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Ultra Light Rail for Dudley

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GrimsbyPacer

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moggie: Maybe tracks are to be shared but at differing times?
Freight at night maybe??
I think the O-Train in Canada has a similar arrangement.

L&Y Robert: What's wrong with the "it sounds like" statement?
I really try to be good on grammar and would like to know what the problem is?
 
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LewFinnis

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The big problem with extending or re-instating south of Dudley is the condition of the Holly Hall viaduct which needs a fair bit of money spent on it.
 

edwin_m

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moggie: Maybe tracks are to be shared but at differing times?
Freight at night maybe??
I think the O-Train in Canada has a similar arrangement.

L&Y Robert: What's wrong with the "it sounds like" statement?
I really try to be good on grammar and would like to know what the problem is?

"Timesharing" is used on several light rail routes in North America but not in Europe as far as I know. It can be a bit restrictive if freight trains can only access a particular site between about midnight and 0600.

Tram-train rules with signalling and train protection can in theory be applied to ultra light rail vehicles, as the train protection makes collision very unlikely, offsetting the fact that if it did happen it would be much more severe due to the lighter structure of a tram-train compared with a full-spec train.

However train protection is a high-integrity system. Interfacing it to the rather basic technology of a Parry People Mover - and more importantly proving that it is sufficiently reliable and safe - would be a big challenge. And fitting the light rail vehicles with a "proper" railway traction package starts increasing the cost a lot.

Personally I'm entirely comfortable with "sounds like" in the context of your post. It's not strictly grammatical but the meaning is clear for use in a conversational setting such as this forum. I would want it changing if I saw it in a technical report I was reviewing!
 

tbtc

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Build on the relative success of Brum to Wolves.

Metro line 1 actually hasn't been particularly successful

It's hard to find figures from the 1990s, but I've certainly seen claims that the Midland Metro was meant to get around twenty million passengers a year (http://www.britishtramsonline.co.uk/midlandfarewell.html) on the proposed route from Birmingham Snow Hill to Wolverhampton St Georges, but only gets around five million.

Okay, I know we're only meant to talk about the rail based schemes that exceeded their expected passenger numbers, but the "missing" passengers from the West Midlands scheme significantly outnumber the "excess" passengers at Alloa, Ebbw Vale etc!

Looking at the title of this thread, may I ask what the difference is between Ultra Light Rail and the more generally accepted term of Light Rail.

The cynic in me wonders if it's a case of a new sounding proposal sounding exciting and therefore interesting - it's not just another tram (like the under performing Midland Metro), it's not just another Parry People Mover scheme (like the underwhelming Stourbridge), it's got a super new exciting sounding name!

We've got a range of technologies/ systems in the UK (low floor tram, high floor tram, light rail that shares tracks with Network Rail, segregated Parry People Movers, Underground, Overground etc etc) - I'd rather we built any new line based on the kind of thing that works swelter in the country...

...but perish the thought that our blue sky visionaries want to use existing compatible units on this new line!

Believe it when I see it, all that reads to me is that they will get funding for the Innovation centre, not to build the thing.

Sounds typically accurate (and cynical) from yourself!

Look, we all like a trier but after getting on for six years operation on the 10 minute duration run at Stourbridge how many other projects have got off the ground and adopted these PPM transit busses on rail ? None

Agreed.

Given that it's not led to similar schemes elsewhere in the UK, in hindsight it seems a very expensive project for the sake of freeing up one 153!

As for others saying a bus is better. The Stourbridge Town route had 99.97% reliabillity which no bus can match

It's a segregated line less than a mile long that takes three minutes (no intermediate stations, only one train required at any time with one spare) - I can't imagine many services over five minutes late... I think that a bus ought to be pretty reliable too on such a service.

TBH it's a nonsense that this service counts towards LM's overall PPM statistics since twelve services per hour (on a route that the Chuckle Brothers ought to be able to run reliable) allows them to get away with being late on various longer distance routes without attracting so many negative headlines - bet Northern wished they had a route like that!
 

johnnychips

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TBH it's a nonsense that this service counts towards LM's overall PPM statistics since twelve services per hour (on a route that the Chuckle Brothers ought to be able to run reliable) allows them to get away with being late on various longer distance routes without attracting so many negative headlines - bet Northern wished they had a route like that!

Barry at Stourbridge Junction, Paul at the Town: 'To me...to you...'

Oh dear, oh dear...
 
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moggie

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moggie: Maybe tracks are to be shared but at differing times?
Freight at night maybe??
I think the O-Train in Canada has a similar arrangement

Stourbridge Jcn (not just the station but the wider area where the line from Round Oak splits) - intensive LM / Chiltern operation. So how do they propose to get ULR vehicles into the station? Move the Chiltern operation or dig up the recently extended car park?

Of course, the other issue is where are the ULR vehicles to be maintained. OK for a service formed of two small units to sit in a tin shed like the 139's do at the end of their running line, but one assumes more than a few vehicles would be required to operate a proper inter-urban service. Therefore a depot. So, unless each of these ULV schemes has to come with it's own stock maintenance depot (another cost) then shared running to wherever they will be maintained will be needed also, potentially extending the scope of their operation - and the expense of infrastructure alterations.

It's clear, once you start planning for a reasonable size operation, unless it's an entirely self contained operation then you have to stop thinking small, and start considering interoperability with either conventional rail or tram, without constraint on current heavy rail operation to make way. Don't hear any of that discussion going on with these proposals. It's all 'such a great idea' until the realities kick in. By then the money has been wasted on vehicle development and another big idea withers and dies. After all, isn't Stourbridge - Walsall testament to that? How many pie in the sky ideas have been dreamt up?

There's two viable rail systems in the West Mids, just make the case for extending one of them to be part of an integrated network and finance it, in stages if necessary.
 
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Bletchleyite

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It's a segregated line less than a mile long that takes three minutes (no intermediate stations, only one train required at any time with one spare) - I can't imagine many services over five minutes late... I think that a bus ought to be pretty reliable too on such a service.

Agreed - if a bus had dedicated infrastructure it would be just as reliable.

(I don't propose getting rid of the Shuttle - far from it - but it would be far more difficult to argue for adding a new one).

Neil
 

21C101

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The advantage of opening it on the cheap with ultra light rail is that if it is successful and well used it gives you the business case to do it properly

Re the comments about the original Midland Metro. High time it was converted to tram train with through roads (reinstated) at many of the stations so Chiltern can use it to reach the north and reach Wolverhampton Low Level, Shrewsbury, Wrexham, Chester, Helsby, Frodsham, Runcorn and Liverpool Lime St.
 

GrimsbyPacer

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The information I've seen suggests that the line will share an improved depot with the Stourbridge Shuttle and share the same platform at Junction.
A short new line will run from the proposed branch to Stourbridge not on LM foutes.
The stations after Stourbridge Junction are:
Stambermill, Corbett Hospital, Brettell Lane, Brierly Hill South, Brierly Hill North and The Waterfront (near Merry Hill).
Then the future Midland Metro will connect.
And new developments along the line are planned.
 
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The Planner

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So that would require a line around the depot then? Only way it can do it without causing problems.
 

edwin_m

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So that would require a line around the depot then? Only way it can do it without causing problems.

Probably so. Looking at Bing aerial photography it looks like there is space to diverge from the Town branch and go round the western boundary of the depot. However unless the westernmost track to the north of it (which they probably use as a headshunt) could be taken over, it would need a new span on the bridge over Junction Road.
 

WatcherZero

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crop-54cce8b4f1e55-imgID9524288.jpg


Nice little depot.
 
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Is that this one? It looks OK on the photos.

https://ssl.panoramio.com/photo/81608889

Yes - it's called Parkhead Viaduct. As I recall it was originally a timber viaduct built to Brunel gauge as part of the OWW line. This was later encased in the brick structure we see today. The structure has issues with lateral loading (amongst other things), so a significant part of any design proposal was to remove as much dead load as possible from the structure whilst also saddling the arches to strengthen them. I think RailFuture came up with a proposal to have twin track heavy rail over the viaduct and single track light rail (taking advantage of the wide gauge), but the issue was that having two train on the viaduct at the same time was likely to make it collapse.

However, if Metro did get down to Brierley Hill it would have released a big slug of cash from the developer agreement with Merry Hill as this was the only way for them to increase their modal split.
 
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