Depends on the Franchise. GWR aren’t for example, but they basically just have to pay a penalty if there is any First branding if they lose the franchise, to help pay for the rebranding.
-
Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Un-user friendly railway: Wrongly branded trains
- Thread starter bathbuses
- Start date
- Status
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
ThameslinkUser
Member
Not now that they're all 8 cars vice 12!
dk1
Veteran Member
It’s not the end just a swap about. Also with the end of franchises as we knew them, who knows or even cares?
Sealink
Member
- Joined
- 16 Aug 2006
- Messages
- 158
I'm not a fan of ScotRail but giving the franchise one "image" no matter who operates it was a stroke of genius.
The cost of rebranding when a TOC changes must be insanely high.
The cost of rebranding when a TOC changes must be insanely high.
Peter Wilde
Member
Agree the confusions about operators and the words on trains (and platform displays) is confusing, and unfriendly to new/occasional/nervous travellers.
There are two simple steps to make this issue go away:
1. Remove all the operator names and branding;
2. Replace with the words “British Railways”.
If only …..
There are two simple steps to make this issue go away:
1. Remove all the operator names and branding;
2. Replace with the words “British Railways”.
If only …..
Davester50
Member
Yes, they peeled off the small operated by stickers, which left a clean patch!
They do have two images with the InterCity fleet being different though.
I don't get the problem, but then I have no issues asking staff or strangers if this is the correct train I'm boarding.
By British Railways do you mean the Intercity livery, the Regional trains livery, plus other British Railways variation as they sectorised ?
matt_world2004
Established Member
- Joined
- 5 Nov 2014
- Messages
- 4,504
Just before tfl rail launched . There were tfl rail branded class 360s being driven to Heathrow Airport on Heathrow express services and Heathrow connect services. Also there were class 345 tfl rail services going to Reading in peak times. That were actually gwr services. This meant you couldn't use tfl rail only tickets on them like freedom passes
JBuchananGB
Member
I can remember First Capital Connect class 321 on the Greater Anglia Southend line.
Where in the livery does it tell me that the train in front of me is not the 11:30 (for which I have an Advance ticket), and is instead the late-running 11:10?
Unless you are going down the road of route-specific branding (think "Heart of Wessex" 153s, the livery gives you little clue about what the destination of your train is.
I suggest that you look at the departure boards or ask a member of staff.
As it's "British Railways" it'll be the green one with maroon coaches. Or possibly blue with blood & custard coaches. Maybe maroon with chocolate & cream coaches. Or black with a silver stripe...
Last edited:
Purple Train
Established Member
Speaking of Gatwick Express, I remember waiting at Ore for a terminating train to come out of the sidings and take me to Lewes. It was showing as twelve carriages on the destination display, which I thought was unlikely given the length of the platforms along the route, but I was prepared to believe it.
In came the train... and it had four carriages.
Also, yesterday, I was waiting at Paddington to get a friend of mine onto the 1700 to Temple Meads. We turned up 20 minutes before the train was due, and the platform hadn't been announced. It was booked on platform 1, and there was a train in platform 1, but, as there seemed to be disruption, and there were lots of people on it, we weren't sure. After speaking with several members of station staff, including the guard, the displays on the outside of the train kicked into life ten minutes before departure, which confirmed it was the 1700. When I left the station at 1652 to catch an EL service home, the displays on the platform were still showing "preparing" (though the platforms for the 1702 and 1706 had been announced...) - thank goodness platform 1 isn't gated! There is a reason I'm fairly often asked by friends to help them navigate the railway, and it's not because they like me
I suspect navigating the railway would be a lot easier for people if they operated by the rule of "if in doubt, ask a member of staff, if possible the guard", but equally the technology that is allegedly making certain areas of their roles obsolete needs to work properly first.
In came the train... and it had four carriages.
Also, yesterday, I was waiting at Paddington to get a friend of mine onto the 1700 to Temple Meads. We turned up 20 minutes before the train was due, and the platform hadn't been announced. It was booked on platform 1, and there was a train in platform 1, but, as there seemed to be disruption, and there were lots of people on it, we weren't sure. After speaking with several members of station staff, including the guard, the displays on the outside of the train kicked into life ten minutes before departure, which confirmed it was the 1700. When I left the station at 1652 to catch an EL service home, the displays on the platform were still showing "preparing" (though the platforms for the 1702 and 1706 had been announced...) - thank goodness platform 1 isn't gated! There is a reason I'm fairly often asked by friends to help them navigate the railway, and it's not because they like me
I suspect navigating the railway would be a lot easier for people if they operated by the rule of "if in doubt, ask a member of staff, if possible the guard", but equally the technology that is allegedly making certain areas of their roles obsolete needs to work properly first.
I don't believe anyone was claiming it does. The OP started this topic due to branding on the train confusing some customers, as the branding on the unit did not match the station screen and stated operator on their ticket.
I'm sure you can appreciate that this may cause some confusion.
No, but the destination and operator is indicated on tickets, station screens and apps. It may be, understandably, confusing should the train arrive and not be so branded.
Thank you for your thoughts, but as pointed out above and in the OPs comments, the issue is not with locating your train, but the confusion arising when the stated operator and branded operator do not tally. It's not an insurmountable problem, but may create a more stressful user experience or even result in a cautious/unfamiliar customer missing their train - which may come with quite an expensive financial penalty.
It doesn't take much to confuse some passengers. You can have all the right liveries, make a dozen pre-departure announcements (of the sort whinged about on a thread not so long ago) and still have passengers go "what's 'Avanti'?" or "is this not Northern then?"
The solution is to simplify this godforsaken ticketing system and strip out all of the poxy TOC-specific tickets which only exist for operators to circumvent ORCATS.
Back before EMR ran the Barton on Humber service it was:
East Midlands Trains unit
Transpennine Express train crew
Northern timetable and stations
and just to add to the mix a Cross Country community rail partnership.
3 operators for a 2 hourly shuttle service!
East Midlands Trains unit
Transpennine Express train crew
Northern timetable and stations
and just to add to the mix a Cross Country community rail partnership.
3 operators for a 2 hourly shuttle service!
ChiefPlanner
Established Member
But train / rolling stock liveries is such an issue among a select cadre here.
If you’re talking about FGW / GWR it wasn’t a change of franchisee so no possible breach.
Perhaps it's like this. Something new and shiny comes along, a rebrand. It's exciting so you go out changing as much as you can.
After a while it's no longer new and exciting, so you stop being so bothered and just give up bothering to continue what you started or you slow down.
Or someone decrees that the new brand shouldn’t be applied to tired, unrefurbished stock. Then the brakes get put on the refurbishment programme.
Eastern Farmer
Member
After having a look on Google at the 166s with first still on them they don’t seem to have the dynamic lines on them. This to me makes me wonder why they would not just get rid of the first letters too. There is clearly some reason, which none of us on here are likely to ever know but it does make you wonder.
I've dived in late to this one obviously.....
A generic national livery with interchangeable vinal decals to denote the operator should be part of future franchise bids, easier all round, stock doesn't need to be repainted when it moves operator. Win all round?
oliverrhys
New Member
Very good point actually, I know they kept the FGW brandin on the HST's, but they were getting retired soon anyway, so I guess there was no point in repainting them. But yes having the Turbo's still in old branding 8 years later is ridiculous!
They should do what SWR have done with the 455, 458 and 707 fleets, where the old colours are still used but are completely rebranded.
Did they ever have the dynamic lines?
One that used to cause a lot of confusion was when West Yorkshire’s ‘Metro Train’ liveried trains ran in non Metro areas. Such as on the then Scarborough - York - Blackpool services etc.
I often saw passengers on the platforms at Scarborough, Malton, York and Blackpool very confused as to whether the train that had just turned up in ‘Metro’ branding was their 'Scarborough to York train'. Same with the announced ‘Northern Spirit’ train to Blackpool etc.
To make matters worse, once onboard, the displayed maps just highlighted the ‘Metro’ area and there was heavy advertising about ‘Metro tickets’ – but nothing to say normal BR tickets were valid on the trains.
I often saw people standing back on the platforms waiting for their ‘Northen Spirit’ etc train as they though the ‘Metro Train’ wasn’t their service.
Even my late wife thought ‘Metro Train’ was another rail franchise and that normal ‘Northern’ tickets weren’t valid on them.
I often saw passengers on the platforms at Scarborough, Malton, York and Blackpool very confused as to whether the train that had just turned up in ‘Metro’ branding was their 'Scarborough to York train'. Same with the announced ‘Northern Spirit’ train to Blackpool etc.
To make matters worse, once onboard, the displayed maps just highlighted the ‘Metro’ area and there was heavy advertising about ‘Metro tickets’ – but nothing to say normal BR tickets were valid on the trains.
I often saw people standing back on the platforms waiting for their ‘Northen Spirit’ etc train as they though the ‘Metro Train’ wasn’t their service.
Even my late wife thought ‘Metro Train’ was another rail franchise and that normal ‘Northern’ tickets weren’t valid on them.
Even more confusingly, it used to be a Thameslink service before the May timetable change.
A Southern service that used to be a Thameslink service, run using Gatwick Express stock on a service that doesn't stop at Gatwick. Maybe one of the planners had a Bingo card they were trying to complete...
Perhaps not for you as an enthusiast. But to an infrequent traveller, can you not appreciate how and why this has potential to cause confusion?
Endemic within rail is the inability to understand how the industry may be perceived by irregular users or unseasoned customers. I think the OP has explained this sufficiently and it's either disingenuous or just plain ignorant not to recognise and appreciate why there may be some confusion created around branding.
Yes, as a member of staff or well versed enthusiast, its probably a nice quirk when something like this happens. But to a traveller who has been bombarded with posters and announcements telling them their ticket is invalid on the wrong train, anything that doesn't tally between the ticket, the platfrom screen and the physical train that pulls in has the potential to create confusion and anxiety to the observant. This in turn, at best, creates a more stressful and less pleasant user experience. At worst, it means someone misses their train. Even if we strike a centre ground and the customer manages to contact the guard/dispatcher to clarify if this is, infact, the correct train, this is then likely to cause a 30-60 second delay. In any of the above cases, its an industry own goal which could very easily have been avoided - in the GWR case, by simply removing the word "first" from all branding in the 7 years since the re-brand.
At Chester yesterday there was a Northern 150 stabled in one of the bay platforms (not one of the on-hire ones). Despite the fact that the unit was painted in different colours to the TfW one further down the same platform (not to mention that it was shut down and locked up with the lights off) numerous passengers still ran up and tried the door buttons. They had to be called down to the right train by the guard. Some of them were then sent back to platform 7B because they had Merseyrail tickets (so valid on neither the blue, nor the red train, they needed a yellow one).
Few passengers notice the paint pigment.
Few passengers notice the paint pigment.
There's only so much you can help people. But that doesn't mean that sensible things shouldn't be done to reduce confusion. If GWR want separate brands for their IC and regional stuff, they should do it properly. If they want a unified brand, they should also do that properly. If the tickets and screens say 'Great Western Railway' then after several years GWR really should have been able to put some vinyl stickers over the 'First Great Western' label.
Eastern Farmer
Member
I can’t talk for these exact units but a quick Google search shows networkers with dynamic lines so make of that what you will.
- Status