Unreserved seating with a reserved seat ticket.

[Kryten2340]

Hi. Can anyone tell me what the rules on this are? Example being let's say you book a last minute advance ticket with a seat reservation but as you're booking last minute your choice of seats is slim pickings (i.e airline style seat only) but you want to work and would like a table. Is chancing your luck in unreserved seating fair game or are you obligated to take your allocated seat?

That's what happened to me today traveling back from Aberdeen to Newcastle with LNER. I was given an airline seat in coach B but as it was the start of the service getting a table in coach C which was unreserved was simple. When the guard came checking tickets however he pointed out to those in coach c, me included that you have a reserved seat in coach whatever.

In my case the train didn't start to get busy until Edinburgh and I would have thought that sitting in someone's reserved seat is fair game if nobody is sat there.

 

[Peter0124]

Sitting in the unreserved coach with a reservation isn't an issue imo.

 

[M!T]

I guess it depends what type of ticket you have. When I've had the credit card sized tickets there's one for the journey and another for your reservation, so they'd have no way of knowing you had a reserved seat unless you showed them the reservation ticket as well as the journey ticket.

 

[Kryten2340]

It was an e ticket in Google Wallet so seat number was shown.

 

[styles]

I'm not aware of anything in the Conditions of Travel which require a passenger to sit in their reserved seat.

The railway bylaws do enforce the opposite, strictly speaking making it an offence to sit in a reserved seat if you're not the reservation holder (and there is some indication that it is reserved):

Except with permission from an authorised person, no person shall remain in any seat, berth or any part of a train where a notice indicates that it is reserved for a specified ticket holder or holders of tickets of a specific class, except the holder of a valid ticket entitling him to be in that particular place.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/railway-byelaws/railway-byelaws

Frankly it seems like an odd thing for a guard to point out anyway - if it's a quiet service then there'll be plenty of spare seats; if it's a busy service then someone else will take your reserved seat. Loads of passengers make reservations then don't even board, so people sitting in reserved seats is commonplace. It wouldn't make a jot of difference if you got up and moved to your reserved seat, because you'd either find it was already empty, or you'd be ejecting another passenger who would end up in your unreserved seat (or standing, while a standing passenger takes your unreserved seat).

For what it's worth, I do the same thing quite regularly. If I'm travelling standard class and get assigned a "non-table" seat, I've often got work to do on a laptop so I'll stand the rear end of a platform and wait to see where the table spaces are and go grab one. Never had an issue and I do this all the time.

 

[simonw]

I have say in an alternative seat on a,number of occasions it's never been questioned..

 

[asmi9]

It is actually against the advance ticket terms and conditions. Although I wouldn't enforce it as a guard.

4.2 Where applicable, you must travel in the Class and reserved seat(s) shown on the ticket(s).

Advance Tickets Terms and Conditions | National Rail

The terms and conditions for using Advance tickets on National Rail services. Advance tickets are single tickets for selected journeys, available in First Class and Standard Class, offering the best available price for each journey.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

 

[ivorytoast28]

I find many journey planners seat people all close by by default then leaving sizeable space. LNER are ridiculous in that the give every journey a reservation even on anytime tickets leaving loads of reserved but empty seats, or worse still booking a reservation on an operator that doesn't even have them as "your seat is A0 on your swr service".. sure

My general principle sit where you like. If there is plenty of space, try avoid other's reserved seats and be ready to move without fuss if you do sit in one. Unreserved coaches are fair game. I tend to head straight for C on LNER services even if my mandated reservation is next to everyone else crammed in carriage E

 

[AndrewBiro]

This comes up from time-to-time. Personally I think its cheating a bit as your unoccupied reserved seat may deter someone else from sitting in it. I wait until the train has left and then move (but only within the same coach)

 

[Belperpete]

If the guard knows that the train is likely to get busy later on, it makes sense. It cuts down on the scrum with people trying to find free seats. If those with reservations are sitting in free seats, it takes longer for people boarding to find other free seats, or check the reservations to see which aren't actually being used.

For those with open tickets, you are free to use any train covered by that ticket, and likewise any seat covered by that ticket. But if you choose to book an advance, you are required to use the particular train and particular seat that ticket was issued for. You gets what you paid for. If you want flexibility, you need to pay for it.

 

[38Cto15E]

What happens if someone is travelling from say Aberdeen to Newcastle in a seat that says may be reserved later, the when you are travelling through Fife the seat becomes reserved from Edinburgh to London?

 

[Belperpete]

What happens if someone is travelling from say Aberdeen to Newcastle in a seat that says may be reserved later, the when you are travelling through Fife the seat becomes reserved from Edinburgh to London?

This is the bane of modern reservation displays. On a recent journey, I sat in a seat with a green LED unreserved display, only to find after the next station stop it had turned red reserved. I .moved seat to another with a green indication, only to find the same thing happen with that seat after the next stop.

As I understand it, it is an offence to remain seated in a seat that is indicated as reserved. So even if it was indicated as free when you initially sat in it, you have no right to remain in it if the indication changes.

 

[The exile]

As I understand it, it is an offence to remain seated in a seat that is indicated as reserved. So even if it was indicated as free when you initially sat in it, you have no right to remain in it if the indication changes.

The key word is surely “remain” - clearly used in preference to “occupy”. Suggests to me that sitting in (someone else’s) reserved seat isn’t an offence but refusing to move when asked is. It’s also the “common sense” approach.

 

[Mikey C]

This is the bane of modern reservation displays. On a recent journey, I sat in a seat with a green LED unreserved display, only to find after the next station stop it had turned red reserved. I .moved seat to another with a green indication, only to find the same thing happen with that seat after the next stop.

As I understand it, it is an offence to remain seated in a seat that is indicated as reserved. So even if it was indicated as free when you initially sat in it, you have no right to remain in it if the indication changes.

The IETs for example do mention future reservations, e.g.
Free from London Paddington to Reading
Reserved from Reading to Bath Spa

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Feb 2025 ==

I find many journey planners seat people all close by by default then leaving sizeable space. LNER are ridiculous in that the give every journey a reservation even on anytime tickets leaving loads of reserved but empty seats, or worse still booking a reservation on an operator that doesn't even have them as "your seat is A0 on your swr service".. sure

It's really irritating when you're in a hurry too!

I've been at Kings Cross buying an open day return ticket to Stevenage for a LNER departure leaving in a few minutes, and it's annoying to pointlessly have to pick what trains I'll get, and then get seat reservations, especially on a return journey which I'm unlikely to take.

 

[Peter0124]

This is the bane of modern reservation displays. On a recent journey, I sat in a seat with a green LED unreserved display, only to find after the next station stop it had turned red reserved. I .moved seat to another with a green indication, only to find the same thing happen with that seat after the next stop.

As I understand it, it is an offence to remain seated in a seat that is indicated as reserved. So even if it was indicated as free when you initially sat in it, you have no right to remain in it if the indication changes.

The workaround is to just reserve it yourself when you sit there, you can do this via Twitter DM on most TOCs, then nobody can reserve it later and you are stress free.

 

[Joey Beauchamp]

I've never viewed it as antisocial to sit in an empty seat instead of your reserved one. Obviously not moving if requested by a person who has reserved the seat you're actually sitting in would be.

I also think it would be very entitled to sit elsewhere for part of your journey and then move someone out of your reserved seat mid-journey. They could be happily settled having got on at York (for example) and read that the seat is reserved from Edinburgh to London and therefore considered it free.

 

[duffield]

I've never viewed it as antisocial to sit in an empty seat instead of your reserved one. Obviously not moving if requested by a person who has reserved the seat you're actually sitting in would be.

I also think it would be very entitled to sit elsewhere for part of your journey and then move someone out of your reserved seat mid-journey. They could be happily settled having got on at York (for example) and read that the seat is reserved from Edinburgh to London and therefore considered it free.

It's worth considering though that someone on a open ticket could, for example, make a break of journey after having travelled on an earlier service than their reserved one, and then turn up for their reserved seat half way through the reservation's duration and expect to sit there. On balance I don't think that's unreasonable, given the very high price paid for such flexibility.

For example, you're got a reservation on a train from Edinburgh to London, but get to Waverly ahead of schedule and catch a train an hour before yours to Newcastle, have an hour's break there, then join the train with your reserved seat.

Or they could have been given a lift to (say) Wakefield Westgate to pick up the cross-country train they have a seat reserved on from Leeds to Plymouth. Again, a reasonable use of a flexible ticket.

So while it's perfectly reasonable to sit in an apparent "no-show" reserved seat, you should still be prepared to move without complaint if the reservation holder turns up at any point.

 

[Joey Beauchamp]

So while it's perfectly reasonable to sit in an apparent "no-show" reserved seat, you should still be prepared to move without complaint if the reservation holder turns up at any point.

Of course I would move without complaint, no matter how settled I was. In my view it would still be entitled for someone to choose to move to their reserved seat from another part of the train because they decided they didn't like the passengers who had just sat opposite them, or were coming to a particularly scenic part of the route and fancied a window seat, or a reservation went live mid journey.

 

[takno]

The workaround is to just reserve it yourself when you sit there, you can do this via Twitter DM on most TOCs, then nobody can reserve it later and you are stress free.

I struggle to see what's stress-free about setting up a twitter account and getting logged in just so I can carry on sitting in the seat I'm in on a train. Only offering adequate customer service to the users of a deeply-problematic and increasingly niche platform is verging on the scandalous

 

[Lewisham2221]

A train should either be compulsory seat reservations (and enforced as such) or no seat reservations IMO. None of this confusing mish-mash of being able to travel on a given train with or without a reservation, with seats that may be reserved but unoccupied but then may be required by the reservee later in the journey, or unreserved seats that can be reserved by someone else whilst you're already occupying them. Or may be available and may not, but nobody knows because the reservation system isn't working. I'm surprised there aren't more calls for this sort of passenger unfriendly nonsense to be stamped out.

 

[Kite159]

and then turn up for their reserved seat half way through the reservation's duration and expect to sit there.

Sorry but if you are not sitting in your reserved seat from the start of the reservation (using your Edinburgh - London example) and someone boards at Berwick sees it free with no evidence that someone might have simply popped to the toilet, then you have lost it

Same with XC when you get people ignoring their reserved seat to sit elsewhere (at a table) only to get evicted from that seat due to being reserved from Oxford, only to expect the person who was sitting in 'their' seat to move when the train is full & standing.

---

As for LNER, some staff still wish it was Covid time with compulsory reservations and got help you if you felt uncomfortable as someone sitting behind you was coughing their guts up. But agreed when buying a flexible ticket you are given a seat reservation even though you have a choice of trains to catch [i.e. using Avanti from Manchester to London with 3 trains an hour]

 

[Taunton]

I find many journey planners seat people all close by by default then leaving sizeable space.

The French TGV reservation system was certainly like this a while ago. As requests came in it started with assigning coach 1, seat 1, and just filled them in sequence, so you got a whole fully filled coach, then one that was filled down to a certain point, and all the rest empty.

I believe it came from old practices of long ago where French train formations would be varied, with extra spare coaches or not, depending on how busy they thought the service would be. They knew there was some typical balance of say 50% reserved, 50% not, and on the day shunted the formation up accordingly. The timetable actually used to say 'make reservations so we can ensure sufficient accommodation is provided'. Clearly a nonsense nowadays with fixed-formation trains.

Back to the main question and on business travel I specifically avoid any Advance-type ticketing restricting me to just one train because we never know when things will finish, yet our corporate travel agent says it is impossible to avoid giving a reservation. It does seem ludicrous that one side of the railway commercial office has successfully tried to give near-Metro-frequency, turn-up-and-go services for long distance trunk journeys, while the other side of the office has tried to ruin this by pressing for more and more passengers to be restricted to just one train.

 

[geoffk]

I find many journey planners seat people all close by by default then leaving sizeable space. LNER are ridiculous in that the give every journey a reservation even on anytime tickets leaving loads of reserved but empty seats, or worse still booking a reservation on an operator that doesn't even have them as "your seat is A0 on your swr service".. sure

My general principle sit where you like. If there is plenty of space, try avoid other's reserved seats and be ready to move without fuss if you do sit in one. Unreserved coaches are fair game. I tend to head straight for C on LNER services even if my mandated reservation is next to everyone else crammed in carriage E

Grand Central always did the same when I travelled with them. I sat in my booked seat until we left KX then moved forward to a carriage with plenty of space and was never challenged. I knew the train wasn't stopping again until Doncaster and not many boarded there.

 

[MattSGB]

I would sit in my booked seat more often if the stupid TOC booking sites would give me the seats I asked for. For example, I tried to book two 1st class facing individual seats on EMR, booked nearly 12 weeks in advance. It gave me a table of four with aisle seats despite my selection of individual window seats. In fact, I have never successfully been able to reserve individual facing seats in the UK (except for TOCs with a seat picker). XC is even worse, it sometimes gives seats that are not even together and very often books you a "window" seat next to a wall.

 

[RyanOPlasty]

I would sit in my booked seat more often if the stupid TOC booking sites would give me the seats I asked for. For example, I tried to book two 1st class facing individual seats on EMR, booked nearly 12 weeks in advance. It gave me a table of four with aisle seats despite my selection of individual window seats. In fact, I have never successfully been able to reserve individual facing seats in the UK (except for TOCs with a seat picker). XC is even worse, it sometimes gives seats that are not even together and very often books you a "window" seat next to a wall.

I absolutely agree with this, I never seem to get the seat type I have selected, even on a nearly empty train.

I remember a few years ago on Virgin trains booking a very early seat from Rugby to Euston, I got the seat I wanted, but the seat next to me was also reserved. This seemed strange in a nearly empty train, but when I walked down the coach it appeared that everyone sitting in a reserved seat also had an unnocupied reserved seat next to them. I wonder if these were intentional dummy reservations?

 

[lachlan]

I book my tickets for getting to work with LNER as I can get cashback. They always assign a seat and there's no way to turn it off. When I'm rushing for my train back its not worth trying to find the reserved seat for a 30min journey, I just sit anywhere.

This would be resolved if LNER updated their app to add an option to not book seats.

I absolutely agree with this, I never seem to get the seat type I have selected, even on a nearly empty train.

I remember a few years ago on Virgin trains booking a very early seat from Rugby to Euston, I got the seat I wanted, but the seat next to me was also reserved. This seemed strange in a nearly empty train, but when I walked down the coach it appeared that everyone sitting in a reserved seat also had an unnocupied reserved seat next to them. I wonder if these were intentional dummy reservations?

you can reserve a seat with LNER without a ticket but I don't know if you can specify a specific seat. Are there booking sites that let you reserve specific seats without a ticket?

 

[AJDesiro]

This is the bane of modern reservation displays. On a recent journey, I sat in a seat with a green LED unreserved display, only to find after the next station stop it had turned red reserved. I .moved seat to another with a green indication, only to find the same thing happen with that seat after the next stop.

As I understand it, it is an offence to remain seated in a seat that is indicated as reserved. So even if it was indicated as free when you initially sat in it, you have no right to remain in it if the indication changes.

Avanti have come up with quite a clever solution to this. They use cameras (390s) or weight sensors in the seat cushions (80x) to detect whether a seat is occupied. If it is occupied, the seat isn’t available to reserve on the system, so theoretically people shouldn’t be burdened by this.

The best bit about this system is that if someone doesn’t sit in the reserved seat, it reverts to show as available.

The system is still quite new and there are a few teething problems - but it does generally work quite well.

 

[Horizon22]

This is the bane of modern reservation displays. On a recent journey, I sat in a seat with a green LED unreserved display, only to find after the next station stop it had turned red reserved. I .moved seat to another with a green indication, only to find the same thing happen with that seat after the next stop.

On modern stock - like 80x - that would have been amber.

 

[Bletchleyite]

you can reserve a seat with LNER without a ticket but I don't know if you can specify a specific seat.

You can.

Are there booking sites that let you reserve specific seats without a ticket?

LNER, but only for their services.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I would sit in my booked seat more often if the stupid TOC booking sites would give me the seats I asked for.

It seems to be worst in first class, I get exactly the same issue on TPE. I ask for an individual seat, get allocated one at a table for four, then get on the train and find the individual seats are all unreserved.

It’s another reason to use the forum’s ticketing site, although that site’s seat picker also seems to error out quite often with TPE.