Under Caution

[CC87]

Hi All

First time post and beleive me I dont want to be here but Ive been a silly boy.

Brief story but I was today put 'under Caution' and provided with a GTREM slip saying I will recevie a letter in the post.

This was the third time I had to liaise with the officers at the barrier (previously I paid two fines for not having the right ticket), but today I actually had the correct ticket when I arrived at the London station. However the problem was, was I brought it 1 minute before I went to the barrier at the train station as my phone battery was zero when I got on the train at my orginal station.

Ill be honest with you all for the last 9 months I have been paying for shorter journey tickets on Trainline and they did see this on my trainline app, so im keen to know what will the likely outcome be for me?
Will they go through my account now in full? Will they go through CCTV? As they mentioned CCTV to me and im now in complete panic mode as financially I can not afford a fine.

Ive been under deep stress for a long time now as I have been going through a long winded expensive divorce (for over a year) and mentally with my ADHD and my mental health issues I just havent been thinking straight, today though has truly bitten me on the bum and its a big lesson learnt.

From now on im paying the full fare with a season ticket, but what am I to expect from this?
Would really appreciate any help/advice at all.
Regards

 

[Gloster]

Which train company was this with?

 

[CC87]

It was with thameslink

 

[John R]

Yes, they will go through your account and assess how many times you have short-fared. You'd be well advised to do the same and put it in a spreadsheet, so that you can be ready to deal with them when the inevitable letter arrives.

GTR is normally very good at offering out of court settlements if you cooperate and are honest and contrite. But their offer will be based on the number of times you have fraudulently travelled, and could be as much as the full Anytime Single fare for each journey undertaken, although we do sometimes see a lower amount offered. The offer will also include an amount for their admin costs - typically around £150.

 

[Titfield]

Once you have calculated the amount of fares avoided plus the administration fee, you need to think about how you can pay this if you are offered an out of court settlement.

TOCS do not offer payment plans. If you do not pay / can not pay then the matter would be escalated to court which would be far more damaging (cost, criminal record) albeit you would then be given time to pay through a payment plan.

 

[CC87]

Thank you for your replies, I really appreciate it.

So in a nutshell, im going to be given a hefty fine....ive worked out it could be around 3k of travel.

I could honestly cry right now, along with my divorce this is just something I would not be able to pay
Do thameslink consider your personal situations? i.e my mental health and my divorce & if I stated to them ive learnt a lesson and I will be paying the full fare?

Also, If they did offer an out of court settlement, what happens if i cant physically afford to pay thousands of pounds....
If I was to be given say £250 fine or something, then I maybe able to manage that but thousands of pounds I cant manage (And i wont be given any financial aid on this as im already with a Debt charity consolodating my old debts)

 

[Gloster]

I am afraid that the railway is highly unlikley to take your personal circumstances into consideration, particularly as this has been going on for a long time. If you can’t pay the full amount of the out of court offer quickly, it will almost certainly go to court.

 

[Titfield]

An out of court settlement is not a fine.

A TOC wont consider your personal circumstances.

EDIT

The TOC are seeking the fares you should have paid (the question whether it is fair to ask for the full single fare is sadly not relevant) and an admin fee.

If you cant pay the out of court settlement offered (if it is offered) then going to court would give you the opportunity to pay in installments but I would not take this route if it could possibly be avoided.

The debt charity may be able to try and explain this to the TOC but I very much doubt that the TOC would take this into account.

 

[CC87]

So are the out of court settlements a calaulation of ALL the times they think you have evaded a full fare (So for example its a 100 trips, will it be 100 multipled by the RTN fare plus their admin fees)

is it a high percentage of them going through your history?

Im preparing myself for the worse, its just I dont have any money at all....I know ive done wrong but im already with a debt management plan....god give me strength

 

[Titfield]

An out of court settlement is usually calculated as the full one way single for each journey you have taken where they believe you have short fared.

A return will be calculated as two single fares. So if you went to work 5 days in a week then that would be 10 single fares. (5 X 2).

No credit or deduction is made for the fare you did actually pay. So yes this can work out to be very expensive indeed.

On top of that there is an admin fee of £100 - £200 based on how much work they have to do investigating your online account. They will go through your history.

I would not normally say this but if the total amount due (based on full single fares) is very high, it may be worth "arguing" that the fare due should be calculated on the lowest valid fare you could have paid. The worst that could then happen is they say No, withdraw the offer they have made and take you to court where you could plead not guilty and then make your case in court. If you are found guilty and the magistrates do not accept your reasoning then at least you would have time to pay but please NB if you go to court then there is a fine and surcharge to pay as well as the TOCs fares and admin fee. As you pleaded not guilty you would not get the discount on the fine for pleading guilty at the earliest stage.

I rather think you need to do the calculation and then find someone to discuss this with in person given your personal circumstances.

 

[CC87]

Thank you for taking the tiem Titfield on this

I think I understand everything.

Out of curiosity, how far back though will they go? Could they go to 9 months? Or is there a certain cut off?

 

[John R]

Thank you for taking the tiem Titfield on this

I think I understand everything.

Out of curiosity, how far back though will they go? Could they go to 9 months? Or is there a certain cut off?

They can (and will) go back as far as they need to. Ie, whilst they see what look like short fare purchases, they will keep working back through your account.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Out of curiosity, how far back though will they go? Could they go to 9 months? Or is there a certain cut off?

They can go right back to when you signed up for the account (or six years, whichever is shorter)

 

[CC87]

Really? Wow that I wasn't expecting.

Looks like I'm going to prison then.

There's so many people committing worse offences than this in life and get away Scottfree.

I pay all my taxes in life but a few train fares (service is shocking and is late/delayed and they want us to pay a premium)

I know in the past what ive done is wrong but I suffer with my mental health bad and it seems by all account they won't care about that.

Thank you for all your time and responses, I just wait for the extreme bad news and in the meantime pay the full fare

 

[John R]

Really? Wow that I wasn't expecting.

Looks like I'm going to prison then.

There's so many people committing worse offences than this in life and get away Scottfree.

I pay all my taxes in life but a few train fares (service is shocking and is late/delayed and they want us to pay a premium)

I know in the past what ive done is wrong but I suffer with my mental health bad and it seems by all account they won't care about that.

Thank you for all your time and responses, I just wait for the extreme bad news and in the meantime pay the full fare

No, you won't go to prison. Even for those cases that end up in court, I don't recall a single case which has resulted in an immediate custodial sentence (or even a suspended one).

And what you've been doing is very clear intentional fraud, not a spur of the moment action, and on an industrial scale over many months. You might pay your taxes (most people have no choice due to PAYE), but you have been depriving the rail industry, and thus the government where all the fares end up, of the revenue it was due. So no, it's not a trivial offence.

 

[WesternLancer]

There's so many people committing worse offences than this in life and get away Scottfree.

Well you were evading fares and getting away scott free, as are many others, until you got caught.

But you will get good advice here on how to get the 'least worst' outcome you can going forwards

 

[CC87]

If I now pay for the full fare (as I should of been) on my trainline accnt do you think they will look at my account and see I've learnt my lesson? And my behaviour is now better....or they won't care about that?

Do you think they will want to make an example of me and go all the way back?

In cases you guys have seen before similarly to mine what is it I'm.highly expecting?
 

 

[furlong]

I think some of this information is unnecessarily alarming.

1) You should only be asked to pay for the parts of the journeys you have not already paid for - you shouldn't be asked to pay for any part of the journey twice (based on the stations where the train you were on actually stopped and you would have been able to get on or off using any tickets you actually purchased). This is the default approach of this train operator.

2) If the amount owed is too much for you to pay all at once, you can try to negotiate a payment plan. (The forum has seen this train operator agree to this previously.)

 

[Alfonso]

It's worth bearing mind that most of what you'll need to pay is not any sort of penalty or fine or punishment or making an example of you but simply the fares you haven't paid.

 

[furlong]

They'll have no interest in making an example of you. They just want the money you still owe them for the journeys you made. They will go back as far as their data allows them to.

 

[WesternLancer]

If I now pay for the full fare (as I should of been) on my trainline accnt do you think they will look at my account and see I've learnt my lesson? And my behaviour is now better....or they won't care about that?

Do you think they will want to make an example of me and go all the way back?

In cases you guys have seen before similarly to mine what is it I'm.highly expecting?
 

No do not do that now - I think that would be money wasted and just giving Trainline money for something you will get no credit for

You need to engage with the train company revenue enforcement team now so the thing to do is to wait until you heard from them and then at each step of the way head back here where people will advise you how to respond from the options available to get the least worst outcome you can get.

Have a look at other threads involving the same train company to get an idea on what to expect.

 

[Starmill]

TOCS do not offer payment plans. If you do not pay / can not pay then the matter would be escalated to court which would be far more damaging (cost, criminal record) albeit you would then be given time to pay through a payment plan.

I would like to gently point out that this isn't actually the case. In reality there's a commercial negotiation to be had, and it's up to each individual company to decide if this is something they'll negotiate over or not. Some may, some may not. What I think you're getting at here is that the OP is in a very weak position to negotiate anything out of the company - if that's the gist of what you're saying then I'd say that's exactly right.

 

[Haywain]

If I now pay for the full fare (as I should of been) on my trainline accnt do you think they will look at my account and see I've learnt my lesson? And my behaviour is now better....or they won't care about that?

They won't particularly care, but they do want to see that you have learnt your lesson, and paying the correct fare isn't something that you should either need to ask about or expect any credit for doing.

There is a possibility that you might be able to negotiate a payment plan but, realistically, the train company only have 6 months to start court proceedings, so they are highly unlikely to allow you to pay the amount owed over 12 months as there is little they can then do if you default.

In your debt situation, there is an argument that you might be better off allowing this to go to court, because you will only be prosecuted for the one instance and if that happens the fine will be related to your income and the court will usually allow time to pay. Having said that, I think it would be appropriate to take advice on the matter. The other option is if you are receiving help with your debt management, to use that help to discuss the possibility of a payment plan with the train company, as they may be more willing to accept such a proposal if it is managed or supervised by a third party. I would point out that I have no professional experience in such matters and these are just thoughts about how you could proceed.

 

[Starmill]

Really? Wow that I wasn't expecting.

Looks like I'm going to prison then.

There's so many people committing worse offences than this in life and get away Scottfree.

I pay all my taxes in life but a few train fares (service is shocking and is late/delayed and they want us to pay a premium)

I know in the past what ive done is wrong but I suffer with my mental health bad and it seems by all account they won't care about that.

Thank you for all your time and responses, I just wait for the extreme bad news and in the meantime pay the full fare

Please take a deep breath and try not to let this get out of proportion.

The worst realistic outcome is a conviction. This could result in a large bill you're ordered to pay by the court and a criminal record. That's the worst of it

 

[greyman42]

Please take a deep breath and try not to let this get out of proportion.

The worst realistic outcome is a conviction. This could result in a large bill you're ordered to pay by the court and a criminal record. That's the worst of it

Sound advice.

 

[AlterEgo]

I could honestly cry right now, along with my divorce this is just something I would not be able to pay
Do thameslink consider your personal situations? i.e my mental health and my divorce & if I stated to them ive learnt a lesson and I will be paying the full fare?

No. You’ve effectively stolen from them. Why would they just let this slide?

I pay all my taxes in life but a few train fares

It’s £3,000 worth according to you. This is offending on a premeditated and prolonged scale. It’s not “a few train fares” is it?

You need to readjust your attitude to your offending before you write back to the company, because it does not sound like you are taking responsibility for things.

 

[CC87]

No. You’ve effectively stolen from them. Why would they just let this slide?


It’s £3,000 worth according to you. This is offending on a premeditated and prolonged scale. It’s not “a few train fares” is it?

You need to readjust your attitude to your offending before you write back to the company, because it does not sound like you are taking responsibility for things.

With my adhd and going through an extreme tough divorce I admit I haven't been thinking straight for a very long time.

It's not about me not taking responsibility for things but I do have a mental health issue and alot of my actions I do in life are just done carelessly and become a force of habbit....thats what ADHD does to you.

My adhd is a weakness, yes it's been going on for a longtime this but I've truly learnt my lesson today and been caught red handed.

I just want to keep this all factual,.I'll await for the letter I get sent.

In the meantime I do want to thank everyone for their contribution on this matter.

 

[WesternLancer]

With my adhd and going through an extreme tough divorce I admit I haven't been thinking straight for a very long time.

It's not about me not taking responsibility for things but I do have a mental health issue and alot of my actions I do in life are just done carelessly and become a force of habbit....thats what ADHD does to you.

My adhd is a weakness, yes it's been going on for a longtime this but I've truly learnt my lesson today and been caught red handed.

I just want to keep this all factual,.I'll await for the letter I get sent.

In the meantime I do want to thank everyone for their contribution on this matter.

People will definitely help you here and sorry to hear about your health issues. Just stick with the thread and ask for help when you need it as the process goes along.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

If I now pay for the full fare (as I should of been) on my trainline accnt do you think they will look at my account and see I've learnt my lesson? And my behaviour is now better....or they won't care about that?

No do not do that now - I think that would be money wasted and just giving Trainline money for something you will get no credit for

I may have a different understanding of the question here from @WesternLancer and so I'd like to give a different answer.

To me, the OP seems to be asking if they should pay the right fare for future train journeys. If that's the question (and what the OP understood their question to be) then the answer is 'yes'. This may not be enough to convince the railway that you have learnt your lesson and changed your ways - but if you don't pay the right fare in future then the railway will undoubtedly feel that you're not taking the matter seriously, and they will be reluctant to offer an out of court settlement.

 

[WesternLancer]

I may have a different understanding of the question here from @WesternLancer and so I'd like to give a different answer.

To me, the OP seems to be asking if they should pay the right fare for future train journeys. If that's the question (and what the OP understood their question to be) then the answer is 'yes'. This may not be enough to convince the railway that you have learnt your lesson and changed your ways - but if you don't pay the right fare in future then the railway will undoubtedly feel that you're not taking the matter seriously, and they will be reluctant to offer an out of court settlement.

Thank you @Fawkes Cat - I has concluded that the OP wanted to go on line to buy a correct ticket as some sort of way of trying to make amends for wrong tickets bought before.

But if is as you say, about buying tickets for future travel - of course, yes 100% of them need to be totally correct tickets for the journey being made.