Unverified proposals for Cl 222 Meridians on Waterloo-Exeter (and maybe beyond)

[Nozzacook]

HST's aren't route cleared for Guildford - Redhill, they're only cleared (courtesy of the defunct VXC) Reading - Guildford - Portsmouth - Eastleigh/Southampton and even then they need to be SSL coaches, LSL are banned from the former SR.

Aren't a lot of the FGW fleet SSL as they have run into Waterloo from Basingstoke during the Reading station disruption.

 

[Bigfoot]

Aren't a lot of the FGW fleet SSL as they have run into Waterloo from Basingstoke during the Reading station disruption.

They are yes. Plus the restrictions on running into Waterloo ie speeds and which lines/platforms are quite complicated. They are visiting Waterloo again soon.

 

[D6975]

Also as a side note, interestingly the article says that FGW are looking at putting shortened HSTs on longer rural services to boost capacity. I wonder what these could be? Brighton-Bristol? Portsmouth-Cardiff? Weymouth-Bristol?

Exeter - Plymouth/Plymouth - Penzance stoppers perhaps. These can get very crowded in the summer. Having already tried out HSTs to Weymouth last summer, that's a possibility as you say.

 

[Rapidash]

I would really hope that should this come to pass, that the units are reduced in number to increase length. The XC Voyagers are regularly full up, even out of the 'season' (Which seems to grow in length each year!) I've not used this particular type of Voyager - do they have the same problems as the XC ones?

 

[CP165]

I would really hope that should this come to pass, that the units are reduced in number to increase length. The XC Voyagers are regularly full up, even out of the 'season' (Which seems to grow in length each year!) I've not used this particular type of Voyager - do they have the same problems as the XC ones?

They're a lot more pleasant to travel on. Various bits of equipment were placed under the floor or in the roof when built so it's a bit more spacious inside, the interior design is much better and I've never experienced any of the notorious 'Voyager smells' on them either.

That said, from a passengers perspective they're still inferior to a 180 or a MK3 in my opinion.

 

[nuneatonmark]

What about using Meridians on Nottingham to Cardiff, Brum to Stansted and Liverpool to Norwich when free'd up?

 

[David Goddard]

What about using Meridians on Nottingham to Cardiff, Brum to Stansted and Liverpool to Norwich when free'd up?

A very logical use for them, but apart from the Nottingham to Cardiff services their abilities will be wasted. Scotland would be a better home

 

[Qwerty133]

A very logical use for them, but apart from the Nottingham to Cardiff services their abilities will be wasted. Scotland would be a better home

disagree, the acceleration will be useful on all the routes, and they would bring additional capacity to 2 of those routes, as well significantly improving the quality, and improving reliability.

 

[nottsnurse]

disagree, the acceleration will be useful on all the routes, and they would bring additional capacity to 2 of those routes, as well significantly improving the quality, and improving reliability.

Aren't there speed restrictions on the Class 222 between Ely and Norwich which would cause pathing issues with other services?

 

[richw]

Exeter - Plymouth/Plymouth - Penzance stoppers perhaps. These can get very crowded in the summer. Having already tried out HSTs to Weymouth last summer, that's a possibility as you say.

Last summer, in Saturdays at least there was a HST working the penzance to plymouth diagram.

I caught it frequently back from plymouth to cornwall as it followed a service from London about 20 minutes behind, so all the crowds got on the preceding service, leaving the stopper running almost empty with the London service being sardine canned.

 

[47802]

Exeter - Plymouth/Plymouth - Penzance stoppers perhaps. These can get very crowded in the summer. Having already tried out HSTs to Weymouth last summer, that's a possibility as you say.

Yes some on wnxx seem to be suggesting Bristol - Plymouth/Penzance semi fasts for shortened HST's, along with 19 x 9 IEP Bi-Modes for the West Country but these woukd be built before the all electric units and used initially on London - Bristol/Cardiff/Swansea services to mitigate GW Electrification delays. They could then move to the West Country when GW electrification is completed and the all electric units arrive, possibly after the East coast sets.

One of the potential problems for the 222's is the fact they wont be available until 2021 so there are not really an option to replace a non compliant train.

 

[class26]

What about using Meridians on Nottingham to Cardiff, Brum to Stansted and Liverpool to Norwich when free'd up?

They cannot use the differential speeds so between Ely and Norwich there would be some severe restrictions resulting in that more time was lost overall than gained through better acceleration

 

[TheWalrus]

Some 222s could be used for London-Exeter semi-fasts until more SETs are available?

 

[The Ham]

Yes some on wnxx seem to be suggesting Bristol - Plymouth/Penzance semi fasts for shortened HST's, along with 19 x 9 IEP Bi-Modes for the West Country but these woukd be built before the all electric units and used initially on Bristol/Cardiff/Swansea services to mitigate GW Electrification delays. They could then move to the West Country when GW electrification is completed and the all electric units arrive, possibly after the East coast sets.

That would seem a sensible solution, presumably more HST's in the short term to increase capacity over the day (I.e. more than 9 services a day). Followed by an increase in capacity on each train a few years later when the class 800's start to run.

One of the potential problems for the 222's is the fact they wont be available until 2021 so there are not really an option to replace a non compliant train.

Which also means, I assume, that they would also be unhelpful in increasing capacity for XC.

 

[paulclass43]

Ah, Wessex Trains lives!

The combined franchise sounds like a good idea. Lets see if they can find someone better than NatEx to run it. Someone who isnt going to spit their dummy out and hand the keys back if things don't go their way.

Would there actually be any advantage other then a capacity boost from using 222's between Waterloo and Exeter? Am I right in saying that the linespeed on the West of England Mainline is only 90mph, just right for 159's, but would underutilise the 222's?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

How many services do either XC or Virgin run that are always two Voyagers coupled together? If there's enough then that could be a possibility otherwise you'd end up with a microfleet

 

[jimm]

Would there actually be any advantage other then a capacity boost from using 222's between Waterloo and Exeter? Am I right in saying that the linespeed on the West of England Mainline is only 90mph, just right for 159's, but would underutilise the 222's?

Not this again. How much of the time do you actually think 22xs are running at 125mph, anywhere in the country? Off the core WCML route, it's actually precious little. For example, it's all of 15 months since 222s were first able to reach 125 on any part of the MML.

A key feature of the design - and the 180s - is lots of power for rapid acceleration and climbing, which would come in very handy west of Salisbury, where the gradient profile looks like a rollercoaster.

And there is nothing stopping the speed limit on the route being raised where this is feasible if there is rolling stock that can exploit it, but doing so would be pretty pointless at the moment, wouldn't it?

Same as renewing track between Ely and Norwich can also be done, if needed, to allow use of 22xs at higher speeds.

 

[paulclass43]

Not this again. How much of the time do you actually think 22xs are running at 125mph, anywhere in the country? Off the core WCML route, it's actually precious little. For example, it's all of 15 months since 222s were first able to reach 125 on any part of the MML.

A key feature of the design - and the 180s - is lots of power for rapid acceleration and climbing, which would come in very handy west of Salisbury, where the gradient profile looks like a rollercoaster.

And there is nothing stopping the speed limit on the route being raised where this is feasible if there is rolling stock that can exploit it, but doing so would be pretty pointless at the moment, wouldn't it?

Same as renewing track between Ely and Norwich can also be done, if needed, to allow use of 22xs at higher speeds.

Alright don't get ya knick kicks in a twist. And you expect a route upgrade? That's highly unlikely. And while I'm sure the extra power would be good on gradients. It isn't going to make up for a 35mph shortfall.

 

[The Ham]

How many services do either XC or Virgin run that are always two Voyagers coupled together? If there's enough then that could be a possibility otherwise you'd end up with a microfleet

As I was remained, when I suggested that ICWC take them to free up their 221's to be used by XC, that as the 222's don't tilt so would be no good for ICWC.

XC maybe more interested in EMU's for their next franchise than more 22x's.

 

[jimm]

Alright don't get ya knick kicks in a twist. And you expect a route upgrade? That's highly unlikely. And while I'm sure the extra power would be good on gradients. It isn't going to make up for a 35mph shortfall.

You don't have to carry out some comprehensive scheme on an entire route to make improvements. You can renew bit by bit, rather like the work that has gradually brought parts of the MML up to the condition where 125mph is now possible - a very long time after 125mph-capable trains were first used on that route in the shape of HSTs in the 1980s. HSTs, I might add, that used their better power and acceleration to improve on the journey times achieved by lumbering Class 45s before work to increase speed limits could make much headway.

And you really need to get over this simplistic idea that 125mph trains are running at that speed all the time - they aren't and large part of the routes they work simply cannot be made suitable for such speeds - you just try finding any 125mph sections of track in the Great Western area off the core Paddington-Bristol route, for example - so using words like 'shortfall' is just silly.

 

[3141]

HST's aren't route cleared for Guildford - Redhill, they're only cleared (courtesy of the defunct VXC) Reading - Guildford - Portsmouth - Eastleigh/Southampton and even then they need to be SSL coaches, LSL are banned from the former SR.

Could we have an explanation of LSL and SSL?

 

[swt_passenger]

Could we have an explanation of LSL and SSL?

The bogies are slightly different, the abbreviations refer to a component known as the Swing Link, and they come in Long or Short lengths.

Bogies with Long Swing Links (LSL) can foul the third rail with extreme movement.

Photo of SSL bogie below.

 

[ExRes]

I wonder if the 222s could have redundant 442 coaches inserted to give more capacity

 

[ainsworth74]

Listen 442s have their own thread for hair brained schemes so take that one over there and leave this thread alone!

 

[ExRes]

Sorry, I was feeling a tad sorry for the 442 fraternity as they were missing out on this thread

 

[The Ham]

I wonder if the 222s could have redundant 442 coaches inserted to give more capacity

If we're going to do that then why not modify the 442 coaches to have pantographs to make the 222's bi modal!

 

[jopsuk]

(start utter wibble) rebuild some of the driving cars into trailers, reforming the fleet as longer (end wibble)

(currently 143 vehicles- 54 driving and 83 intermediate)

 

[TheWalrus]

Why are people obsessed with putting 222s on Liverpool-Norwich?

 

[backontrack]

Originally posted by 21C101 on this thread: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=112532

They [SWT] may also be eyeing up taking over the Barnstaple line and running through Waterloo - Barnstaple/ Waterloo - Okehampton Services, which would connect at Barnstaple station forecourt with the Stagecoach Run 20 minute interval buses to Ilfracombe/Westward Ho/Appledore and 10 minute interval services to Bideford and Braunton, enabling through ticketing and promotion of such journeys and connect at Okehampton with Stagecoach buses to Bude.

Could 222s run this service if it ever happened?

 

[21C101]

Originally posted by 21C101 on this thread: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=112532



Could 222s run this service if it ever happened?

As most of them have four or five cars, I don't see why not. Barnstaple Station platform is long enough for a 4/5 car 222, as I think is Crediton, and I'm pretty sure they have Selective Door operation for use at Midland Main line stations with short platforms. It may be that in any case they reform some of them into three car units.