Unattended Bag Procedure

[Essexman]

Recently I was on the DLR when a passenger noticed a child’s rucksack had been left on the train. She alerted the train manager who spoke to control and was advised just to take it to lost property. He didn’t look in the bag which remained with him on the train.

A couple of weeks before I’d found a small bag left on a train at Fenchurch Street. With no staff on the platform I told the member of staff on the gateline. He said that he couldn’t leave the gate and told me to find security. I felt that I’d done my bit in telling a member of staff (as the See it, Say it, Sorted message constantly tells us to do) and after some discussion he agreed that he’d tell someone else.

A few days later I was near Oxford when a tourist left a rucksack on a bus, which was then evacuated along with a number of buildings and roads cordoned off.

The risk from all three instances was probably very low but the responses quite different.

Is it now normal that the railway takes minimal action for what appear to be low risk unattended bags?

I’m not saying that this is wrong – the risk is generally low and if stations were evacuated every time a bag was left behind it would cause much disruption – but it’s not the action that the constant messages leads us to expect.

 

[Fleetmaster]

I’m not saying that this is wrong – the risk is generally low and if stations were evacuated every time a bag was left behind it would cause much disruption – but it’s not the action that the constant messages leads us to expect.

This is the mistake most people (including railway staff) make. The risk is not low. Thr likelihood thst it is a bomb is low, indeed so low as to perhaps be near zero.

But given the nature of the hazard (bomb) and indeed the fact the hazard is not accidental but a deliberate act by a sentient being that can plan and predict, the consequences of not taking appropriate action for that one time that it is a bomb, are near certain to be catastrophic.

Multiple fatalities and even more life changing injuries. This is what makes such things extremely high risk. You have to consider both likelihood and consequences to calculate risk (which guides response).

This is exactly why you would want to see a consistent and effective (and indeed proportionate) response, to absolutely minimize the chance of an ineffective response leading to serious consequences.

Terror fatigue is a thing. So are home made bombs. Things need to be proportionate but effective. This is why we have a Terror Threat Level system for example. It was raised recently. The more militant elements of the IRA have form for blowing up civilians without warning, and crowded areas are their preferred target. Joe Biden might not wish it to be true, but it is.

We clearly need to do better based on your experience. While at the same time not letting terrorists change our way of life (recognizing this is their secondary if not often their primary goal).

 

[The Puddock]

I don’t think it’s a very wise idea for railway staff to post information about security procedures on the internet.

 

[66701GBRF]

I don’t think it’s a very wise idea for railway staff to post information about security procedures on the internet.

Pretty sure the HOT principle is fairly common knowledge.

 

[SynthD]

HOT principle

Hidden. Obviously suspicious. Typical.

fairly common knowledge.

I had never heard of it, though the above comes from this BTP pdf.

 

[Snow1964]

I don’t think it’s a very wise idea for railway staff to post information about security procedures on the internet.

I think the first paragraph of opening post rather undermines that as it makes it obvious that anyone wanting to do something bad should just use a child's rucksack instead of tourist style one because it will be treated differently.

The reality is never going to be able to stop someone completely random, or know what is inside bags on a luggage stack.

But I am sure darker parts of the internet will provide those who want it, information that ideally should not be shared.

 

[zwk500]

I think the first paragraph of opening post rather undermines that as it makes it obvious that anyone wanting to do something bad should just use a child's rucksack instead of tourist style one because it will be treated differently.

Anybody wanting information on how to conduct an attack will not be looking for it on these forums.

 

[Essexman]

I'd never heard of the HOT principle but it seems to be common sense.
See it, Say it, Sort it puts the emphasis on public to report an unattended package.
Presumably the member of staff to whom it is reported has some training in order to assess what action should be taken.
I'm not sure howeverthat as occurred at Fenchurch Street, the member of the public should be told to find another member of staff to report it to.

 

[AlterEgo]

Good application of the HOT principle. Not hidden, not obviously suspicious, and typical of the sort of item you would expect to find unattended.

 

[island]

The HOT protocol is a sensible compromise, as opposed to the French approach of exploding bags of groceries.

 

[Fleetmaster]

It's deeply disturbing to think the police don't realize a terrorist would know *not* to hide a bag you are deliberately intending to be seen and viewed by the general public and unprepared railway staff as just another unattended bag. Which is why I am very skeptical this is what happens.

I know memories are short, but the terrorist threat these days is not simply random inexperienced Islamist extremists coached from afar, if at all. It's hardened Irish Republicans with decades of experience to call on.

 

[trainophile]

I've occasionally heard announcements (Manchester Piccadilly springs to mind) about "whoever has left a bag/case/rucksack unattended on platform 1 should return to it immediately otherwise it will be removed and may be destroyed". That seems a fair compromise.

 

[Mathew S]

Worth adding that a difference in response at any given location and on any given day may have nothing to do with the nature of the unattended bag, and everything to do with other information which, for obvious reasons, the public wouldn't be aware of.

 

[45517]

In the times before ticket barriers were fitted, I boarded an evening Leeds train at Kings X, about 15 mins before departure, went to my seat, then decided to nip back onto the concourse to get a sandwich.
Going back to the train, I could see all the passengers disembarking. BTP were there in numbers, and stopped me at the platform gate.
They said the train was being evacuated, so I said 'can I go and get my bag?'.
After a few words into his radio, he asked me which coach and seat, then asked 'Can you describe your bag ?'. I did, and saw him smile.
Feeling shamed and embarrassed, I was escorted to the coach and identified my bag. The 'All Clear' was given, BTP were satisfied and quite relieved, everyone re-boarded and we left on time.
The ticket inspector gave me a knowing grin. Not all my fellow passengers saw the funny side of it, however. I never did find out who reported the bag.

 

[fandroid]

In the times before ticket barriers were fitted, I boarded an evening Leeds train at Kings X, about 15 mins before departure, went to my seat, then decided to nip back onto the concourse to get a sandwich.
Going back to the train, I could see all the passengers disembarking. BTP were there in numbers, and stopped me at the platform gate.
They said the train was being evacuated, so I said 'can I go and get my bag?'.
After a few words into his radio, he asked me which coach and seat, then asked 'Can you describe your bag ?'. I did, and saw him smile.
Feeling shamed and embarrassed, I was escorted to the coach and identified my bag. The 'All Clear' was given, BTP were satisfied and quite relieved, everyone re-boarded and we left on time.
The ticket inspector gave me a knowing grin. Not all my fellow passengers saw the funny side of it, however. I never did find out who reported the bag.

It's hardly a surprise that the bag was reported. Person boards train, puts bag on the rack or on a seat and then leaves!

Having said that, I've been guilty of something similar. Back in the summer of 2005, very soon after the second (but unsuccessful) terrorist attacks in London, with presumably a very heightened security level in force, I caught a train at Basingstoke at the start of a week-long holiday in Amsterdam. I had a wheeled case and a small rucksac. At Waterloo I realised I'd left the rucksac on a platform seat back at Basingstoke. Not really knowing what to do and expecting the whole SWT mainline to have been shut down I went to the lost luggage office. They called Basingstoke, the rucksac had been found and was due to be sent to the Waterloo office without any more fuss than that! I collected it when I returned from Amsterdam.

 

[Iskra]

In the times before ticket barriers were fitted, I boarded an evening Leeds train at Kings X, about 15 mins before departure, went to my seat, then decided to nip back onto the concourse to get a sandwich.
Going back to the train, I could see all the passengers disembarking. BTP were there in numbers, and stopped me at the platform gate.
They said the train was being evacuated, so I said 'can I go and get my bag?'.
After a few words into his radio, he asked me which coach and seat, then asked 'Can you describe your bag ?'. I did, and saw him smile.
Feeling shamed and embarrassed, I was escorted to the coach and identified my bag. The 'All Clear' was given, BTP were satisfied and quite relieved, everyone re-boarded and we left on time.
The ticket inspector gave me a knowing grin. Not all my fellow passengers saw the funny side of it, however. I never did find out who reported the bag.

On a very empty class 156 on a rural Norfolk branchline one evening, I politely asked the only other passenger in the carriage if she would mind watching my suitcase while I went to the (small) toilet, which was only a few metres away and in the same carriage. She refused as it could have been a bomb. I think some people get overly worked up because of all the security announcements and common sense goes out of the window!

...But, I've also been on the other side of it when working at a station. I once had a young gentleman of Asian descent rush into the room I was in, dump his drab green bergen and military webbing (also popular with suicide bombers) in the room and run off down the platform. Me, my colleague and the only other passenger in the room all looked at each other with horror and I went to find the relevant authorities who attended and told me I'd done the right thing. The chap returned after a short while, thought he was funny and got a right rollocking.

 

[TurbineEnginee]

This is the mistake most people (including railway staff) make. The risk is not low. Thr likelihood thst it is a bomb is low, indeed so low as to perhaps be near zero.

But given the nature of the hazard (bomb) and indeed the fact the hazard is not accidental but a deliberate act by a sentient being that can plan and predict, the consequences of not taking appropriate action for that one time that it is a bomb, are near certain to be catastrophic.

Multiple fatalities and even more life changing injuries. This is what makes such things extremely high risk. You have to consider both likelihood and consequences to calculate risk (which guides response).

This is exactly why you would want to see a consistent and effective (and indeed proportionate) response, to absolutely minimize the chance of an ineffective response leading to serious consequences.

Terror fatigue is a thing. So are home made bombs. Things need to be proportionate but effective. This is why we have a Terror Threat Level system for example. It was raised recently. The more militant elements of the IRA have form for blowing up civilians without warning, and crowded areas are their preferred target. Joe Biden might not wish it to be true, but it is.

We clearly need to do better based on your experience. While at the same time not letting terrorists change our way of life (recognizing this is their secondary if not often their primary goal).

This is just succumbing to irrational fear and the security theatre that ensues.

How many bags exploded on a train in your lifetime?

 

[island]

This is the mistake most people (including railway staff) make. The risk is not low. Thr likelihood thst it is a bomb is low, indeed so low as to perhaps be near zero.

Multiple fatalities and even more life changing injuries. This is what makes such things extremely high risk. You have to consider both likelihood and consequences to calculate risk (which guides response).

This is the mistake most people (especially on internet forums) make. The risk is a product of both the likelihood of a thing happening (in this case very low) and the impact if it does happen (very high). How you combine these tends to vary by organisation but in mine that would come out to medium risk.

 

[mpthomson]

This is just succumbing to irrational fear and the security theatre that ensues.

How many bags exploded on a train in your lifetime?

Parson's Green in 2017, which fortunately was only a partial detonation as the device wasn't fully viable, if it had fully detonated then the death toll would probably have been in 3 figures, the 2005 tube bombings, plus the Madrid train bombings in 2004 (193 killed) are some of the recent Islamist ones, there were also six train or station bombings in the UK, some of which involved unattended luggage, in the 70s and 80s plus one in the nineties.

Worldwide since 1970 there have been 48 terrorist incidents involving bombs on trains or stations, so the answer to your question is quite a few.

 

[L401CJF]

We get left bags all the time onboard our trains. Mostly very obvious and typical of the location. I'll usually do a quick shout to see if it belongs to anybody nearby, if not I'll move people away and gently investigate it. Once I've deemed it OK it gets taken to lost property when possible.

I recently had a rucksack which did cause me some concern - left in an unusual place reported by another passenger - hidden under a table. Hidden? Yes. Obviously Suspicious? Yes. Typical of this location? Not really, most people keep rucksacks in racks or on the seat next to them.

She gave a description of the person who left it and where they left the train. I moved people away from it and left it alone. Next stop was Wolverhampton so I alerted the dispatcher immediately- who as it happens was coming to find me because the guy who left it had already realised and phoned the station. Apparently he was following down on the next train to collect it.

Until that moment I wasn't happy with the bag at all and had the dispatcher not already been aware and ready to collect it, I would have escalated things.

 

[Buzby]

How many bags exploded on a train in your lifetime?

I think 1 is the usual number?

 

[MisterSheeps]

Context is everything, I got on a train at Blaenau Ffestiniog, a little old lady had left her shopping bag on a nice bench, the guard picked it up and gently asked her if she had left it.
What is a lone person supposed to do if they need the toilet or visit the buffet coach? Take their suitcase? Don't think so

 

[jon81uk]

Context is everything, I got on a train at Blaenau Ffestiniog, a little old lady had left her shopping bag on a nice bench, the guard picked it up and gently asked her if she had left it.
What is a lone person supposed to do if they need the toilet or visit the buffet coach? Take their suitcase? Don't think so

This is why some airport toilet cubicles at arrivals are massive, so you are able to take the case into the cubicle with you.
I know airports are different to trains though. If onboard a train most people ask another person in the carriage to watch their bag for them while the go to the toilet/shop.

 

[43066]

I know memories are short, but the terrorist threat these days is not simply random inexperienced Islamist extremists coached from afar, if at all. It's hardened Irish Republicans with decades of experience to call on.

Any evidence for this?

 

[trainophile]

This is why some airport toilet cubicles at arrivals are massive, so you are able to take the case into the cubicle with you.
I know airports are different to trains though. If onboard a train most people ask another person in the carriage to watch their bag for them while the go to the toilet/shop.

Cardiff Central platform 1/2 Ladies toilets have big 'suitcase accommodating' cubicles, as does Taunton. There are probably others, those are the two I've had personal experience of.

 

[Fleetmaster]

Any evidence for this?

Not sure what you mean? Is it not common knowledge the Terror Threat Level was raised recently because dissident Republicans successfully attacked an off duty PNSI officer and are extremely agitated about the Northern Irish Brexit protocol?

 

[Acey]

I was a Guard on South Eastern during the 70s,after the bomb exploded on the Sevenoaks -Cannon Street train outside Canon Street ,delays caused by security alerts due to unattendeditems were almost daily,at first staff were very cautious of stuff left on trains /platforms etc but as is usual ,after hundreds of bags were checked to find (usually) old trainers and sandwiches ,we all became somewhat blase about the whole thing ( especially if we wanted to get home on time ) I do remember an incident at Orpington when an unattended briefcase was left on the middle of the platform ,bomb squad were called and all personnel and passenger had to evacuate the area,myself and a few others took refuge down the down sidings while a controlled explosion was carried out ( lots of documents and some poor souls lunch were sent 50 ft in to the air and floated gracefully all over the platform )
I mentioned this to a Grove Park driver who sheepishly admitted he had put the briefcase on the platform ,his train was ECS to GPK Depot and was his last working so he didn't want to faff about informing station staff that he had found the briefcase in the unit and had placed it on the platform !

 

[TurbineEnginee]

Parson's Green in 2017, which fortunately was only a partial detonation as the device wasn't fully viable, if it had fully detonated then the death toll would probably have been in 3 figures, the 2005 tube bombings, plus the Madrid train bombings in 2004 (193 killed) are some of the recent Islamist ones, there were also six train or station bombings in the UK, some of which involved unattended luggage, in the 70s and 80s plus one in the nineties.

Worldwide since 1970 there have been 48 terrorist incidents involving bombs on trains or stations, so the answer to your question is quite a few.

Super. Now here’s the second question.

How many unattended bags did not explode on a train in your lifetime?

You can’t wiki that unfortunately.

You’re actually going to have to think.

Bonus marks if you can predict the third question.