, and couple of intra Paris rides, they are in time door closing.

 

[ComUtoR]

I work DOO Metro. I often only allow 15s boarding times.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

That’s the case for intercity.
But when mentioning UK equivalent RER or TER, they are displayed till the last second and won’t depart early.
I just had one from Versailles back to Paris, and couple of intra Paris rides, they are in time door closing.

TER certainly follow the same policy whether it’s at Paris Nord or Lyon or anywhere else.

The intra Paris rides will be Transilien services.

 

[Towers]

It’s always worth pointing out that if you’re doing “traditional” DOO (i.e. without kit that prevents wrong-side releases, ASDO etc etc), drivers are supposed to take their time with it.

Doors pinging the second the wheels stop turning might look impressive to the punters and lead to amazingly quick dwell times, but it’s also very high risk (although very widespread!); that isn’t what’s supposed to happen.

Drivers are instructed to pause for a good few seconds between coming to a stand and releasing the doors, during which they can assess whether they’ve stopped in the correct place and confirm which side the platform is. This also prevents a bad habit of ‘stop and release’ which can lead to opening the doors at red signals etc.

All of this also applies of course to traction where ‘driver open, guard close’ is in operation.

Equally, when departing a station there should be a surprisingly long period of scanning in-cab monitors, where fitted, for obstructions before taking power.

In both instances the time saving over a decent guard who’s on the ball (and not halfway down a coach somewhere doing tickets), isn’t really all that great. Different story if the computer removes all the risk of course, all you need to do is stop and hit the buttons!

 

[The Planner]

Unless you start timetabling zero minute dwells, you cannot timetable less than 30 seconds as the railway works on half minutes.

 

[The exile]

It seems that only the UK in the whole Europe would have 30 - 45 seconds door closure time set to driver only operated metro services.

It seems that the time is inherited from guard operation which would take more time (though, Tokyo Metro, even with guard, can complete the procedure with only 10 seconds, as per documentaries).

This seems be excessive and at the end, with early departure have caused a unnecessary long dwell time at the next station (where timetable based on train departing at 00 second) which is waste of time.

There is obviously too much of slack in NR operations for closing early. Why couldn't the door closing time be reduced to 15 seconds, where there would still be 5 seconds to spare, especially on London metro services like SE, SN, to save passengers time?

Even when comparing with London Overground and Elizabeth Line where door closing generally be at 50-10 second and still not having performance issues. TfL seems doing a much better job here.

That slack can also help recovery from minor delays. Seriously, if a passenger is worrying about saving seconds, they probably need to re-examine their priorities.
Also - are we also unique in running so many intensive Metro-type services on non- dedicated infrastructure with little grade separation etc.

 

[Alpine Rider]

All newer rolling stock has to comply with the latest accessibility requirements which seem likely to result in dwell times extending on many routes as older rolling stock is phased out.

Even at a station where nobody actually boards/alights - the new rules reflect the needs of guide dog dependent travellers. NB these rules apply to all public rail services although a few operators like TFL have made an explicit case and obtained an exemption.

Obviously trains can simply come to a stop at a signal so assistance dogs are trained on the expectation that only once a train actually comes to a halt at a platform will an audible door opening chime sound for several seconds before the doors actually begin to open. Only when those chimes begin is the dog trained to get up and lead its dependent traveller towards an exit on whichever side the chimes are sounding. They then need sufficient time to exit the train - this can be problematic especially on busy metro services and also if there is any significant step down or up from the train to the platform.

There is a broadly similar requirement when it comes to closing doors - which applies if trains are DOO or have a guard. Indeed one of the main grumbles about the new class 484 stock which operate with guards on the Isle of Wight was the door opening/closure times. NB the preceding Class 483 stock had grandfather rights and much shorter platform dwell times.

The regulations mean door closing chimes have to actually sound for a period before doors begin to close. This gives assisted travellers and their guide dog a hurry up warning but still sufficient time to complete boarding before they risk being caught by closing doors.

Be thankful if it does not apply to you, but inherently any one of us could be unfortunate enough to become blind at some stage and suddenly dependent on an assistance dog, hence passengers really need to be considerate to the needs of others.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The slow doors on the D Trains aren't to do with this. It's simply that the door leaves move very slowly unlike other stock.

 

[railfan99]

Isn't one of the keys worldwide in how many doors a loco hauled or railcar set has, and also expected passenger volumes at each stop or terminus? These haven't been mentioned above.

To give an example from my distant city, Metro Trains (suburban) tends to have 20 seconds dwell time allowed at less important stations; perhaps more at major ones. There is sometimes excessive recovery time inserted at the end of the run. These suburban trains have two to three doors per car on each side, not as many as much true "metro" (in your nomenclature, Tube) rollingstock.

I appreciate one poster asked for 'compassion', but timetabling for the tiny percentage of passengers with a guide dog (maybe 1 in every 10,000, with rare exceptions when there was a frequented community centre nearby) - seems risk-averse. If a route is busy, other passengers can assist. Mass transit does a good job in catering for disabled persons these days compared to the widespread lack of 'easy access' measures worldwide 60 years ago. But given passenger volumes on many systems, surely we can't forget hobble the needs of the majority of users who need frequency and as much as realistically possible, speed?

In some southeast Asian cities, and probably South America (have not been to latter for 20 years), there is zero help available for disabled users. Western countries are mostly (thankfully) way ahead.

Why would a rail operator 'sound a chime for several seconds' before doors open?' While it varies, normal procedure elsewhere might be for a brief sound once the driver has released the doors, so if required, passengers can press a button to open if that's the system (i.e. if doors do not automatically open).

In my city, DOO requires the driver to get the ramp from his/her cab or (depending on which model) the leading door of the first car, and return it once the wheelchair passenger has boarded/alighted. Typically, drivers can do all this in 60 seconds, though it depends on the passenger being correctly positioned: most are. Dealing with a wheelchair passenger takes longer than from observation passengers with guide dogs.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Unless you start timetabling zero minute dwells, you cannot timetable less than 30 seconds as the railway works on half minutes.

In theory you could timetable 15 second dwells by alternating half-min and dot values at successive stations, in the same way that 45 second dwells are done by alternating 1-min and half-min?

 

[357]

The slow doors on the D Trains aren't to do with this. It's simply that the door leaves move very slowly unlike other stock.

The reason for that is because they legally do not have door close chimes. If the PA is in use, the door chimes are overridden - as a result they need to close at a speed that is appropriate for no chimes whatsoever.

*This was the case after the LU refurbishment, so could obviously have changed with the more recent refurbishment.

 

[The Planner]

In theory you could timetable 15 second dwells by alternating half-min and dot values at successive stations, in the same way that 45 second dwells are done by alternating 1-min and half-min?

You could, but would you want to?

 

[Bletchleyite]

*This was the case after the LU refurbishment, so could obviously have changed with the more recent refurbishment.

It has. Proper railway spec chimes have been fitted - and the doors have been slowed down further!

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

You could, but would you want to?

Not really no!

 

[357]

It has. Proper railway spec chimes have been fitted - and the doors have been slowed down further!

Oh excellent

 

[12LDA28C]

It seems that only the UK in the whole Europe would have 30 - 45 seconds door closure time set to driver only operated metro services.

Where are you getting this information from? At London terminals it's common practice to commence dispatch 30 seconds prior to departure time but after that it's really up to the driver. If the driver can get away with pressing 'door close' 15 seconds before departure time and still have wheels turning at xx:xx:00 then they will.

I was under the (possibly mistaken) impression that an early departure from a station counts as a part cancellation and if this is correct, a driver would be given a 'please explain' if they departed a minute, or even 30 seconds early and it was reported.

 

[357]

Where are you getting this information from? At London terminals it's common practice to commence dispatch 30 seconds prior to departure time but after that it's really up to the driver. If the driver can get away with pressing 'door close' 15 seconds before departure time and still have wheels turning at xx:xx:00 then they will.

I was under the (possibly mistaken) impression that an early departure from a station counts as a part cancellation and if this is correct, a driver would be given a 'please explain' if they departed a minute, or even 30 seconds early and it was reported.

I've left stations 6-7 minutes early in the past and nothing even got said. iPad had stopped working and the clock in the cab was wrong and I thought I was late.

I know drivers that would regularly run 2-3 minutes early for the last part of the route in order to make a connection onto their "going home train". Nothing ever got said.

Even when doing things properly, there was never a clarification if the 30 seconds before rule was before the published time or the WTT time. Eg if your departure time is published as xx:02 and WTT xx:02:30 - do you close the doors at xx:01:30 or xx:02. I would close the doors the full 60 seconds before the WTT departure and nobody ever said anything.

However I've now moved on and have a guard to worry about these things! I don't even check the time anymore, two on the buzzer, check we have a proceed aspect and away we go!

 

[12LDA28C]

I've left stations 6-7 minutes early in the past and nothing even got said. iPad had stopped working and the clock in the cab was wrong and I thought I was late.

That's pretty shocking. Whatever happened to being issued with a railway watch as part of your equipment?

If a passenger turned up to catch your train and it turned out they missed it because you'd left '6-7 minutes early' I'd certainly expect something to be said.

 

[ComUtoR]

That's pretty shocking. Whatever happened to being issued with a railway watch as part of your equipment?

My record is 10 minutes. I was wearing my railway issued watch at the time.

I'd certainly expect something to be said.

I'm not sure you want to know 'what was said' It certainly isn't suitable for a public friendly forum

 

[357]

That's pretty shocking. Whatever happened to being issued with a railway watch as part of your equipment?

If a passenger turned up to catch your train and it turned out they missed it because you'd left '6-7 minutes early' I'd certainly expect something to be said.

I agree. Every other TOC I've worked for except that one has given me a railway watch. That company didn't give me one for 3 years, and when they did it arrived with a dead battery!

That's the problem. This stuff only gets picked up if someone makes a complaint, and the complaint both gets read/responded to and also doesn't get brushed off.

 

[ComUtoR]

Unless you start timetabling zero minute dwells, you cannot timetable less than 30 seconds as the railway works on half minutes.

I seem to recall or If I remember correctly... You mentioned about moving to 1 minute dwell times as a minimum. I've been watching with baited breath and not seen anything yet. The service I drove today flipped from being +1 to -1 and then (due to "!£"£!"£!£"$!$%$^£$%^$ signalling (love ya guys and gals)) I went +4 then drifted up and down and I think I eventually arrived +5 but even taking in any allowance for pathing (2min bracket time and +1 diamond time) I really couldn't make the time back. Even pushing 15s dwells there was no way I could recover.

Would, in your OPINION, tighter dwells lead to unrealistic timetables ?

PERSONALLY, I want a realistic timetable that reflects on the ground running times and not the total !£$£^%^£% (no offence meant) nonsense that is SRT's and getting time back at Station A but losing it back at Station B and maybe.. a departure/arrival time that reflects RTR and not imaginary timings ?

Com. (cheers, hug's and kisses etc.)

 

[12LDA28C]

I seem to recall or If I remember correctly... You mentioned about moving to 1 minute dwell times as a minimum. I've been watching with baited breath and not seen anything yet. The service I drove today flipped from being +1 to -1 and then (due to "!£"£!"£!£"$!$%$^£$%^$ signalling (love ya guys and gals)) I went +4 then drifted up and down and I think I eventually arrived +5 but even taking in any allowance for pathing (2min bracket time and +1 diamond time) I really couldn't make the time back. Even pushing 15s dwells there was no way I could recover.

Would, in your OPINION, tighter dwells lead to unrealistic timetables ?

PERSONALLY, I want a realistic timetable that reflects on the ground running times and not the total !£$£^%^£% (no offence meant) nonsense that is SRT's and getting time back at Station A but losing it back at Station B and maybe.. a departure/arrival time that reflects RTR and not imaginary timings ?

Com. (cheers, hug's and kisses etc.)

What's the easiest way of increasing punctuality figures? Stick a load of recovery time into a schedule and increase dwell times, simple. This seems to be the direction the railway is heading lately.

 

[357]

I seem to recall or If I remember correctly... You mentioned about moving to 1 minute dwell times as a minimum. I've been watching with baited breath and not seen anything yet. The service I drove today flipped from being +1 to -1 and then (due to "!£"£!"£!£"$!$%$^£$%^$ signalling (love ya guys and gals)) I went +4 then drifted up and down and I think I eventually arrived +5 but even taking in any allowance for pathing (2min bracket time and +1 diamond time) I really couldn't make the time back. Even pushing 15s dwells there was no way I could recover.

Would, in your OPINION, tighter dwells lead to unrealistic timetables ?

PERSONALLY, I want a realistic timetable that reflects on the ground running times and not the total !£$£^%^£% (no offence meant) nonsense that is SRT's and getting time back at Station A but losing it back at Station B and maybe.. a departure/arrival time that reflects RTR and not imaginary timings ?

Com. (cheers, hug's and kisses etc.)

What's the easiest way of increasing punctuality figures? Stick a load of recovery time into a schedule and increase dwell times, simple. This seems to be the direction the railway is heading lately.

I'd rather use a service advertised as an hour and five minutes, knowing that it makes it in that time 90% of the time (but sometimes in an hour) rather than a service advertised as taking an hour but 90% of the time arriving five minutes late.

 

[Shotton]

One thing that hasn't been bought up, is a flag I've seen in American timetables, "This train calls primarily to drop off passengers, and may depart up to X minutes earlier than advertised departure time."

This could be used for trains departing major cities at rush hour, allowing for timetabled one minute dwells, and an advertised arrival time that would almost always be met (but often beaten).

Edit: This would also work for late night services - especially those that can be altered by regular engineering works - to avoid them having to excessively dwell en-route but still allowing them to make open (ie, not drop off only) calls that may be useful for people, with the caveat they need to arrive early to guarantee boarding the service.

 

[ComUtoR]

What's the easiest way of increasing punctuality figures? Stick a load of recovery time into a schedule and increase dwell times, simple. This seems to be the direction the railway is heading lately.

I'd rather use a service advertised as an hour and five minutes, knowing that it makes it in that time 90% of the time (but sometimes in an hour) rather than a service advertised as taking an hour but 90% of the time arriving five minutes late.

For me, this isnt about massaging figures but telling passenger the realistic times of each service. Artificially cutting dwells or manipulating RTR or (as previous PPM) doesn't help anyone. Telling me, as a passenger, what my times are at each station, allows me to plan a realistic journey from A-B.

Giving me a 15s Dwell in the peak is just asking for trouble and again; helps nobody. Giving me 1m all day every day doesn't help journey times but does give the passenger a reasonable expectation of boarding times (accessible/PRM/ye olde pram etc.) and allows flexibility and compensates for real time running. RTR shouldn't be about timetable Vs delay. The first 'R' should be for 'Reality'

 

[12LDA28C]

One thing that hasn't been bought up, is a flag I've seen in American timetables, "This train calls primarily to drop off passengers, and may depart up to X minutes earlier than advertised departure time."

This could be used for trains departing major cities at rush hour, allowing for timetabled one minute dwells, and an advertised arrival time that would almost always be met (but often beaten).

Edit: This would also work for late night services - especially those that can be altered by regular engineering works - to avoid them having to excessively dwell en-route but still allowing them to make open (ie, not drop off only) calls that may be useful for people, with the caveat they need to arrive early to guarantee boarding the service.

We have, or certainly have had in the past, stops advertised as Pick-up only or Set-down only which would appear to be a similar thing. If you turn up intending to board a train advertised as Set-down only you can hardly complain when it's left early.

 

[The Planner]

I seem to recall or If I remember correctly... You mentioned about moving to 1 minute dwell times as a minimum. I've been watching with baited breath and not seen anything yet. The service I drove today flipped from being +1 to -1 and then (due to "!£"£!"£!£"$!$%$^£$%^$ signalling (love ya guys and gals)) I went +4 then drifted up and down and I think I eventually arrived +5 but even taking in any allowance for pathing (2min bracket time and +1 diamond time) I really couldn't make the time back. Even pushing 15s dwells there was no way I could recover.

Would, in your OPINION, tighter dwells lead to unrealistic timetables ?

PERSONALLY, I want a realistic timetable that reflects on the ground running times and not the total !£$£^%^£% (no offence meant) nonsense that is SRT's and getting time back at Station A but losing it back at Station B and maybe.. a departure/arrival time that reflects RTR and not imaginary timings ?

Com. (cheers, hug's and kisses etc.)

Dwells are the majority cause to creeping delays now. I would never advocate 15 seconds. Im not a fan of 45 due to the way we have to deal with them in the timetable either. Professional driving has caused previous attainable SRTs to be short, however changing them without breaking something is a difficult task.

 

[Shotton]

We have, or certainly have had in the past, stops advertised as Pick-up only or Set-down only which would appear to be a similar thing. If you turn up intending to board a train advertised as Set-down only you can hardly complain when it's left early.

I am aware of this, afaik in lots of cases you would not be allowed to board at all (regardless of being there when the train arrives), and having this new flag would allow for trains to make calls which may be useful for some people, without sacrificing the opportunity to run ahead of schedule.