Unsatisfactory response from Avanti having been stranded overnight

[L401CJF]

How far did you take your complaint?

No further than their initial reply, I didn't realise at that point there were other options to take it further! I wasn't too fussed though as I'd already got a full refund via delay repay. In hindsight I should have made a bit more fuss.

 

[Parjon]

Stafford 21.16
Liverpool Lime Street 22.45

Liverpool Lime Street 22.58
Liverpool Central 23.00

Liverpool Central 23.23
Formby 23.53

Actual was arriving Liverpool Lime Street at 00.30 then taking the 08.08 (first train Sunday) from Liverpool Central arriving Formby 08.37

Crikey. If that happens again do at least consider posting a message on here at the time. I'm sure someone in the area would help out with a lift or taxi fare rather than see you stuck out overnight.

 

[gray1404]

I have received a reply today by email and I would be grateful of some assistance in drafting my appeal.
Here is what I received: -

• Avanti West Coast Customer Resolutions Centre Freepost AVANTI WEST COAST [email protected] Contact Us Ref: AWC-CR- Dear , Thank you for contacting Avanti West Coast We sincerely apologise for your experience whilst travelling with us and we apologise for the upset and discomfort this caused We apologise that you had to wait for the next train and this was not for a while we can appreciate your frustration In view of your experience, I’d like to offer you 50% off your next journey with Avanti West Coast. This offer is valid for 12 months for Advance tickets on Avanti West Coast routes and can be used up to four times (such as for two passengers to make a return journey). When you’re ready to book, head to our website at www.avantiwestcoast.co.uk. Please note, our discount codes are optimised for use on the main website, so we recommend using this for the best experience, rather than our app. Enter your journey details, making sure it’s on one of our routes – download our route map if you need to check where our services operate. Click Find times and prices, then you can browse for the trains you want to travel on. For your discount to be successfully applied, you’ll need to select an Advance Single ticket for an Avanti West Coast service only. Look out for our logo on the left-hand side, and Advance tickets are usually the first ticket type displayed underneath each service. Once you’ve selected your preferred Advance ticket, click Continue and go through the booking process like normal, until you’re at step 5: review & buy. At the bottom of the page, you’ll find the Discount Code box. Enter your code , and click Add. You’ll see the total price to pay reduce by 50% and you can click the (i) button to see the price breakdown. Some tips and tricks for using your code: Your discount code is valid for a single or return trip, in First or Standard Class, for up to two passengers (both adults and children get a discount) on Advance fares only. No further discounts or promotions can be used at the same time, including Railcards. The code can only be applied to Avanti West Coast services – we can’t discount other operators’ services, so you may wish to book connecting trains, London Underground or PlusBus tickets separately. Advance tickets need to be available in order to use the discount. You can find out which dates are currently released here. Our website will offer you a choice of train tickets and services, so be sure to select a valid ticket for your discount to be applied. If the price does not change when you add your code, it means the ticket isn’t valid (such as an Off-Peak or Anytime ticket, or if you’re travelling with other train operating companies). Once you've used your discount code in full (a maximum of four one-way journeys), it can't be applied again (such as on ticket amendments). If you do choose to book via our app, you’ll be asked for your code at step 1. Click See More for the Add promo code button before searching for tickets. Tickets will show at full price at first but, once you choose an Avanti West Coast Advance Single, you’ll see the lower price on the next screen when you review your order. We look forward to welcoming you on board soon. Yours sincerely, Customer Resolutions Advisor Avanti West Coast

My issues with this reply are as follows:
- No assurances that a reoccurrence will not occur
- They have not looked into what actually happened or addressed this in their email
- No compensation has been offered. A discount off a future journey is not compensation.
- I am a Railcard holder anyway so a 50% discount is nothing when I get 34% off anyway. I would have been happy to accept Rail travel vouchers in all honesty

If I could have some assistance in drafting a reply I will be very grateful. My understanding is I need to write back to them asking for a managerial review before I can take this to the ombudsman.

 

[rg177]

Effectively what's happened is that the agent has offered the most they can offer with immediate line manager authorisation (25% is at their discretion and 75% needs operations manager authorisation).

The whole response is a template. Not a single word of that has been touched by the agent. Its also possible that it's been indexed (all emails/forms get categorised before they're opened up to agents to work on) wrongly so it's been marked as something less serious.

Long and short of it, is that it needs a manager to look at it again rather than an agent trying to hammer their way through a case queue.

The gist is that you need to explain that the delay suffered (and discomfort incurred) was particularly extreme. As you say, you also need reassurances that this has been investigated (they're perfectly capable of phoning/emailing a station for a "please explain" - I used to do it all the time, even if the station comes back with "can't remember", at least it's been done).

I'm sure others will have some better advice on how to draft this - but just some context behind that (very poor) first response.

 

[Haywain]

Further to @rg177's comments above, I think you will need to set out what your expectation is of how this will be satisfactorily resolved.

they're perfectly capable of phoning/emailing a station for a "please explain" - I used to do it all the time, even if the station comes back with "can't remember", at least it's been done

Unfortunately the time lag in this case isn't helping - it's already over a month.

 

[island]

My issues with this reply are as follows:
- No assurances that a reoccurrence will not occur
- They have not looked into what actually happened or addressed this in their email
- No compensation has been offered. A discount off a future journey is not compensation.
- I am a Railcard holder anyway so a 50% discount is nothing when I get 34% off anyway. I would have been happy to accept Rail travel vouchers in all honesty

If I could have some assistance in drafting a reply I will be very grateful. My understanding is I need to write back to them asking for a managerial review before I can take this to the ombudsman.

I think the next steps you will take and the nature of the reply you will wish to send really depend on what you consider a satisfactory resolution would be.

 

[miklcct]

If I were the OP who is unable to walk 12 miles in the middle of night, I would have called the police at that situation at the beginning saying that the TOC is stranding me by locking up the station and refuses transport as contracted.

 

[AlterEgo]

If I were the OP who is unable to walk 12 miles in the middle of night, I would have called the police at that situation at the beginning saying that the TOC is stranding me by locking up the station and refuses transport as contracted.

You’d get a rapid lesson in police resources at least. What do you expect the police to do?

 

[miklcct]

You’d get a rapid lesson in police resources at least. What do you expect the police to do?

I would expect the police to come to the station, and prevent them from locking up the station such that I wouldn't be stranded outside.

 

[D6130]

You’d get a rapid lesson in police resources at least. What do you expect the police to do?

I suppose that if the OP had committed a 'minor breach of the peace' on being told by the Avanti staff that there was nothing they could do for him, he may have been given a cell for the night and a free breakfast before being released without charge!

 

[AlterEgo]

I would expect the police to come to the station, and prevent them from locking up the station such that I wouldn't be stranded outside.

That isn't the police's job and you would be quickly disabused of this.

The police's job is to prevent and detect crime, not force a business to open its premises for you to stay inside, breach of contract or not.

 

[gray1404]

I have received a reply today by email and I would be grateful of some assistance in drafting my appeal.
Here is what I received: -

• Avanti West Coast Customer Resolutions Centre Freepost AVANTI WEST COAST [email protected] Contact Us Ref: AWC-CR- Dear , Thank you for contacting Avanti West Coast We sincerely apologise for your experience whilst travelling with us and we apologise for the upset and discomfort this caused We apologise that you had to wait for the next train and this was not for a while we can appreciate your frustration In view of your experience, I’d like to offer you 50% off your next journey with Avanti West Coast. This offer is valid for 12 months for Advance tickets on Avanti West Coast routes and can be used up to four times (such as for two passengers to make a return journey). When you’re ready to book, head to our website at www.avantiwestcoast.co.uk. Please note, our discount codes are optimised for use on the main website, so we recommend using this for the best experience, rather than our app. Enter your journey details, making sure it’s on one of our routes – download our route map if you need to check where our services operate. Click Find times and prices, then you can browse for the trains you want to travel on. For your discount to be successfully applied, you’ll need to select an Advance Single ticket for an Avanti West Coast service only. Look out for our logo on the left-hand side, and Advance tickets are usually the first ticket type displayed underneath each service. Once you’ve selected your preferred Advance ticket, click Continue and go through the booking process like normal, until you’re at step 5: review & buy. At the bottom of the page, you’ll find the Discount Code box. Enter your code , and click Add. You’ll see the total price to pay reduce by 50% and you can click the (i) button to see the price breakdown. Some tips and tricks for using your code: Your discount code is valid for a single or return trip, in First or Standard Class, for up to two passengers (both adults and children get a discount) on Advance fares only. No further discounts or promotions can be used at the same time, including Railcards. The code can only be applied to Avanti West Coast services – we can’t discount other operators’ services, so you may wish to book connecting trains, London Underground or PlusBus tickets separately. Advance tickets need to be available in order to use the discount. You can find out which dates are currently released here. Our website will offer you a choice of train tickets and services, so be sure to select a valid ticket for your discount to be applied. If the price does not change when you add your code, it means the ticket isn’t valid (such as an Off-Peak or Anytime ticket, or if you’re travelling with other train operating companies). Once you've used your discount code in full (a maximum of four one-way journeys), it can't be applied again (such as on ticket amendments). If you do choose to book via our app, you’ll be asked for your code at step 1. Click See More for the Add promo code button before searching for tickets. Tickets will show at full price at first but, once you choose an Avanti West Coast Advance Single, you’ll see the lower price on the next screen when you review your order. We look forward to welcoming you on board soon. Yours sincerely, Customer Resolutions Advisor Avanti West Coast

My issues with this reply are as follows:
- No assurances that a reoccurrence will not occur
- They have not looked into what actually happened or addressed this in their email
- No compensation has been offered. A discount off a future journey is not compensation.
- I am a Railcard holder anyway so a 50% discount is nothing when I get 34% off anyway. I would have been happy to accept Rail travel vouchers in all honesty

If I could have some assistance in drafting a reply I will be very grateful. My understanding is I need to write back to them asking for a managerial review before I can take this to the ombudsman.

Would it be possible for me to have some help drafting an appeal reply to this. Many thanks.

 

[Haywain]

Would it be possible for me to have some help drafting an appeal reply to this. Many thanks.

Did you not respond to it back in May? If not, you've really left it rather late.

 

[gray1404]

Did you not respond to it back in May? If not, you've really left it rather late.

No I didn't sadly. I've had a lot of personal (medical) stuff going on and not had the headspace.

I know it's late but given I was stranded I would indeed like to appeal. I notice the Ombudsman will access a case upto 12 month later so I would indeed like to appeal to Avanti first.

I'm just not sure where to start in terms of my reply to them given i made them aware of the facts already.

 

[Haywain]

I'm just not sure where to start in terms of my reply to them given i made them aware of the facts already.

You just need to tell them that you are not satisfied with their response and why, and tell them what you do want by way of recompense and resolution. It's simply a matter of putting into letter form what you told us post #33.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

You just need to tell them that you are not satisfied with their response and why, and tell them what you do want by way of recompense and resolution. It's simply a matter of putting into letter form what you told us post #33.

Also, explain (in broad terms - don't breach your own confidentiality!) why your appeal is later than it might have been.

 

[gray1404]

I've drafted the following reply of you guys would be so kind as to look over it for me. Should I take out the bit about rail travel vouchers? I'd be very grateful for any advise or changes.

Dear Sir/Madam

Thank you for your response to my complaint. As per your complaint handling policy I am not happy with the response I have received so I am requesting my complaint is now reviewed by a Manger.

My apologies for the delay in responding which is due to medical reasons.

I am unhappy with response because no assurances that a reoccurrence will not occur have been made, I do not feel you have actually looked into what happened or addressed this in your reply. What I have been sent is clearly from a word bank. The response makes no reference to the situation I was placed in as a disabled passenger being left stranded overnight. Finally no compensation has been offered that takes account the fact I was not afforded my rights and left stranded overnight as a disabled customer. A discount off a future journey is not compensation. I am a Railcard holder anyway so a 50% discount code only redeemable on Avanti is not adequate when I get 34% off anyway as a disabled Railcard holder. I would have been happy to accept a fair monetary amount in compensation given the circumstances or Rail travel vouchers usable on all operators.

I trust you will understand my position and now resolve this to my satisfaction.

 

[AlterEgo]

If you're happy to accept vouchers then there's no reason not to keep that part in, but if you have a specific sum or resolution in mind, it is better to state this rather than letting the TOC guess what will make you happy. "Fair monetary amount" - say what you think is fair.

 

[Titfield]

I dont think you have told them exactly what you want? Specify it in terms of £s.

 

[gray1404]

Thanks guys. I've no idea what amount to ask for to be honest. Would that not come across as cheeky?

Also I would prefer a cheque but am thinking is a TOC more likely to issue RTVs?

 

[AlterEgo]

Thanks guys. I've no idea what amount to ask for to be honest. Would that not come across as cheeky?

Also I would prefer a cheque but am thinking is a TOC more likely to issue RTVs?

RTVs are definitely easier to authorise for complaint handlers. I wouldn't worry about being cheeky. I used to handle these cases all the time and the easiest ones where were the customer asked for a specific resolution.

 

[gray1404]

Can you guys help me worn out an amount to ask for and how to word it?

If I am just as likely to get a cheque as an RTV then I'll ask for a cheque. But if I'm shooting myself in the foot I'll stick with RTVs. Thoughts?

As this is Avanti we're dealing with I am not really hopeful of a decent outcome.

Thanks again for your help guys.

 

[Haywain]

What I have been sent is clearly from a word bank.

You should take this line out - it does nothing to help your case.

 

[rg177]

Team Managers should have the ability to issue eVouchers - as I can remember having a colleague just Teams me a code to pass onto a customer when I worked in the same office.

RTVs were never brought up once. Cheques can be issued as well - I've had those authorised before and they're fairly simple for an agent to issue.

 

[Titfield]

Can you guys help me worn out an amount to ask for and how to word it?

If I am just as likely to get a cheque as an RTV then I'll ask for a cheque. But if I'm shooting myself in the foot I'll stick with RTVs. Thoughts?

As this is Avanti we're dealing with I am not really hopeful of a decent outcome.

Thanks again for your help guys.

Normally I would say go for 100% of the ticket value plus reimbursement of expenses incurred but if I have understood you correctly the fare paid was very low and there were no additional expenses.

So perhaps an amount to cover the costs that may have been incurred. How about £120 total for a hotel room and breakfast plus an amount for the inconvenience?

 

[AlterEgo]

Normally I would say go for 100% of the ticket value plus reimbursement of expenses incurred but if I have understood you correctly the fare paid was very low and there were no additional expenses.

So perhaps an amount to cover the costs that may have been incurred. How about £120 total for a hotel room and breakfast plus an amount for the inconvenience?

The OP chose not to incur any expenses and hence can't claim for them; they opted not to get their own accommodation nor to take a taxi back home in lieu of the industry's contracted obligations to assist, but rather waited out the delay until service restarted.

This is why the easiest and lowest friction option in these circumstances is to simply take the 12 mile taxi home, get a receipt, and claim the money back (plus any delay repay due).

 

[Titfield]

The OP chose not to incur any expenses and hence can't claim for them; they opted not to get their own accommodation nor to take a taxi back home in lieu of the industry's contracted obligations to assist, but rather waited out the delay until service restarted.

This is why the easiest and lowest friction option in these circumstances is to simply take the 12 mile taxi home, get a receipt, and claim the money back (plus any delay repay due).

Yes I appreciate that the OP made that choice but that decision then does mean that either the OP does not seek any compensation (other than the fare paid) or asks for a gesture of goodwill to reflect the inconvenience and discomfort. To give the OP a starting point I was suggesting £120.

I agree that in a situation such as this any operator would take the view that it would be reasonable for a customer to resolve the situation for themselves and then make a claim after the event. If there are no staff on site there are no staff.

The OP commented in their post that the TOC hasnt addressed 3 issues:

1. No offer of compensation. Hence my suggestion above. If you dont ask you dont get. You can of course point out that a discount voucher is virtually meaningless for the reasons he has given on the forum. What is the worst that can happen. They say no to £120.
2. No reassurance that it wont happen again in the future. No TOC is going to give a blanket assurance that there wont be a recurrence because that is placing themselves at the mercy of the gods. As we all no sometimes the most bizarre or unforeseen events happen.
3, They dont appear to have investigated. You cant compel a TOC to investigate and in any case it may have been a futile exercise as those in the wrong rarely fess up or simply state they have no recollection. Given the passage of time an investigation may be pointless. What would be better is if the TOC reviewed their process to minimise the chances of this happening again.

 

[Falcon1200]

I am requesting my complaint is now reviewed by a Manger.

Maybe spelt right in your actual reply but if not, 'Manger' should be 'Manager'! Good luck with your follow-up complaint.

 

[John R]

No I didn't have the means to pay for a taxi. There is also the risk of paying for a taxi and the TOC refusing to pay up. Walking to Formby was not at all possible for me. I would like to not have this one on Facebook haha but I do take your point that the media is an option (once I've gone via customer services and the Rail Ombudsman).

Setting aside the main thrust of the discussion, and whether the railway was in the wrong not to help you, we’ve had a couple of cases over the years where people have found themselves stranded with no means of continuing their journey. It’s generally a good life skill to ensure you can get yourself out of a hole regardless of whose fault it is. (Which usually means having a means of payment available). I notice that you say that everyone else was able to sort themselves out, and presumably would have claimed back any costs incurred with Avanti. You might like to think about why you were the outlier left at the station, and what you can do to ensure it doesn’t happen again.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Setting aside the main thrust of the discussion, and whether the railway was in the wrong not to help you, we’ve had a couple of cases over the years where people have found themselves stranded with no means of continuing their journey. It’s generally a good life skill to ensure you can get yourself out of a hole regardless of whose fault it is. (Which usually means having a means of payment available). I notice that you say that everyone else was able to sort themselves out, and presumably would have claimed back any costs incurred with Avanti. You might like to think about why you were the outlier left at the station, and what you can do to ensure it doesn’t happen again.

Sadly not everyone has the means to be able to do this. It's a sad reflection on the railways that you have to do this. That they treat their customers with such distain that they are expected to have their own contingencies in place says all you need to know about the railway attitude to its passengers. There are very many people who haven't got a car & haven't any surplus income and can't get a credit card. The railway shouldn't treat them with contempt.