Unfairly given a penalty fare on Merseyrail

[ogeIM]

Hi everyone I hope you’re all well. I just wanted to ask for any advice with this penalty fare situation I’m having. I don’t want it to get escalated but I think I was unfairly fined. Please let me know if you can help, I’ll just copy and paste my appeal and the responses because that gives a full picture of the scenario


[INITIAL APPEAL]
On Tuesday the 12th of August I was issued a fine for a ticket I bought but had unfortunately misplaced. On this day I had just come back from an extremely distressing resit exam at Edge Hill University. As Edge Hill University is where I study and I commute using Merseyrail trains (almost everyday), I am aware of where the barriers are and would never board a train without the right ticket, especially knowing there’s no way to even get through the barriers without the correct ticket. On this specific day (as CCTV evidence can show) I was carrying multiple bags and was in a rush to get home as I had another exam the next day and had to rest before preparing again.



With the evidence provided below, I have been buying term time tickets for years and have never been fined on the Merseyrail. I also have proof of payment that I bought a single ticket from Ormskirk to Liverpool central (the 16:04 train) and as the train was leaving soon I believe I must have dropped it on the platform because by the time I had gotten to Liverpool central, to my shock, the ticket was no where to be found.



As well as the distressing day I had previously, being charged a fine for a ticket I had actually paid for caused me to literally burst into tears and on top of all this, I didn’t even have the money to pay the fine or to even plead my case.



With the evidence and the statement above, I humbly request that the fine please be pardoned, especially as this is the first time I’ve been issued a fine and that it’s due to an honest accident. Furthermore, being a student, I am not in the best position financially to pay the fine.



Thank you for taking the time to consider my appeal,

- I attached a screenshot of the proof that I paid for a ticket and all the previous term time tickets that I’d bought throughout my years of commuting in Liverpool

- My appeal was rejected on the on the grounds that it was late, however looking at pictures of other people’s penalty fare notices, it says that have within 21 days from the day after the fare was given. I sent my appeal on the 21st day around 10pm and they considered it as late, so I appealed a second time

[SECOND APPEAL]
I’m writing this to appeal the decision to reject my initial appeal of the penalty fine I received on the 12th of August
As I’d previously stated in the initial appeal, I had already had a very distressing day having to do a resit examination at University and was eager to get back to accommodation is Liverpool to prepare for another exam the next day. (16:04 Ormskirk to Liverpool Central) I am also a student, I am not in the best financial position to pay the fine. Furthermore, I had many bags with me and couldn’t find the ticket I had bought at the time which is why I was fined. Since doing that exam I have discovered that I failed the exam narrowly by a few marks and have been gathering evidence for an appeal to the university so that I don’t have to withdraw from my studies. As you can imagine, this has taken a massive toll on my mental health and is a massive factor as to why the appeal was late. Additionally, after the notice was issued, I was in the process of moving back to Manchester from Liverpool for the summer holidays, in the process of moving the notice ticket was lost. This meant that I had to contact the enforcement team and wait for them to get back to me to inform me of my notice number before I could send off my appeal. The stress of having to appeal to the university and having to wait for the enforcement team to get back to me ultimately delayed my appeal time. Furthermore, because I didn’t have my notice ticket I incorrectly thought that I could submit my appeal on the 21st day after it had been given to me, not knowing it had to submitted before the 21st day. I humbly apologise for this error. In addition to all this, after moving back to Manchester and doing a deep clean I managed to find the train ticket I was initially fined for and have attached an image of it in the evidence. I understand that my initial appeal was late but I hope you can review the statement above and the evidence attached to graciously pardon the fine.’

- I attached a picture of the ticket that I had found (the one I was initially fined for misplacing)
- I only put that I ‘incorrectly thought that the appeal would be accepted on the 21st day’ because I got in contact with Merseyrail and they said the appeal had to be submitted before the 21st day, however the penalty ticket says ‘within’ which would imply an admission on the 21st day would still be accepted
- My second appeal was rejected based on the fact that they considered still considered my first appeal as late and said I didn’t meet any mitigating circumstances for the deadline to be extended

I contacted the transport focus team and they said they would try and get a refund for the ticket I bought which was £5.95. That wouldn’t be much help in my opinion, as the fine i was initially fine £50 plus the fare of the single. I asked if anything more could be done but I’m waiting on a response

I thought I should bring it here as the whole process is quite distressing and I was reduced to tears on the day I was even given then penalty fare, while the officer was turning his bodycam on

Any advice would be much appreciated, please ignore any spelling errors as I’m writing this in a rush due to the time manner of this issue. I just don’t think I should be fined for a ticket I can actually prove I purchased but please let me know your thoughts!

Thanks so much in advance!!

 

[gray1404]

You initial post here is very long and difficult to read. Perhaps you could cut it down.

Nevertheless it sounds like you were issued with a Penalty Fare on the basis that you were unable to produce your ticket on demand.

A penalty fare would be the correct way to deal with this. It is your responsibility to be able to produce your ticket on demand and an appeal cannot be just because it feels harsh.

Nevertheless possible options for appeal could be that the signage at the station you stated your journey did not comply with the regulations or if that penalty fare notice was not issued correctly. You would need to check if this applies.

At the third and final appeal compelling circumstances can be taken into consideration such as if you have a medical condition that affected you and your ability to be able to produce your ticket.

It is important though that if you do end up having to pay this you make sure you do in time at the reduced amount £50 rather then £100.

 

[JBuchananGB]

The Penalty Fare was correctly issued and you should pay it. You couldn't show your ticket when you arrived at Liverpool Central.
Presumably it was a normal Credit Card Sized Ticket obtained at the Ormskirk ticket office.
You refer to a screenshot of evidence as having bought it online, but even if you had you would still have needed to collect it at the ticket office.
You mislaid it between obtaining it and arriving at Liverpool. You hadn't dropped it on the platform, as you later found it among your possessions.
You have been treated fairly. Save yourself the stress of repeated appeals and just pay it.

 

[ogeIM]

You initial post here is very long and difficult to read. Perhaps you could cut it down.

So sorry about this.

In summary I bought a ticket on the Merseyrail and misplaced it by the time I needed it for the barriers, so i received a penalty fine. I appealed, but it was rejected as they considered it late as it was sent on the 21st day, even though the notice ticket says I can appeal within 21 days

I found the train ticket I had initially misplaced and then appealed again but they rejected it due to them considering my first appeal as late

I contacted transport focus but they weren’t much help either, that’s why I’m asking for advice as I have the ticket and evidence I bought it and was hoping something could be done

Thank you for your response

 

[gray1404]

So sorry about this.

In summary I bought a ticket on the Merseyrail and misplaced it by the time I needed it for the barriers, so i received a penalty fine. I appealed, but it was rejected as they considered it late as it was sent on the 21st day, even though the notice ticket says I can appeal within 21 days

I found the train ticket I had initially misplaced and then appealed again but they rejected it due to them considering my first appeal as late

I contacted transport focus but they weren’t much help either, that’s why I’m asking for advice as I have the ticket and evidence I bought it and was hoping something could be done

Thank you for your response

We will of course still try to help you.

Please post a copy of the penalty fare notice with your personal details retracted.

What was the date of travel? What date exactly did you submit your first appeal?

 

[ogeIM]

We will of course still try to help you.

Please post a copy of the penalty fare notice with your personal details retracted.

What was the date of travel? What date exactly did you submit your first appeal?

Thank you

Unfortunately due to the move I mentioned in my original post I have lost my penalty fare notice but I contacted the Enforcement team and had a look online on the website and other people’s penalty fare notices

- the date of my travel was on the 12th of August and the penalty fare notice was given to me at 16:48 at Liverpool Central
- online and on other notices, the rule states that I can appeal within 21 days from the day after the notice was given, which I believe would be the end of 21st day, which would be the 3rd of September
- I sent my appeal on the 3rd of September at 22:42pm

Please let me know if you need any other information

 

[MotCO]

Unfortunately we would need to see the original PF you were given to check that it had stated the correct destinations, reasons for issuing it etc.

 

[gray1404]

I too would agree that the 21 days begins the day after the notice was issued by counting forward 21 days from that day.

I shall see what other experienced forum members think about this. However if it turns out that the first appeal was rejected on the basis it was out of time when in fact it wasn't, surely this would be a basis for the OP to have their appeal upheld? This would be because they had been wrongly denied their right to appeal as per the regulations?

Thoughts?

 

[Haywain]

- online and on other notices, the rule states that I can appeal within 21 days from the day after the notice was given, which I believe would be the end of 21st day, which would be the 3rd of September
- I sent my appeal on the 3rd of September at 22:42pm

21 days after August 12th looks like it means September 2nd.

 

[ogeIM]

Unfortunately we would need to see the original PF you were given to check that it had stated the correct destinations, reasons for issuing it etc.

I will contact the enforcement team to see if they can forward me a copy from their end

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Oct 2024 ==

21 days after August 12th looks like it means September 2nd.

Thanks for your response

Online it says 21 days from the day after the notice was given so I would assume the first day would be the 13th of August, making the 21st day the 3rd of September

Please let me know if I’m incorrect

 

[Haywain]

I would assume the first day would be the 13th of August, making the 21st day the 3rd of September

Please let me know if I’m incorrect

You need to sit down with a calendar and count the days - 13th is day one, and 2nd September will be day 21. Sorry.

 

[greatkingrat]

Appeals – stage one​

16.—(1) A person (“the appellant”) charged a penalty fare under regulation 5(1) may appeal against that penalty fare to the relevant Appeal Panel—
(a)before the end of the period of 21 days beginning with the day after the day on which the penalty fare is charged; or
(b)within such longer period as the relevant Appeal Panel may allow.

So I would agree that 13th August is Day 1 and Day 21 is 2nd September.

 

[scrapy]

Maybe the thread title should be changed on this one as I see nothing in the OPs comments to suggest that the penalty fare was issued unfairly.

There are plenty of times Merseyrail have issued penalties and prosecutions, and before reading the first post, I was under the impression that this could be one of them, but I'm this instance I feel the penalty fare was correctly issued unless the more comes to light, but on this case the title appears to suggest unfairly that Merseyrail are in the wrong, where I see no evidence of this.

The offence is failing to produce a ticket, not failing to purchase one. Its also from Merseyrails point of view quite feasible that there were 2 people traveling for the price of 1, one carrying the ticket, the other the proof of payment. That's why the proof of payment means nothing legally. This unfortunately is quite a common tactic used by fare evaders.

There is nothing to stop the OP making a further appeal, but I would not be surprised without a more compelling reason, such as incorrect signage, the appeal will be unsuccessful. This would of course give more time to pay. If they could post a picture of the penalty fare notice (with personal details taken out) there may be errors on the notice that could show it was issued incorrectly.

I can see no fare of £5.95 between Ormskirk and Liverpool or Edge Hill. So if the penalty is issued for £105.95, it is probably incorrect. We could do with a copy of the notice.

 

[Haywain]

I can see no fare of £5.95 between Ormskirk and Liverpool or Edge Hill. So if the penalty is issued for £105.95, it is probably incorrect. We could do with a copy of the notice.

Unfortunately for the OP, the time for appeal has gone along with the time for paying the reduced amount.

 

[peter.owen]

I can see no fare of £5.95 between Ormskirk and Liverpool or Edge Hill.

Fares on Merseyrail were increased on 15 September. The current fare from Ormskirk to Liverpool Central is £6.20, so presumably £5.95 was the fare on 12 August.

 

[gray1404]

I would advise the OP to goto the third appeal if they are still in time. What have they got to loose. But they will need to word their final appeal very carefully so should come for advise here first.

I am surprised Merseyrail have not been in touch chasing payment. Have you received anything in the post? I personally would not contact them so as not to prompt them.

 

[Haywain]

I would advise the OP to goto the third appeal if they are still in time.

They are out of time - the first appeal was too late.

I am surprised Merseyrail have not been in touch chasing payment. Have you received anything in the post?

The OP hasn't submitted a valid appeal within the specified timescale so, if payment is not made, Merseyrail could move straight to prosecution.

 

[AlterEgo]

I agree that the first appeal was submitted late and this now invalidates their appeal, the second appeal, and any third appeal. It's quite simple, it was out of time I'm afraid, and I regret that I agree the penalty fare should be paid promptly to avoid prosecution.

 

[gray1404]

And what if the third appeal agree with the OPs interpretation of 21 days. I'd suggest pay up now if that's still possible and do the third appeal anyway.

 

[Cuthbert]

And what if the third appeal agree with the OPs interpretation of 21 days. I'd suggest pay up now if that's still possible and do the third appeal anyway.

The OPs interpretation is correct unfortunately he did not count 13th August as day 1. PFd on the 12th August 21 days starts from the 13th making 2nd September correct deadline.

 

[furlong]

So you have indeed now to request permission to appeal as you've lost your automatic right to this.

It was always envisaged that evidence of a lost ticket MAY provide valid grounds for a successful appeal of a Penalty Fare so indeed compiling evidence of this payment and regular previous payment was the right thing to do. It's worth including a couple of supporting quotes from Parliament to remind the people assessing your appeal of this.

Parliament was told originally:

What is more important, the trained, authorised personnel will be given discretion. If a person says, "I have lost my ticket"—not a completely unknown predicament, in which some of us may have found ourselves—it will be possible for the official to say, "That is all right, you can go." There will also be a 21-day discretionary period. If a notice is issued to a passenger, he will be able to put his case in writing. The matter will then be examined by the appropriate authorities at head office. There will be no attempt to bulldoze or bully passengers. If a reasonable excuse is given, discretion can be exercised by those in authority.

and
more recently

The change was put into place to ensure a more effective deterrent. This should reduce the cost of fare evasion from passengers travelling without a valid ticket while ensuring that honest, fare-paying passengers are not unfairly penalised.
...
Staff who issue penalty fares are trained and authorised in the procedure and are allowed to use their discretion on whether to issue a penalty fare. This helps to mitigate the impact on those passengers whose intention was not to avoid paying but, for whatever reason, have a ticket that does not match their intended journey.

... it is not an absolute certainty that if one is on a train with a ticket that does not match your intended journey, you will get a penalty fare. There may be reasons why it would not be appropriate. That is fair on passengers and provides the best experience to the travelling public.

However, should a passenger receive a penalty fare and feel that it is really not appropriate, there is a robust appeals process, which was introduced in 2018. That provides a further level of protection for passengers who feel that they have been treated unfairly. This appeals process has three different levels, and the third appeal is considered by an independent panel of three members, none of whom was involved in the handling of the previous two appeals.

 

[WesternLancer]

Given the risk now exists of prosecution or debt collection (with increased costs) the OP should pay the sum requested now.

Then after paying they can try to pursues further appeals even if out of time as they would be refunded if an appeal was won (but I should say I doubt that will happen but no harm in trying).

Merseyrail do pursue debts like this and we have seen cases on here that could have been sorted out for £50 escalating to £400+ where people have failed to pay up or appealed properly.

 

[some bloke]

Hello @ogeIM ,

Is your key point perhaps something like this?

"I hope that the panel will forgive me for submitting the first appeal a day late, in view of the proof of my ticket which I supplied with the second appeal.

I had paid for the journey in full. I only found the ticket again after the first appeal."

You could also write, if it's all true,

"As the company suffered no loss, I believe that this is the kind of circumstance envisaged by the government, when introducing penalty fares regulations, as justifying an appeal decision in the passenger's favour.

[and include quotations in line with what @furlong has posted above]

I apologise to the company and the appeal board for mislaying the ticket, and for appealing late. I have resolved to be more organised in future."

If you appeal again, please be much more concise.

If possible, include evidence for any statements you think are important such as on your mental health.

You may decide that you would prefer to be brief as above instead.

Please put a draft on here for people to comment.

 

[Haywain]

I hope that the panel will forgive me for submitting the first appeal a day late, in view of the proof of my ticket which I supplied with the second appeal.

There were no first and second appeals because they were submitted out of time.

 

[some bloke]

There were no first and second appeals because they were submitted out of time.

I think that I understand what you are saying, but that it's worth trying.

I suggest it is reasonable to interpret 18(1) as saying people can appeal in these circumstances ("Where an Appeal Panel has notified an appellant that it has not allowed an appeal").

Those words don't have to imply that there was a valid appeal, just that there was notification that no appeal had been allowed - which is true here.

The word "allowed" in the context of court appeals means "agreed in the appellant's favour" rather than that a hearing was "allowed to take place".

they rejected it due to them considering my first appeal as late

You might put the quotations from the government as Note 1, then as Note 2 say

"I believe that the response I received to my second appeal satisfies the requirement in Penalty Fares Regulation 18 (1). In a meaningful and relevant sense, the panel notified me that it had not allowed an appeal."

(if you do believe that).

"18.—(1) Where an Appeal Panel has notified an appellant that it has not allowed an appeal under regulation 17 the appellant may appeal to the relevant Final Appeal Panel against that decision"

The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018

These Regulations make provision for the charging of penalty fares for the failure to produce, when required to do so, a ticket or other authority authorising a person to travel by train or to be present in a compulsory ticket area at a station.

www.legislation.gov.uk

If you post on here the responses from the appeal body with identifying details removed, this issue may become clearer. Perhaps it won't need mentioning; you could say you are adding the note "in case the panel is minded not to consider the appeal because the first appeal was late".