Unsatisfactory response from Avanti having been stranded overnight

[gray1404]

Can I please get a definitive answer to the following question:

Which TOC is the station operator for Liverpool Lime Street (mainline, not lower level) responsible for assisting passengers who would otherwise be left stranded due to train delays?

Context: the Avanti service I was travelling on was delayed and arrived after the last service to my final destination had departed. Avanti wrongly sent the relief driver to the wrong station in a taxi. The service was delayed 105 minutes.

I was travelling on a valid itinerary and split tickets through to my final destination. I was denied my right to onward transport or overnight accommodation and told the station was being locked for the night. End result I had to wait for the first onward service the following morning.

I am concerned this will get passed between:
Avanti - the operator that caused the delay
Network Rail - on the basis they manage the station at Liverpool Lime Street
Northern - the principal operator of the station who run the ticket office (are they responsible for assisting stranded passengers?)

As it stands I have received £5.20 (cost of my Stafford to Liverpool advance single. My onward travel was on a free travel pass) in delay repay compensation from Avanti and submitted a customer service complaint to AWC about being stranded which I am awaiting of reply from.

 

[scrapy]

Avanti were ultimately responsible, although any train operator in a position to help should have provided assistance if Avanti were unavailable. Note that Network Rail are not a train operator.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Assuming you had sufficient money for whatever the onward journey was, it would have seemed sensible to me for you to have travelled to your destination at your own expense via a taxi or other transportation and submitted your receipt to the operator responsible for your delay, i.e. Avanti. I suspect the Liverpool Lime Street area has no shortage of taxi apps available with competitive prices.

Of course, you could also have found some reasonably priced accomodation if that was cheaper or more practical than a taxi - and again, submitted the receipt.

Your actions seem to be quite strange (presumably you've waited for 5-6 hours, if not longer, overnight somewhere?) Of course, you are perfectly entitled to do so, and you may not be able to afford the outlay for the above, but I don't think many people would elect to do the same in that situation. If you're using a free travel pass, presumably your final destination can't have been that far away.

If the ticket office was shut, and there was only Network Rail staff around, as per the previous poster, it is unlikely any other train operator would have been reasonably able to assist - at least not meaningfully. A random conductor from a random TOC passing through on their way home late at night is probably not reasonable.

 

[Haywain]

Your actions seem to be quite strange (presumably you've waited for 5-6 hours, if not longer, overnight somewhere?) Of course, you are perfectly entitled to do so, and you may not be able to afford the outlay for the above, but I don't think many people would elect to do the same in that situation. If you're using a free travel pass, presumably your final destination can't have been that far away.

Also, in the circumstances it must have been clear that the connection was going to be missed long before the train arrived at Liverpool, and there must have been a member of Avanti staff on board who could/should have been making appropriate arrangements or ensuring someone was doing so.

 

[mangyiscute]

Just wondering, if the next stage of the journey was a bus, and you miss the bus due to the train running late, are the TOCs under obligation to get you back to where you would've taken the bus to?

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Can I please get a definitive answer to the following question:

Which TOC is the station operator for Liverpool Lime Street (mainline, not lower level) responsible for assisting passengers who would otherwise be left stranded due to train delays?

Context: the Avanti service I was travelling on was delayed and arrived after the last service to my final destination had departed. Avanti wrongly sent the relief driver to the wrong station in a taxi. The service was delayed 105 minutes.

I was travelling on a valid itinerary and split tickets through to my final destination. I was denied my right to onward transport or overnight accommodation and told the station was being locked for the night. End result I had to wait for the first onward service the following morning.

I am concerned this will get passed between:
Avanti - the operator that caused the delay
Network Rail - on the basis they manage the station at Liverpool Lime Street
Northern - the principal operator of the station who run the ticket office (are they responsible for assisting stranded passengers?)

As it stands I have received £5.20 (cost of my Stafford to Liverpool advance single. My onward travel was on a free travel pass) in delay repay compensation from Avanti and submitted a customer service complaint to AWC about being stranded which I am awaiting of reply from.

Actually another point...

I would hope that you submitted a delay repay claim for your entire, complete journey including the overnight delay - otherwise you have submitted a claim that is not accurate and could cause you some issues now if you try to claim that this one was continuous journey with two tickets that was delayed. It wouldn't have affected the overall compensation from Delay Repay, but it may now make your wider complaint a little suspicious as you're now telling them that the journey you claimed for, and confirmed as part of the conditions that it was accurate and reflected your actual journey, was not actually your journey, only part of it.

Combined with your other very unusual action of waiting for hours overnight, I think you need to be very clear and accurate with your correspondence. I don't believe you are actually entitled to anything - you haven't incurred any costs or incurred a loss- if you had - you could have claimed for them.

 

[Haywain]

Just wondering, if the next stage of the journey was a bus, and you miss the bus due to the train running late, are the TOCs under obligation to get you back to where you would've taken the bus to?

No, train companies are responsible for the contracted train journey. When I worked at a major London terminal and trains arrived late after the underground had closed, taxis would be provided for onward travel to all and, while this is good customer service, there is no obligation to do so.

Also, noting a comment above, if the journey was to be completed by bus then Delay Repay would only be applicable to the rail element of the overall journey.

 

[skyhigh]

What was your proposed itinerary, and what was your actual one? What was the free pass you used? Without knowing that it's difficult to say how much you're actually entitled to.

 

[gray1404]

Thank you for your replies. It seems that as I did not care any financial loss, as I waited for the next service several hours later, then my best bet is to raise a customer service complaint rather then go via the small.claims process.

What was your proposed itinerary, and what was your actual one? What was the free pass you used? Without knowing that it's difficult to say how much you're actually entitled to.

Stafford 21.16
Liverpool Lime Street 22.45

Liverpool Lime Street 22.58
Liverpool Central 23.00

Liverpool Central 23.23
Formby 23.53

Actual was arriving Liverpool Lime Street at 00.30 then taking the 08.08 (first train Sunday) from Liverpool Central arriving Formby 08.37

Tickets held:
Advance Single - Stafford to Liverpool Lime Street with Disabled Persons Railcard and a
Merseytravel Disabled Concession Travel Pass from Liverpool Lime Street to Formby

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd walk to Formby over sit in Liverpool all night! Where did you go? It's about 12 miles so you'd at least get in bed for 4-5am.

Edit: ah, if you have a Disabled pass that may not be an option. In that case I'd always keep money for a taxi in my wallet for such emergencies, you won't need it most of the time.

 

[D6130]

I'd walk to Formby over sit in Liverpool all night! Where did you go? It's about 12 miles so you'd at least get in bed for 4-5am.

As the OP is a Disabled Railcard holder, perhaps walking 12 miles to Formby wasn't an option?

 

[scrapy]

Where was the Avanti service when it got delayed? Presumably the delay occured either before the train reached Stafford or at Crewe?

Did you make Avanti staff on board know about your situation, once the delay was known about? If so what was their response?

Did any other train operator you approached refuse you assistance?

I would be tempted to make a complaint to Network Rail and seek a response from the station manager as whilst they weren't obliged to provide onward travel, as the station operator they have the means to find out what assistance they are going to provide you with. It's just basic customer service.

 

[Haywain]

Did any other train operator you approached refuse you assistance?

It sounds like the train arrived in Lime Street late enough that TOC staff (especially public facing) would have been very thin on the ground.

 

[gray1404]

Yes I was directly refused assistance on arrival and told I'd have to make my own way to the destination. The station was also being locked up.

 

[Haywain]

I was directly refused assistance on arrival and told I'd have to make my own way to the destination.

Who refused assistance? Network Rail staff or TOC staff?

 

[gray1404]

TOC staff.

 

[Haywain]

TOC staff.

Which TOC? And did you not approach the staff on the Avanti train that arrived 105 minutes late while you were on it, as it must have been obvious you were not going to be able to travel further? Were other people put in the same situation - it seems unlikely that you were the only person who would have had a problem as a result of the delay?

 

[gray1404]

Avanti. Yes, advised to make staff aware at Liverpool. Other passengers were simply sorting themselves out. I seemed to be the only one trying to get assistance.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Avanti. Yes, advised to make staff aware at Liverpool. Other passengers were simply sorting themselves out. I seemed to be the only one trying to get assistance.

Did you have the means to pay for a taxi?

A formal complaint, including going to the Liverpool Echo, about a vulnerable disabled person being left to sit in central Liverpool overnight, could be the way to go in trying to get a solution (though with no financial outlay I doubt you're going to get any money), but that would also depend on whether you were actually vulnerable or simply chose not to spend the money. If you were genuinely vulnerable it'd probably be a good story, if not you'll probably just end up appearing on the Angry People in Local Newspapers Facebook group. Whether assistance was needed and/or booked might also help or hinder your case; stranding someone who had booked assistance because they weren't able to arrange a cab themselves would be a superb story for the local Press to make a decent point. As, looking at the financial argument, would be a story of someone who spent the night outside Lime St station because otherwise their kids weren't going to eat that week.

 

[Llanigraham]

Did you have the means to pay for a taxi?

A formal complaint, including going to the Liverpool Echo, about a vulnerable disabled person being left to sit in central Liverpool overnight, could be the way to go in trying to get a solution (though with no financial outlay I doubt you're going to get any money), but that would also depend on whether you were actually vulnerable or simply chose not to spend the money. If you were genuinely vulnerable it'd probably be a good story, if not you'll probably just end up appearing on the Angry People in Local Newspapers Facebook group. Whether assistance was needed and/or booked might also help or hinder your case; stranding someone who had booked assistance because they weren't able to arrange a cab themselves would be a superb story for the local Press to make a decent point. As, looking at the financial argument, would be a story of someone who spent the night outside Lime St station because otherwise their kids weren't going to eat that week.

Just because a person has a Disabled Persons Railcard does NOT automatically make them vulnerable. I speak from personal experience.

 

[gray1404]

No I didn't have the means to pay for a taxi. There is also the risk of paying for a taxi and the TOC refusing to pay up. Walking to Formby was not at all possible for me. I would like to not have this one on Facebook haha but I do take your point that the media is an option (once I've gone via customer services and the Rail Ombudsman).

 

[185143]

I had to speak to 4 different members of staff before having transport sorted for me at Lime Street a few weeks ago.

First person was a member of security staff, I think, who didn't know about anything being organised, but directed me towards TOC staff. So thumbs up to them. Second person was a member of Northern staff who appeared near the gateline, which was open so I'm assuming not gateline staff. Pretty much just shrugged their shoulders and said "I just deal with the trains mate" and walked off. Not helpful.

Went to the ticket office, who told me to catch the following Northern service, or a replacement bus over the Chat Moss. I explained that the train doesn't call at my station, and the bus is a completely different route. One suggestion given was to ask the bus driver if they could drop me off! Admittedly they said they didn't know the area at all where I was going to, and assumed it was en route. I was then told to go and ask for the Duty Manager who initially tried to get me to get the train to Warrington and make my own way, but did sort me a taxi out pretty quickly in fairness.

My experience with replacement transport usually is that once you find the right member of staff, they're happy to sort out what you need. You've just got the usually difficult task of finding them!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just because a person has a Disabled Persons Railcard does NOT automatically make them vulnerable. I speak from personal experience.

Which is why I used the word IF.

Though in terms of spending the night on the street of a major city, I'd think a lot more people would be vulnerable than normal. Realistically, anyone not fit enough to be able to run to safety from an assailant would be vulnerable to some extent. Obviously the extent of this would depend on the disability - having a hearing aid is enough to be eligible for the Railcard (which is strange, as criteria for other disabilities are massively stricter). But most wheelchair users, for example, couldn't likely wheel fast enough to escape an assailant.

Certainly I'd consider anyone who was physically unable to (rather than didn't want to) walk to Formby from Liverpool, which is about 13 miles and so a typical day hike distance and mostly very flat, would be vulnerable on those grounds if they had to spend a night on the streets of a major city.

I was using this in a positive way, i.e. that if the OP did consider themselves vulnerable, a newspaper article in the Echo making the railway out to have put them in danger is likely to cause them a lot more embarrassment than "fit middle aged marathon runner* who happens to have a minor hearing problem corrected with a hearing aid had to spend the night in that scabby McDonald's**" or somesuch.

* If I was that fit, bar a taxi, I'd probably run home and would be in bed by 2am!

** These days McRubbish seems to have become more of a hive of antisocial behaviour than the family place it used to be, and I have used the one just round from Lime St a fair bit and observed its decline over the years (the one concerned, just round the corner from Lime St, has been there almost as long as McDs has been in the UK at all), but it is now one of the worst I've ever come across for this, to the point that I wonder if they should seriously consider closing it.

 

[gray1404]

I have submitted the complaint to AWC and shall see what they come back with. I am not optimistic of a meaningful reply or compensation/goodwill gesture given it will be dealt with by First Customer Contact (or whatever they are called these days). I will take to the Rail Ombudsman if needed but again they are not particularly effective.

 

[reb0118]

Out of interest what would the equivalent through Advance fare to Formby have cost you?

 

[gray1404]

Out of interest what would the equivalent through Advance fare to Formby have cost you?

No idea. I didn't check. My ticket was routed AWC Only so through to Formby would have required AWC and Connections.

 

[robbeech]

I have submitted the complaint to AWC and shall see what they come back with. I am not optimistic of a meaningful reply or compensation/goodwill gesture given it will be dealt with by First Customer Contact (or whatever they are called these days). I will take to the Rail Ombudsman if needed but again they are not particularly effective.

I suspect in the first instance they'll not be able to find the journey you took, that little game seems rife within the railway at the moment.

 

[gray1404]

I suspect in the first instance they'll not be able to find the journey you took, that little game seems rife within the railway at the moment.

Hopefully they don't play that game.

 

[L401CJF]

I was in a similar-ish situation a few years ago coming back from Barrow in Furnace. I had advance tickets booked with Avanti from BIF to Liverpool Lime St. Due to high winds and speed restrictions in place on the WCML my train from Lancaster to Wigan turned up well over an hour late and it became clear we wouldn't make our booked service from Wigan to Lime Street (which was also the last one of the evening). The wind had picked up quite suddenly and there was no sign or mention of any expected weather disruption earlier in the day.

My first thought was to look at other possible alternatives changing at Warrington or Crewe and it was clear we wouldn't make those either. No info onboard at all so I walked down and found the train manager who told me to get off at Wigan and taxis would be provided to Lime Street.

My situation is similar because Liverpool wasnt my final destination - I too held a separate ticket for Merseyrail back over to the Wirral.

Staff at Wigan asked everybody where they were going and arranged taxis - however I was told they weren't giving us a taxi to our final destination on the Wirral and would only take us to Liverpool.

Luckily for us it was a Friday night so we made it back to Lime Street just in time for the N1 night bus back over to Bromborough (which doesn't exist now). It didn't set us back cost wise because we worked for Arriva bus so used our staff passes.

I managed to get a full refund via delay repay as we arrived well over 2 hours late, however my complaint regarding providing a taxi to Liverpool only and not our final Merseyrail destination didn't get anywhere at all.

Arguably this is worse than being stranded in your situation because being separated by a river means walking for the very determined isn't even possible (I'm not suggesting you should have walked back to Formby by the way, just going by the replies above suggesting walking is a sensible option). A taxi back over the water on a Friday night toward Bromborough would have cost more than my advance tickets to BIF cost in the first place!

 

[gray1404]

I was in a similar-ish situation a few years ago coming back from Barrow in Furnace. I had advance tickets booked with Avanti from BIF to Liverpool Lime St. Due to high winds and speed restrictions in place on the WCML my train from Lancaster to Wigan turned up well over an hour late and it became clear we wouldn't make our booked service from Wigan to Lime Street (which was also the last one of the evening). The wind had picked up quite suddenly and there was no sign or mention of any expected weather disruption earlier in the day.

My first thought was to look at other possible alternatives changing at Warrington or Crewe and it was clear we wouldn't make those either. No info onboard at all so I walked down and found the train manager who told me to get off at Wigan and taxis would be provided to Lime Street.

My situation is similar because Liverpool wasnt my final destination - I too held a separate ticket for Merseyrail back over to the Wirral.

Staff at Wigan asked everybody where they were going and arranged taxis - however I was told they weren't giving us a taxi to our final destination on the Wirral and would only take us to Liverpool.

Luckily for us it was a Friday night so we made it back to Lime Street just in time for the N1 night bus back over to Bromborough (which doesn't exist now). It didn't set us back cost wise because we worked for Arriva bus so used our staff passes.

I managed to get a full refund via delay repay as we arrived well over 2 hours late, however my complaint regarding providing a taxi to Liverpool only and not our final Merseyrail destination didn't get anywhere at all.

Arguably this is worse than being stranded in your situation because being separated by a river means walking for the very determined isn't even possible (I'm not suggesting you should have walked back to Formby by the way, just going by the replies above suggesting walking is a sensible option). A taxi back over the water on a Friday night toward Bromborough would have cost more than my advance tickets to BIF cost in the first place!

How far did you take your complaint?