underlying issue with how Trainline (et al) record and apply railcard discounts?

[Alpine Rider]

moderator note: split from

Got caught using wrong Railcard

Got caught recently by Chiltern through using the Trainline app with a valid Network Railcard but tickets bought under “26-30”. This has been ongoing for a few months where I thought that my old railcard was still valid (there was no prompt to say otherwise) and most recent purchases I had it...

www.railforums.co.uk

Not wishing to distract from this thread - but this enquiry does trigger a concern...

Am I sensing that there may be an underlying issue with how Trainline (et al) record and apply railcard discounts?

If so does this need someone to investigate and fix rather than simply pursuing endless prosecutions? Who is responsible for validating the current online ticketing arrangements and who should be ensuring those systems work correctly for the interests of customers and train operators?

Rather than "assuming" a prior discount entitlement continues to be valid - surely it is not beyond the IT systems to automatically check every time to ensure any Railcard (or other entitlement) has not expired and remains valid for the ticket being purchased.

The current defaults seem to almost inevitably result in some people unintentionally paying the wrong price for their ticket despite quite evidently attempting to do the right thing and buy a valid ticket for their journey?

This set up is only going to result in customers giving up on rail!

 

[swt_passenger]

Not wishing to distract from this thread - but this enquiry does trigger a concern...

We have had a number of threads already discussing this more general point about Apps defaulting to previously selected railcards.

 

[Fermiboson]

Perhaps more pertinently OP from that thread posted what appears to be misleading marketing material from Trainline.

Surely something can be done about retailers that don’t properly present railcard restrictions to customers? I know that some more unscrupulous Chinese travel websites for example misrepresent the restrictions on family railcards and off peak tickets.

 

[L401CJF]

RMT sent out an email this week to Members with a survey attached regarding Trainline.

Here is the email.

RMT Survey - Tell us about problems you encounter at work with Trainline!

Dear colleague,

RMT has long-standing concerns about the activities of third-party retailer Trainline - including around its profiteering from passenger ticket sales, and the extent to which passengers are sold the most appropriate and affordable tickets for their journey.

We are aware that many of our members report that they encounter passengers who have unknowingly purchased more expensive or incorrect tickets via the Trainline.

To assist us in our work to highlight the problems with Trainline and why it is better for passengers to purchase tickets directly from rail operators, we are asking our members who work in ticket offices or who undertake ticket examination about their experiences of dealing with tickets purchased via Trainline.

You can access the survey here - (link removed)

Plenty of comments boxes to write what you think too!

 

[Deafdoggie]

This discussion comes round more regularly than Elsmere Port to Helsby trains.
No one on these forums can agree on what the solution should be. Apart from ticket purchasers should take responsibility for ensuring their ticket is correct.
For what it's worth, Trainline default to leaving a previous via/avoid selection, yet how many people overpay or go a long way round because they didn't notice? The thing they forget is the thing that gives them discount.

 

[Haywain]

RMT sent out an email this week to Members with a survey attached regarding Trainline.

Here is the email.



Plenty of comments boxes to write what you think too!

The email says "to highlight ... why it is better for passengers to purchase tickets directly from rail operators", which makes this sound like it will be an attack on all third party retailers. It also rather overlooks that a number of "rail operators" websites are provided by the very same Trainline. I think RMT are, if not barking up the wrong tree, somewhat confused about which tree they should be barking up.

 

[island]

I think RMT are, if not barking up the wrong tree, somewhat confused about which tree they should be barking up.

Agreed, and it wouldn't be the first time.

 

[Fermiboson]

The email says "to highlight ... why it is better for passengers to purchase tickets directly from rail operators", which makes this sound like it will be an attack on all third party retailers. It also rather overlooks that a number of "rail operators" websites are provided by the very same Trainline. I think RMT are, if not barking up the wrong tree, somewhat confused about which tree they should be barking up.

I don’t know if this is better suited for another thread - but do staff not like third party retailers in general? I’ve had ticket officers go on a long rant at me about scammers and unscrupulous retailers when I tried to excess an advance in a split from the forum site that consisted otherwise of flexible tickets, apparently thinking that I’ve been fooled into thinking an advance was flexible, which I had to put a stop to by pointing out that advances were simply not offered on many of the relevant flows.

 

[Haywain]

do staff not like third party retailers in general?

Having been in a front line position, I think there is an antipathy that still lasts from the earlier days of online booking. The reason for this is that in the early days, in particular, most third party retailers did not seem to put much effort into customer service with limited support hours and premium rate phone numbers for customers, and not much willingness to take phone calls from stations even when we could get through to them. As far as Trainline is concerned, I suppose that it is inevitable that the largest single retailer will generate the largest number of problems and that will give poor impressions.

That is not to say that staff should be excused for expressing their opinions on different retailers, but it's really difficult to put a stop to it and the more the railways tries to tighten it's belt on costs, the less opportunity there is for management to get to grips with such minor matters.

 

[ikcdab]

RMT sent out an email this week to Members with a survey attached regarding Trainline.

Here is the email.



Plenty of comments boxes to write what you think too!

of course, RMT have no axe to grind here, do they? I have been sold incorrect tickets from ticket offices which were cheaper on trainline.
Also, trainoine has enabled many thousands of passengers perfectly OK.
And it doesn't go on strike.
RMT really do need to get themselves into the modern world.

 

[kristiang85]

All it needs is a bit of code where the Railcard is entered with a date, and this is remembered by the Trainline passenger profile. Once that date is passed, the discount is removed. It's 2024 and should be very easy to do.

Same with TOC TVMs - ask to enter a date of Railcard expiry when using a discount, and most of the problems we see here will evaporate.

But the cynic in me thinks not helping passengers in this way makes the railway and associate companies more money, so it won't change...

 

[Deafdoggie]

All it needs is a bit of code where the Railcard is entered with a date, and this is remembered by the Trainline passenger profile. Once that date is passed, the discount is removed. It's 2024 and should be very easy to do.

Same with TOC TVMs - ask to enter a date of Railcard expiry when using a discount, and most of the problems we see here will evaporate.

But the cynic in me thinks not helping passengers in this way makes the railway and associate companies more money, so it won't change...

But you don't need to have a railcard to purchase tickets. Only to travel. I may want to buy advance tickets now, but not get my railcard till the date of travel. Or, my railcard may expire between purchase of tickets and travel date, but I'll renew it.

 

[WesternLancer]

RMT sent out an email this week to Members with a survey attached regarding Trainline.

Here is the email.



Plenty of comments boxes to write what you think too!

do all 3rd party retailers still get commission on ticket sales (6% ?) in the way that Rail Appointed Travel Agents used to do years ago?

I can imagine that RMT see this is a rake off going to another part of the private sector that is outside the railway and which they would like to see reduced / scaled back etc. I would expect them to oppose it on principle.

I would think that given the propensity of many people to buy tickets on line now, and the dominant market position that Trainline has, Trainline are making more in commission than all the high street travel agents put together would have made in the days of yore.

 

[mangyiscute]

But you don't need to have a railcard to purchase tickets. Only to travel. I may want to buy advance tickets now, but not get my railcard till the date of travel. Or, my railcard may expire between purchase of tickets and travel date, but I'll renew it.

Well then let the user have a choice of entering a railcard expiry date when they first apply a new railcard discount, clearly telling them that future journeys booked on the app will default to having this railcard discount until the expiry date they have said, at which point it will default to no railcard.
Then for users who don't want to use this feature, let them choose if they want it to auto-apply their most recent railcard choice or leave it as no railcard each time.
That way, every user would have a chance to have the system work how they want and less people would get caught out by auto application.
Furthermore, from a retailer standpoint it would allow them to further advertise railcards to you at an appropriate time (think "your railcard expires in a week, buy one here:" so they can sell more railcards through their app so its a win for them too.

 

[island]

do all 3rd party retailers still get commission on ticket sales (6% ?) in the way that Rail Appointed Travel Agents used to do years ago?

They do get commission, though I don’t know what the % is these days.

Trainline creams off booking fees too.

 

[Haywain]

Well then let the user have a choice of entering a railcard expiry date when they first apply a new railcard discount, clearly telling them that future journeys booked on the app will default to having this railcard discount until the expiry date they have said, at which point it will default to no railcard.
Then for users who don't want to use this feature, let them choose if they want it to auto-apply their most recent railcard choice or leave it as no railcard each time.

I don't believe there is anything stopping retailers doing this if they want.

 

[Deafdoggie]

To be fair, I don't know why Trainline (other ticket retailers are available) remember the railcard. They'd get more commission selling tickets at full price if people forgot to add it. But I daresay some piece of customer feedback said people preferred having it remembered. But I can't see an advantage to trainline for it

 

[Skymonster]

Contrary to most above, I wish more websites and apps would “remember” I have a railcard rather than requiring me to select a railcard each time in order to obtain the discount to which I am entitled. I know I have a railcard, I know when it is due to expire and have several reminders in electronic diaries and calendars etc to ensure I do not overlook renewing it [in three years time]. I would therefore be entirely happy if those websites and apps that require me to select a railcard each time I use them [yes, TrainSplit and its derivatives, I’m looking at you, among others] would “remember” I selected a railcard during previous transactions and default to a similar discount in all future transactions - and I have no interest in them them enforcing the input of an expiry date either. Indeed, those websites and apps failure to “remember“ I have a railcard merely increase the risk of me selecting the wrong type of railcard, in error, from the dropdown list each time I go through the process.

 

[Buzby]

And if you were purchasing travel tickets for someone who didn’t have a railcard - where would the blame lie if they were stopped by RP for not having the correct card?

I do not overlook renewing it [in three years time]

Sure it’s not perfect, but some are rushed and may not notice, so if it is always selected there is a risk. If you start your purchasing journey with the goal of ensuring you rightfully obtain the discount due, is that not reasonable. At least if you’re rushed and forget you may pay slightly more BUT no chance of prosecution and a valuable lesson. Not all tickets I buy can have a discount applied, so automatically applying it can cause more problems than it supposedly solves. TrainSplit has the right idea.

 

[skyhigh]

And if you were purchasing travel tickets for someone who didn’t have a railcard - where would the blame lie if they were stopped by RP for not having the correct card?

Depends, if the purchaser knew the traveller didn't have a valid Railcard, then Byelaw 22 applies:

22. Fares offences committed on behalf of another person​

No person shall:

1. buy a ticket on behalf of another intending to enable another person to travel without having paid the correct fare
2. transfer or produce a ticket on behalf of another person intending to enable that other person to travel without having paid the correct fare

I have never heard of a prosecution in those circumstances though.

Normally the traveller would be dealt with under Byelaw 17/18 as anyone else who didn't have a Railcard to match their ticket.

 

[alxndr]

Include two functions:

Ask "would you like to remember this railcard for future journeys?" People may choose to use this or not, and if it's given as a tickbox they can disable it whenever they wish.

When a new type of railcard is used for the first time give a prompt to save the expiry date. Saving an expiry date would cause a notification (if enabled on the mobile device) and a pop-up when the app is opened after the entered expiry date. The pop-ups could be prevented either then the saved card is removed or the expiry date amended to the future. This is similar to the autotrader MOT reminders.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I do think we're using a sledgehammer to crack a nut here. Way before the Internet I've been on trains and people had out of date railcards and were stopped for it. It's not a new thing at all.

 

[Alex C.]

I do think we're using a sledgehammer to crack a nut here. Way before the Internet I've been on trains and people had out of date railcards and were stopped for it. It's not a new thing at all.

I think the difference was that all ticket offices would ask to see the railcard (and not sell a ticket without one).

I might be misremembering but I used to travel from Meadowhall often in the early 2000s - I think the only TVM they had was a big box with individual buttons for local/popular destinations. Not sure how railcard discounts were applied.

I also think that post covid the number of railcard checks has dropped dramatically - I used to get checked on almost every journey when I presented a ticket, I have had a network railcard for 3 years now and think I've been asked for it, at most, 4 times whilst travelling 2-3 times a week every week. Even the last couple of RPIs I encountered didn't bother asking for it. I have a reminder because I know what the potential consequences are but I think it would be very easy for someone to slip up and not realise renewal is due, especially if they haven't even opened the app since they bought it.

 

[Skymonster]

And if you were purchasing travel tickets for someone who didn’t have a railcard - where would the blame lie if they were stopped by RP for not having the correct card?

So me buying for someone else and inadvertently leaving a railcard selected trumps me buying for myself and having to select a railcard each time and inadvertently mis-clicking and ending up picking the wrong one from a drop down list then? In your view, not mine. My device, my railcard, my preferences. I find the various websites’ and apps’ failure to retain my railcard selection frustrating and time wasting, and I tend not to bother with (or at least use less often) those that offer what I consider to be a less than optimal user experience. Their loss, not mine.

 

[Buzby]

Their loss, not mine.

Perhaps - but they’re not inadvertently making their clients liable for RP action. I’m not infallible but the risk is less, and I’m surprised you cannot appreciate this.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I think the difference was that all ticket offices would ask to see the railcard (and not sell a ticket without one).

But that system clearly didn't work as I saw countless people being stopped with out of date railcards in BR days

 

[rs101]

I think the difference was that all ticket offices would ask to see the railcard (and not sell a ticket without one).

I might be misremembering but I used to travel from Meadowhall often in the early 2000s - I think the only TVM they had was a big box with individual buttons for local/popular destinations. Not sure how railcard discounts were applied.

I also think that post covid the number of railcard checks has dropped dramatically - I used to get checked on almost every journey when I presented a ticket, I have had a network railcard for 3 years now and think I've been asked for it, at most, 4 times whilst travelling 2-3 times a week every week. Even the last couple of RPIs I encountered didn't bother asking for it. I have a reminder because I know what the potential consequences are but I think it would be very easy for someone to slip up and not realise renewal is due, especially if they haven't even opened the app since they bought it.

1989 - 1992 I used a railcard regularly (student in London, coming home alternate weekends). Very, very rarely asked for it when buying tickets - I remember because it was an incredibly fragile paper one and it would fall apart whenever I took it out my wallet!

Have had a Network Railcard for at least 15 years and have never been asked to show it when buying tickets in person and maybe 5 times have I been asked for it when on the trains.