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UK rail capacity: how much extra can we get out of it?

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SallyCanWait

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Hello

I was just thinking about how we are rightly being told that we should be making greener choices when it comes to travel if we can. But I also had a second thought if there is the capacity to cover extra people using the rail networks?

I cannot see how the railway can create more space on trains (there is only so long you can make a train), make more rails for trains to travel on and more space at station's to take on any extra people/trains

Could anyone out there make an educated guess on how much more capacity we could squeeze out (10% extra maybe?)of the UK rail network with the right planning?

Hope it has made sense


SallyCanWait
 
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BRX

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It's different in different parts of the network and at different times of day.

It's the reason for building HS2.

You need to be a bit more specific with your question - are we to assume nothing changes, and if not, what's within the scope of what we can consider doing to improve capacity.
 
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The way things are going the railway will need less capacity as it does everything it can to put people off. The car industry must rub it's hands with glee reading the many threads on here such as: Northern, TPE, Scotrail, SWR in chaos, GC making people wait 3 hours, TfW running 150s from Manchester to Cardiff, serious overcrowding on XC, to name just a few issues. Not to mention moans about uncomfortable seats, poor catering, complicated tickets. Not a great advert is it. Living in SWR land I'm afraid it is a case of driving and using the bus more here.
 

SallyCanWait

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It's different in different parts of the network and at different times of day.

It's the reason for building HS2.

You need to be a bit more specific with your question - are we to assume nothing changes, and if not, what's within the scope of what we can consider doing to improve capacity.
If the improvement work being carried out at stations/signals/new trains was to carry on at the same speed as it is at the minute, how much more people could the rail handle bearing in mind the cramped conditions there are in peak times

The second question was with careful planning and real investments made that look towards a greener future, how much ‘extra’ capacity could the rail network achieve?

Maybe the answer is for people to be more flexible with their hours/days they work instead of working Mon-Fri 9-5?
 

SallyCanWait

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I also live in the SWR area and had to deal with Southern and their strikes. Could this be solved by the trains going into public hands where there are no shareholders wanting more from each £ spent? It seems to me that the private companies are squeezing every little penny out of the railway then will probably drop it back off at the doorstep of the tax payer when it becomes none profitable

I’m sure Im preaching to the converted
 

a_c_skinner

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For the metropolis the original premise is correct, more capacity would be difficult and costly. For large parts of the North it would be easier and cheaper as there is scope for longer and more frequent trains with more modest changes in platforms and signalling.
 

bobbyrail

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I also live in the SWR area and had to deal with Southern and their strikes. Could this be solved by the trains going into public hands where there are no shareholders wanting more from each £ spent? It seems to me that the private companies are squeezing every little penny out of the railway then will probably drop it back off at the doorstep of the tax payer when it becomes none profitable

I’m sure Im preaching to the converted

I am pretty sure that the percentage of profit and therefore shareholder dividend a TOC can make has a ceiling within the franchise agreement.
 
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RichT54

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I also live in the SWR area and had to deal with Southern and their strikes. Could this be solved by the trains going into public hands where there are no shareholders wanting more from each £ spent? It seems to me that the private companies are squeezing every little penny out of the railway then will probably drop it back off at the doorstep of the tax payer when it becomes none profitable

I’m sure Im preaching to the converted

Which public hands would you trust to run the railway? Surely not the DfT?
 

SallyCanWait

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I am pretty sure that the amount of profit and therefore shareholder dividend a TOC can make has a ceiling within the franchise agreement.

I don’t know the finer details of the tendering process, but I could only assume according to the capitalism model, that as a shareholder you would always aim for a strong return on any money you have invested? Otherwise the risk and reward strategy that you take when investing in a company is not worth doing. You might as well put it into a savings account which I know is low interest but it is ‘safe’ return

Unless I’m being naive with investments and that a company can offer a flat rate of return?
 

ComUtoR

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I cannot see how the railway can create more space on trains (there is only so long you can make a train), make more rails for trains to travel on and more space at station's to take on any extra people/trains

Evening and happy christmas.


You can create more space on trains in a few ways. One of which is through the introduction of new rolling stock. Older trains are indeed limited in their capacity and in design. New rolling stock, such as a 700 has no gangways so extra space is generated from having a full walkthrough train. Seats are also placed with capacity in mind and you can lose a little leg room and trim the seating design so that you can gain a few more rows of seats. They also design in more standing room and make better use of the space in doorways etc. They also have less onboard cupboards etc so you can also gain space by designing where you need to have onboard electrics, cupboards, and various operational bits and bobs. All that creates more space. You can have more capacity in an 8 car than a 10 due to train design.

You also have a gain in capacity where you can design 'longer trains' You are right in that there is only so long you can make a train but many services are not running at full capacity. My TOC runs anything from 2-12 but has a capacity constraint around 8 coaches. However, many services still only run as a 4 or even a 6 car. Potentially capacity could be gained by lengthening some of the services that are still under the maximum platform length. This creates more problems as the more you increase train lengths the more other factors come into play. Again, a new fleet could be used to resolves some of the issues.

Platforms can be lengthened. Again, at my TOC, we had a massive platform lengthening program a few years ago and many platforms were extended.

If you look at London Bridge and the Thameslink Core. You can see where rationalisation of junctions and platform layouts can be used to increase capacity. The Core will be using ATO and that will also increase capacity.

In terms of trains per hour (tph) I believe that there are many services that do not run to maximum capacity so there are gains to be made there too.
 

Metal_gee_man

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The reality is in the correct areas you could allow more Tph if the signalling blocks weren't 4 or 5 miles long, you get better usage if there were more than 1tph between certain towns and cities i.e doubling single track areas, or in the TPE corridor adding a 3rd or 4th line to allow different speed services to co-incide with different stopping patterns.
I don't deny that certain areas have reached capacity and couldn't possibly be improved without huge infrastructure updates and Billions spent upon it.
Just look at the lengths the MTA have had to go to expand capacity at Grand Central Station dig deeper, tunnel under and spend billions.
There are lots of little improvements that could make a huge difference but HS2 is about freeing capacity as well as speed and that's priority no.1 to this Tory Government
 

SallyCanWait

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Which public hands would you trust to run the railway? Surely not the DfT?

Now that’s a good question........

I would have though they would have to be a new governmental branch that could take aspects of capitalism and use it in a public sector way

I know I’m simplifying it in a small paragraph, but I do see there being room for some of the way a private company operates and using it in a public setting.

As much as a private company wants to save money to make the shareholders happy, I can bet the government would cut funding for public transport just as fast when we are short a few quid.

I didn’t know I could be so confused on the direction that we should take to make transport better for everyone, so it can be used to combat the environmental crisis we have and not the few who earn some investments from it
 

yorkie

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If you want to debate potential ideas that could actually boost capacity, then it could be an interesting thread.

The most obvious thing where I am is to lengthen trains, though that's only applicable on some lines and it doesn't easily apply on (say) SWR where trains are often as long as they practicably can be.

But if it's just another nationalisation thread, then I can't see anything being posted that hasn't already been; see
https://www.google.com/search?safe=active&q=nationalise+railways+site:www.railforums.co.uk for previous discussions.
 

Bletchleyite

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I would suggest the best way to eke out capacity would be an ongoing project to extend platform lengths and purchase rolling stock to allow trains of at least 200m to operate everywhere at most times of day. We have an obsession in the UK with short trains and it is the main problem with capacity once you get outside London commuter services.
 

SallyCanWait

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yorkie

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I was Definitely debating on how much capacity we can claw out of the system going at the rate we are now with green travel in mind

SallyCanWait
Probably best not to focus on nationalisation then; have you read any of the existing threads on the subject? If not, there is sufficient reading material to keep you busy for hours!
 

GRALISTAIR

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1. HS2 will free up loads of capacity.
2. More electrification as the acceleration characteristics improve capacity slightly.
3. Longer platforms and longer trains in certain areas.
4. Selectively put more passing loops in certain places.
5. Selectively improve “ pinch points” e.g. Welwyn viaduct, Piccadilly 15&16 etc.
 

squizzler

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There is a lot of potential to increase throughput using modern traffic management and driver advisory systems. Mostly based on European Train Control System. I would however advise taking with a pinch of salt the claims that it would enhance capacity by 40%.
 

HSTEd

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Abolish multiple working, and procure only full length trains that are the longest they can be for the route they will operate on.
If possible standardise vehicle-to-vehicle interfaces so that vehicles can be swapped between formations as required, no matter who they are built by.

Then stretch as many platforms as possible.
 

BRX

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The question of to what extent changing work patterns means that the peak vs off peak demand can be balanced out further, must be relevant to this question too.
 

6Gman

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If the improvement work being carried out at stations/signals/new trains was to carry on at the same speed as it is at the minute, how much more people could the rail handle bearing in mind the cramped conditions there are in peak times

The second question was with careful planning and real investments made that look towards a greener future, how much ‘extra’ capacity could the rail network achieve?

Maybe the answer is for people to be more flexible with their hours/days they work instead of working Mon-Fri 9-5?

The problem is that the answer will range from very little to an awful lot!

Between (say) Waterloo and Woking there's very little extra that could be squeezed.

Between (say) Manchester and Cardiff you could probably double capacity pretty easily.
 

JonathanH

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I was just thinking about how we are rightly being told that we should be making greener choices when it comes to travel if we can.

Sometimes the greener choice when it comes to travel is simply not to. In due course we will see rationing of travel so people have to consider whether their journey is really necessary.

I also live in the SWR area and had to deal with Southern and their strikes. Could this be solved by the trains going into public hands where there are no shareholders wanting more from each £ spent?

The strikes are all about government policy being implemented, not policy of shareholders who would be happier if money wasn't being lost due to industrial relations issues.
 

AM9

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1. HS2 will free up loads of capacity.
2. More electrification as the acceleration characteristics improve capacity slightly.
3. Longer platforms and longer trains in certain areas.
4. Selectively put more passing loops in certain places.
5. Selectively improve “ pinch points” e.g. Welwyn viaduct, Piccadilly 15&16 etc.
I would add to that list the rationalisation of services to avoid conflicts where possible, and remove working practices that are just waiting to create chaos, e.g. the everywhere to every where timetables through critical pinch-points, for example the Castlefield corridor (which is the subject of a separate thread) is congested with services that need to be rationalised to avoid queueing short trains in platforms. Added to the changing of drivers in the corridor exacerbates the problem. There is a better example of how to manage such a high-density city-centre core, which is the Thameslink model where every train passing through the core has the same characteristics, and stops at the same stations. Trains are ordered into the core at the major stations near the entrances, e.g. London Bridge, Elephant and Castle, West Hampstead and Finsbury Park.
 

The Ham

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The question of to what extent changing work patterns means that the peak vs off peak demand can be balanced out further, must be relevant to this question too.

Only so far, if you look at places like Waterloo trains arriving/departing can be busy (i.e. with passengers standing) for much of the day (even though few services are shorter than 6 coaches long), with even late night services being fairly busy (i.e. don't think about getting much more than 2 seats to yourself on most services).

Even with the building of Crossrail 2 (which would move a lot of metro services away from Waterloo and create 6tph for longer distance services (i.e. beyond Woking), the extra capacity would likely be used up fairly quickly.

The one thing which is noticeable is the drop in demand in a Friday morning. This is clearly due to short weeks (be that reduced hours or compressed hours), however even this only had limited benefits. Even assuming this happens at other times of the week, it isn't making that much of a difference to the available capacity.
 

Killingworth

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It's interesting to note the trend in rail passenger numbers. From 1950 until 1961 they were fairly static at a little over 1,000 million journeys per annum. That was on a network of Victorian infrastructure still powered by a lot of coal. There was a lot more freight using all the tracks, many of which were primarily or only used for that purpose. Journey times weren't very quick except on a few main lines.

By 1982, the lowest point, passenger numbers had collapsed and rail looked to be dying as numbers had fallen to a little over 600 million annual journeys. Rearguard attitudes prevailed. Decisions made at that times led to closures of branch lines and the simplification of layouts to cope with the perceived future demand. Reduced track capacity led to sales of railway land.

Brilliant. Car ownership continued to rise and an increasingly university educated population got used to commuting much longer distances.

Surprise, surprise, railways didn't die! By 2003 passenger numbers had recovered, against most predictions of the early 1980 period, and cracked the 1,000 million once again. Latest figures show steady growth and 1,800 million journeys should be achieved soon.

However, the upward trend has slowed down, and that's our problem. The big numbers are being carried in the London commuting belt and mainlines to London. Then commuting in and around a relatively small area to and between our crowded big cities. Even here the percentage of total journeys made by rail is relatively small.

An increase in rail passenger numbers of about 10% to 2,000 million per annum is possible by 2025 on the present network with more carriages and the modest infrastucture work currently under way. That needs platform 15/16 type schemes completing soon too.

To make significant further progress we'll need to think a lot bigger. HS2 is small scale to what will be needed to get more onto rails. Crossrail illustrates the mind boggling costs and time it will take.

However this crowded island can only move forward with hugely expensive new underground lines beneath the populations requiring services. Patching up all this decaying Victorian brickwork and signalling on tortuously restricted tracks threaded through crowded suburbs won't work to produce an effective mass transit system for the future.

This isn't new thinking. London pioneered a major underground network over 100 years ago (a system that also suffers from 21st century congestion) and the Swiss and Norwegians will tunnel anywhere, both in cities and country.

We need the will and the cash to do it. Is it what the nation wants? How much and how quickly could it be done?

It's over 40 years since the Tyneside Metro constructed the only new urban rail tracks below a British city outside London , and that's quite modest. Tramways have followed but all surface city solutions get congested somewhere.

The car has such a big advantage on flexibility of timing and route. To tempt motorists onto trains a massive increase in station car parking is needed. Where? There's no nearby land. Over and under the tracks?

HS2 won't solve the urban rail needs. We need a very large budget to shift much more traffic onto rails. Rail can take more, but cars take so much space the lobby for more road expenditures is liable to win above rail.
 

BRX

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The car has such a big advantage on flexibility of timing and route. To tempt motorists onto trains a massive increase in station car parking is needed. Where? There's no nearby land. Over and under the tracks?

HS2 won't solve the urban rail needs. We need a very large budget to shift much more traffic onto rails. Rail can take more, but cars take so much space the lobby for more road expenditures is liable to win above rail.
Probably better to try and aim for a public transport system with greater capacity and coverage - and rail a part of that - than to look at rail in isolation. To me, if stations are surrounded by enormous car parks it's indicative of a broken wider system. Especially in urban areas it shouldn't be necessary for people to drive to the station - there should be buses and other transport modes facilitated.
 

The Ham

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Probably better to try and aim for a public transport system with greater capacity and coverage - and rail a part of that - than to look at rail in isolation. To me, if stations are surrounded by enormous car parks it's indicative of a broken wider system. Especially in urban areas it shouldn't be necessary for people to drive to the station - there should be buses and other transport modes facilitated.

As someone who hasn't used a car for day to day travel for work purposes for a number of years it was certainly nice walking this morning through where I lived when there was a drop in traffic of at least 90% over a typical weekday.

In fact it for me thinking that probably a very large percentage of the traffic was through traffic and it would be interesting to see what would happen to traffic volumes if there was a road closure or two to limit the majority of through traffic.

Now whilst for many places it wouldn't work I'd have thought that there's got to be a lot of places where if the local public transport was good and roads weren't cheap/easy to use for private motor vehicles that there would then be a significant drop in car use.
 

SallyCanWait

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I wonder if the idea of shutting non major roads off to cars and only letting only buses through during certain times in average towns would be welcomed by the general population.

This would mean that buses/trains would have to be more affordable to use, all have certain extras like USB charging ports and be reliable.
Looking from the outside it looks that although emissions standards (on buses, but maybe diesel trains as well?) have improved on the surface of it (e.g. from the exhaust), the quality of the build and parts to maintain a vehicle that is E6 compliant seem to have dropped which causes poor reliability which in turn causes possible users to turn away by some bad journeys made by either train or bus
 
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