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"UK rail groups must do more to win over passengers, says watchdog"

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stut

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Often, the point about information is that the means to distribute it is there, but the raw data being fed into it is not. I do understand that there may be reasons why information is only available at short notice when severe delays cause unpredictable flows of trains, or where all hands are needed on deck, but it should be possible to communicate this at least. It's incredibly frustrating to make a (sometimes quite lengthy) journey to a station when the 'live departure boards' are showing as on time, only to find there hasn't been a single movement through the station for a couple of hours (and no chance of there being one). It's even more frustrating when you find out that this information was indeed communicated via one of the media (e.g. Twitter) but not the others.

Information is also often lost among the dross of pre-recorded safety announcements. Annoyingly, I suspect these are actually effective on a number of people, while some legal times and laws insist on them. So there's likely little can be done about them, even though many rather resent feeling patronised by them.

I'm slightly sceptical about passing on the blame to its source - this may be worthwhile politically, but from a customer point of view, it really doesn't help. If I get a battered Amazon parcel delivered by the execrable Yodel, I expect Amazon to sort it out - that's who I've bought the product from, and they've opted to use Yodel as part of their supply chain. I appreciate it's different when a company has no choice in its suppliers, but you still expect the service provider to take up any grievances on your part.

Fares are another bone of contention. The rail industry keeps telling us it wants to sell us more and more advance-purchase, inflexible tickets, and spins it that it's because they're so popular. Well yes, because they're the affordable tickets. People want flexibility, and they want it to be affordable.

And finally, there is the attitude towards revenue protection in some parts of the railway. Yes, I know people try it on all the time, are hostile towards guards, conductors and RPIs, and this should be properly dealt with. But for every consummate professional, there is a hired hand who knows far less, but will insist he's right. There are byzantine rules on some tickets with little leeway if you're caught out (and it can feel like a trap). There is a lack of clarity on what happens with Advance tickets when you're delayed. There's this dogged insistence that it's not a 'fine', it's a 'penalty fare', which just looks like a euphemism.

Barriers are an interesting one. They do help keep a station a much more civilised place, but the quality of assistance there varies. At long-distance stations, can people help you (or particularly elderly/disabled) passengers through with luggage? Can you accompany an elderly relative through to the platform easily? Can you use toilet/cafe facilities when you're meeting/leaving someone at the station? Do the staff know the tickets well, or do they have an attitude of 'barrier says no'? If you do have problems, do you get timely assistance so you're not overly delayed? Has the introduction of barriers meant you now have a ridiculously roundabout route to the bus stop or car park? It's very, very variable.

Another example is railcards. Forget a railcard, and your tickets are worthless. And yet you filled in a form with multiple details to get the railcard, so presumably they're stored somewhere (they're certainly capable of sending you out all sorts of junk mail). Surely it would be quite simple to prove, after the event, that a customer had a valid railcard at the time of travel, and to issue a refundable excess/fine/whatever? But no.

I love rail travel, I'm lucky to be able to commute on a comfortable and reasonably reliable rail service (I would hate to have to drive to work), but... There are aspects that are so user-unfriendly and are at least superficially solvable.
 
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LateThanNever

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First post to mention Network Rail, but they are the major cause of delays. 80% of delay minutes are down to Network Rail some months on my patch, but it's "Another crap service by First Late Western"!

But doesn't make the railway journey seem any better if all they say is "Another crap service by Network Rail"!!

This is just another stupidity of the fragmented system. And if the Association of Train Operators keep telling us how franchising has increased passenger journeys so successfully then the operators have to take the rap as that's the system they tell us is the very reason for this great success. To do otherwise would expose the weakness of their argument!
 

bb21

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  • For helpfulness of station staff, FCC are at 47% which is the second-lowest (Hull Trains are below them).

I would like to know who those mysterious Hull Trains station staff are.
 

Tetchytyke

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Does anyone understand what Mr Sidebottom is trying to say here, and if so, what the remedies might be? Does he want a chat with the driver each day so the transaction is less 'faceless'?

I drop 20% of my take home pay on my season ticket, as dear as damnit. I don't expect flowers and chocolates every Monday morning, but I do expect the TOCs to at least recognise just how much money it costs.

Passengers pay a bloody fortune for season tickets and, by and large, they're treated with as a nuisance.

I'd also expect my train to work to not have the same grimy threadbare moquette that it was built with in 1989, but that's a whole different argument.

Also, as I'm sure he well knows, season tickets are not expensive.

You can't compare to Anytime tickets because, as London Midland claimed on Twitter, season tickets are priced to take into account periods during which they can't be used.

https://twitter.com/LondonMidland/status/497417203034370049

Season tickets in London and the south east are horrifically expensive.
 

Rapidash

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Not sure why FGW are getting such a pounding in the ratings - Reading commuters possibly? Other than the rapidly deteriorating Pacers, which they have not much control over, they don't do anything to annoy me that often. The increase in services has been pretty good, which I hope they manage to continue.

Only thing they've done recently thats miffed me is get rid of the 2230 service out of EXC on a saturday. No work nights out for me anymore :(
 

VisualAcid

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Not sure why FGW are getting such a pounding in the ratings - Reading commuters possibly? Other than the rapidly deteriorating Pacers, which they have not much control over, they don't do anything to annoy me that often. The increase in services has been pretty good, which I hope they manage to continue.

Only thing they've done recently thats miffed me is get rid of the 2230 service out of EXC on a saturday. No work nights out for me anymore :(

FGW regularly get a tough deal when there's a signal failure or a fatality between Reading and London, which seems to be on an almost weekly basis. Having 20% of your working week ruined that often will reflect badly on FGW despite it rarely being their fault.
 

hassaanhc

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Over 2,500 sounds bad, but it's 0.3% of services - suddenly it doesn't seem so bad. BUT, those 0.3% will have stuck in a lot of people's memories - they'll have seen a lot of tweets, they'll probably be remembered longer than most of the 99.7%.

But then, we enthusiasts are guilty of this too - the majority of 442 journeys take place without the unit catching fire, but whenever one does we'll see a thread titled "ANOTHER 442 goes up in smoke"!

As for announcements, would it help passengers to know that the reason they are stuck in a cutting is because of a broken down train ahead? Does that give them a better impression of the railway than saying nothing? This could lead to seeing TOCs blaming FOCs/ other TOCs, which creates a disparate railway.
It is true that bad experiences are remembered more than good experiences. I remember the time when I didn’t get a seat at all from Hammersmith>Hounslow East on the Piccadilly Line more than the several times that I did get a seat at some point :oops:. And I recall someone on here having a dislike of 442s after they ended up stuck in a tunnel on one broken down for 2 hours :P.


Whilst communication is no bad thing I can't help wondering if some of that communication could be usefully turned into education so that passengers better understand some of the issues the railway as a whole face. Most people blame TOCs and fail to appreciate that actually some of the problems are down to Network Rail and even government policy. The railways need to be more open about the issues and how they are caused.
First post to mention Network Rail, but they are the major cause of delays. 80% of delay minutes are down to Network Rail some months on my patch, but it's "Another crap service by First Late Western"!
Surely it's 'Worst Late Western'? :D

But you are correct, of course. The worst delay I've ever experienced on FGW was a signal failure at Swindon. In fairness, this may have been caused by thieves or vandals, but the train sat for a few hours waiting to be allowed to proceed.

The TM was marvellous, went through the train sorting out onward travel and made frequent announcements with estimates of when we would be on our way, but when we arrive din London all I could hear was people blaming FGW for being a couple of hours late.

Delays are a fact of life for any form of travel. Passenger perception isn't helped by the fact that rail seems to be scrutinised a lot more than other forms of transport.
FGW regularly get a tough deal when there's a signal failure or a fatality between Reading and London, which seems to be on an almost weekly basis. Having 20% of your working week ruined that often will reflect badly on FGW despite it rarely being their fault.
I'm slightly sceptical about passing on the blame to its source - this may be worthwhile politically, but from a customer point of view, it really doesn't help. If I get a battered Amazon parcel delivered by the execrable Yodel, I expect Amazon to sort it out - that's who I've bought the product from, and they've opted to use Yodel as part of their supply chain. I appreciate it's different when a company has no choice in its suppliers, but you still expect the service provider to take up any grievances on your part.
Not sure why FGW are getting such a pounding in the ratings - Reading commuters possibly? Other than the rapidly deteriorating Pacers, which they have not much control over, they don't do anything to annoy me that often. The increase in services has been pretty good, which I hope they manage to continue.

Only thing they've done recently thats miffed me is get rid of the 2230 service out of EXC on a saturday. No work nights out for me anymore :(
I was thinking about the NR/TOC issue, as it something that annoys me. Stut above has pretty much said a lot of what I was thinking :). Passengers have a negative view of many TOCs from high fares and overcrowded services mainly. FGW get hit because they often suffer delays outside their control, and don’t have enough stock to ensure most Turbo-operated services run with more than a single unit which are usually busy. Many passengers don’t realise or care about who pays for what and what the TOC can and can’t do, they just resent having to stand and being late with the high fares. I don’t have problems with FGW, nor SWT which are also hated, and passenger grievances are often understandable, but it is the unreasonable views/comments/expectations that I hate.
I think some education wouldn’t be a bad idea, especially how easy it is to lose a minute or two without realising, or what the TOC can and can’t do with things like acquiring more trains. The SWT 455s are hated for being hot and stuffy, and SWT get accused of not caring about passengers when they say there are no plans to replace them even though they have the money from the increased fares. Likewise FGW and not enough diesel stock.


I would like to know who those mysterious Hull Trains station staff are.
I was thinking about that :lol:
 

D1009

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Been a bit late into this thread, but I'd like to make the point that passengers on a delayed train probably have nothing else to do than use the various sources of information available to them on the internet. The train manager/guard/conductor, if doing the job properly will be walking down the train talking to people trying to reassure them, and therefore automatically not be in receipt of the latest information available to passengers.

As informed railway users, can't members of this forum be a little more sympathetic to the staff and possibly help them?
 

Hartington

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In effect apologising for a delay due to signal failure is effectively blaming Network Rail without naming and shaming them. I see no reason not to name and shame.

As for helping on train staff, in principle, yes. On the other hand, as a professional would I want some "amateur busybody" getting involved?
 

jon0844

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I really do think a lot of people assume the train operator is responsible for everything, and perhaps that NR only does upgrade work or something.

Just as they'll assume a TOC can go off and procure a load of new trains, or extend platforms etc. Or even that the TOC actually 'owns' the stations and can make all the improvements people want.

Sent from my LG-D855 using Tapatalk
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Apologies if my reasoning is seen as somewhat simplistic, but up here in "Northernland" with its current varied elderly rolling stock of railbuses and normal units, with a new route from Blackburn to Manchester via the Copy Pit line over over the now-reinstated Todmorden Chord that has no rolling stock to run upon it and commuter runs such as Manchester to Bolton and vice-versa being akin to the Black Hole of Calcutta according to postings made, how is it proposed to accommodate all these prospective new passengers into the available rolling stock ?
 

Chrisgr31

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As a commuter on Southern who are apparently one of the worst TOCs I did read the news with a certain amount of interest, and when the local newspaper tweeted a link to their report I did tweet in response that its all garbage.

The real issue is that the TOCs (well especially those running commuter services in to London and possibly other cities) are trying to squeeze a quart in to a pint pot. They are trying to run more services which are longer and carrying more passengers than ever before. The train fleets are working harder with lower downtime etc. The result is that the moment anything goes wrong there is a significant cumulative effect. In the last year they have had to deal with a ridiculously wet winter, and a hot summer (hot summers always seem to make more things break).

I commute on the Uckfield line and I commute in to London Bridge, cant actually remember the last time we got there on time, but we are usally only a minute or two late, but probably once a week we are 10 or more minutes late. However London Bridge is being rebuilt and the capacity is maxxed out so its understandable.

Announcements are an interesting thing, do passengers really want to know we are stationary because we are at a red light? Strangely we can guess that. All I really want to know is how late we are likely to be, and its more important going home as my wife will be waiting at the station.

The other day I heard some guy who had been chatting the whole way up from Eridge complain about one of the conductors because he was making announcements every other minute abut tube network, whether there were delays to Victoria etcand they kept him awake. Ironic really as his rabbitting had kept me awake! However he does have a point one passenger will like the announcements anither will hate them.

What is true though is that passengers who have had a bad trip are far more likely to complete the survey than those who have had a good one, and therefore the surveys will always give a bad impression.

Personally I think Southern to do a good job, and the only time I think they fall down is in times of major disruption, where the response seems to depend who is in the control room. They need to be able to announce instantly what the alternatives are and have their staff able to brief on them. It sounds difficult but is it? The problems will be a line closure and they can have it set in blocks so they know for exampole fatality at Gatwick means they'll be running London to Purley, Three Bridges to the coast buses in between alternative routes via Horsham maybe even East Grinstead and bus from there. If they had some plans proposed they could just get on with it. Instead of which chaos always reigns.
 

Pugwash

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I really do think a lot of people assume the train operator is responsible for everything, and perhaps that NR only does upgrade work or something.

Just as they'll assume a TOC can go off and procure a load of new trains, or extend platforms etc. Or even that the TOC actually 'owns' the stations and can make all the improvements people want.

Sent from my LG-D855 using Tapatalk

Why should the travelling public care who NR are, they just want to get to their destination. They have purchased their ticket from the TOC - it is down to the TOC to provide the services.
 

talldave

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It is true that bad experiences are remembered more than good experiences. I remember the time when I didn’t get a seat at all from Hammersmith>Hounslow East on the Piccadilly Line more than the several times that I did get a seat at some point :oops:. And I recall someone on here having a dislike of 442s after they ended up stuck in a tunnel on one broken down for 2 hours :P.

That's me. And as far as I'm concerned they can't catch fire and burn to a cinder fast enough (whilst empty I hasten to add).

But seriously, the Gatwick Express service is a confusingly branded, poorly rolling stocked, national embarrassment. And worse, when things do go wrong it's the way that the muppets at Southern react that really niggles. All they care about is getting the pieces of their train set back into a location that suits them - without a care in the world for the impact on the customers (after my 2 hours freeze in a tunnel, I was eventually dumped back at Gatwick 3hours after first leaving with no advice or information).

And to put their incompetence into perspective, they don't even know which of their Gatwick Express services an Off-Peak ticket is valid on. Their website is wrong (admittedly the full site is less wrong than it used to be following my complaint, whilst the mobile site is still very wrong) and their Gatwick staff are incorrectly trained.

So, yes, Southern need to work much harder to convince me that they aren't as incompetent as their actions (or lack of them) would have me believe.
 

NSEFAN

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Pugwash said:
Why should the travelling public care who NR are, they just want to get to their destination. They have purchased their ticket from the TOC - it is down to the TOC to provide the services.
What can the TOCs realistically do to get NR to up its game? They can't exactly refuse to pay NR, refuse to run trains or go to another provider. The sole purpose TOCs seem to serve sometimes is as a punchbag for when it all goes wrong.
 

Dave1987

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Why should the travelling public care who NR are, they just want to get to their destination. They have purchased their ticket from the TOC - it is down to the TOC to provide the services.

It's not as if the TOC can change providers if NR is not up to scratch is it. The TOC has no choice but to use NR whereas other companies can change suppliers.
 

talldave

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It's not as if the TOC can change providers if NR is not up to scratch is it. The TOC has no choice but to use NR whereas other companies can change suppliers.

Well that's how my relationship with Southern feels too - I have no choice but to use them despite their inability to get to grips with the basics. What makes things doubly frustrating for me is that when you politely tell them their mistakes and how to fix them, they mostly do nothing or the wrong thing.

I so wish I could take my business elsewhere. I've done that in the case of energy supply and banking, where there are two companies I shall never deal with again as long as I live.
 

EM2

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...when things do go wrong it's the way that the muppets at Southern react that really niggles. All they care about is getting the pieces of their train set back into a location that suits them - without a care in the world for the impact on the customers...
If they don't do that as quickly as possible, then the impact will be for far longer, over a far wider area, affecting a far greater number of people.
 

Dave1987

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What makes things doubly frustrating for me is that when you politely tell them their mistakes and how to fix them, they mostly do nothing or the wrong thing.

Sorry but unless you are in their control room with the bigger picture in front of you I can see why they may not act on your suggestions.
 

talldave

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Sorry but unless you are in their control room with the bigger picture in front of you I can see why they may not act on your suggestions.

I was more referring to ticket, website & station issues. Things they get wrong that should never be wrong in the first place. I mean why did I as a passenger have to be the one to point out out that the new departure boards at Gatwick were wired up out of sequence?; someone must have signed them off? Why after two months are they still unable to correct a ticket error on their website?

It seems that unless you embarrass them on twitter they are lethargic or useless. I don't do twitter so have to rely on email and phone.
 
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