Up to 68 New Northern & Jubilee Line trains sought

[LLivery]

Just popped onto TfL's website and I find that they are going to issue a tender for up to 50 new Northern Line trains and 18 new Jubilee Line stock next year. Would TfL really need 50 extra trains to increase frequency on the Northern and cover the Battersea extension? Seems a bit much to me.

Will this be the first time the deep-level lines will have two fleets at the same time when one isn't being replaced?

 

[starrymarkb]

I suspect the tender will be worded in such a way that anything that isn't a clone of 1995/1996 stock will be excluded. Jubilee has the Platform Edge Doors, and Northern Line is on a full service package from Alstom. So expect a follow on batch of 1995/1996 stock. The order is big enough to make it worth Alstom's while to reactivate the production lines in Spain.

 

[swt_passenger]

They also intend to split the Northern line into two operationally separate routes, with all Bank trains to Morden, and all Charing Cross trains to Battersea. Someone will know which of the northern branches will go with each route, but basically the Camden Town junctions become redundant on a day to day basis. That allows a theoretical 30 tph on both routes all the way to the ends.

I've also heard somewhere (maybe District Daves forum) that a few of the new trains might be ordered to allow some existing stock to be cascaded to the Bakerloo.

 

[Nym]

Again though comes the problem of fitting extra trains on the Bakerloo Line.

There isn't any extra space at London Road, 31O/S is in routine use at Stonebridge Park with 45rd about to be taken OOU, Elephant and Castle has three out stabled every night and Queen's Park is also full.

Then there's the small matter of loading gauge around Piccadilly Circus and London Road, the 95TS and 96TS has longer cars than the 72TS/67TS. I honestly doubt they'd fit into LRD.

If a longer term and more expensive strategy was employed, incorporating the Croxley Rail Link; additional depot / stabling could be gotten at Croxley / Watford on the site of the old depot. Simply re-fit trainstops and renew the 4th centre bonded rail. (But that is unlikely to happen as well...)

 

[Busaholic]

They also intend to split the Northern line into two operationally separate routes, with all Bank trains to Morden, and all Charing Cross trains to Battersea. Someone will know which of the northern branches will go with each route, but basically the Camden Town junctions become redundant on a day to day basis. That allows a theoretical 30 tph on both routes all the way to the ends.

I've also heard somewhere (maybe District Daves forum) that a few of the new trains might be ordered to allow some existing stock to be cascaded to the Bakerloo.

Believe the current plan is High Barnet via Bank and Edgware via Charing Cross.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Just popped onto TfL's website and I find that they are going to issue a tender for up to 50 new Northern Line trains and 18 new Jubilee Line stock next year. Would TfL really need 50 extra trains to increase frequency on the Northern and cover the Battersea extension? Seems a bit much to me.

Will this be the first time the deep-level lines will have two fleets at the same time when one isn't being replaced?

Can't see how 50 EXTRA trains could physically fit onto Northern Line without a stop in the tunnel immediately before each station on every single journey, even if the signalling woulld allow it. Now, without pesky passengers....

 

[Yew]

Perhaps its a mistake in the journalisim, and 50 carriages are being ordered instead? A bit like how the DFT spins a route getting an extra 153 service as 'hundereds of extra seats'

 

[Tetchytyke]

Fifty cars is about eight trains, so that'd make much more sense.

 

[user15681]

The important bit is the up to 50 new trains and up to 18. TfL have estimated the Northern line will actually only need 24 and the Jubilee 11.

 

[Domh245]

I suppose that stabling will become less of a problem on the N/J lines, seeing as there will be the new night tube that will be taking units out of the depot at night and putting them back in during the day. But even then, 50 trains for the northern does seem a bit steep, it makes you wonder how it manages to cope currently!

 

[SpacePhoenix]

I suspect the tender will be worded in such a way that anything that isn't a clone of 1995/1996 stock will be excluded. Jubilee has the Platform Edge Doors, and Northern Line is on a full service package from Alstom. So expect a follow on batch of 1995/1996 stock. The order is big enough to make it worth Alstom's while to reactivate the production lines in Spain.

Would a follow on build of 95/96 stock be allowed with whatever changes there have been to the regs since then: disability access regs, crash regs, etc?

 

[Domh245]

Disability wise, the 95/96Ts are already compliant - no need to worry about any compliant toilets either! As for the crash regs - I am pretty certain that a train that has got a design speed of 62mph won't need to comply with them. I suspect that the rules are a fair bit different for metro stock

 

[Nym]

Stabling wise, there is quite a lot of space left over on the line, and units can be outstabled in some of the new locations and/or stations.

For example, three trains will be able to be stabled at Battersea. There's space to expand Edgware Sidings, possibly at High Barnet but it's covering over grass, Morden might be a bit more of a challenge though.

 

[JaJaWa]

LU to source additional Tube trains
18 August 2014
London Underground begins search to secure additional Jubilee and Northern line trains.
"By combining the orders for new trains for two lines we will ensure that their delivery represents value for money for our customers."
Gareth Powell
Director of Strategy & Service Development for London Underground
• Additional trains and modern signalling system will boost capacity, supporting London's growing population and economy.
• Combined orders will ensure value for money for customers.
London Underground (LU) will today begin the search for a supplier to provide additional trains for the Jubilee and Northern lines.
The new trains will enable greater frequencies on the Jubilee and Northern lines and support Tube services for the proposed Northern line extension from Kennington to Battersea.
LU has placed a notice with the Official Journal of the European Union (OJEU) seeking expressions of interest to supply new trains for the Jubilee and Northern lines.*
A formal Invitation to Tender is expected to be issued in early 2015.
Meeting the challenge
Alongside new modern signalling systems, the additional trains will help LU meet the challenge of London's growing population - set to increase from 8.2m today to around 10m by 2030 - by increasing capacity in central London on the Jubilee line by 13% and on the Northern line by 25 per cent. *
Gareth Powell, Director of Strategy & Service Development for London Underground said: 'When these extra trains are in service by 2021 central London customers will benefit from at least 30 trains per hour on the Northern line and at least 34 trains per hour on the Jubilee line during peak times.* By combining the orders for new trains for two lines we will ensure that their delivery represents value for money for our customers.' *
The new trains are part of a huge programme of modernisation being carried out by London Underground, with major stations, trains, track and signalling being modernised or replaced to provide more capacity for a growing city.
The line upgrades are at the core of LU's investment programme, which will deliver more than 30% increase in capacity. The upgrade programme is being delivered over the coming years, with work on upgrades to the Northern, Circle, District, Hammersmith & City and Metropolitan lines well underway.* *
Redevelopment work to increase capacity at key stations and make them step-free, is underway at a number of stations including Victoria, Tottenham Court Road and Bond Street and more than half of London Underground's 270 stations have now been modernised or refurbished to make them brighter and easier to use, with improvements such as tactile strips and better CCTV and help points, electronic information displays in ticket halls and on platforms, and improved seating and lighting.


The programme for additional trains on the Jubilee and Northern lines will see approximately:
• Up to 18 trains for the Jubilee line.
• Up to 50 trains for the Northern line - five for the proposed Northern line extension and 45 to increase frequencies on the rest of the line
A public inquiry to consider our Transport and Works Act Order application to extend the Northern line ran from 19 November to 20 December 2013 and was conducted by an independent Inspector.* A decision on the Order is anticipated in autumn this year.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2014/august/lu-to-source-additional-tube-trains

 

[Busaholic]

Stabling wise, there is quite a lot of space left over on the line, and units can be outstabled in some of the new locations and/or stations.

For example, three trains will be able to be stabled at Battersea. There's space to expand Edgware Sidings, possibly at High Barnet but it's covering over grass, Morden might be a bit more of a challenge though.

If they extended the line out of Edgware towards Bushey Heath they might find a suitable space at somewhere like Aldenham to build a large-enough depot. Oh, sorry, deja vu all over again.

If the line is to be split in two as per current official thinking and with the increased service there is going to be a problem with stabling trains on the Barnet to Morden line,with the depot at the extreme southern end and little or no room for expansion, unless trains out of service are to continue to be allowed to crossover at Camden Town, which would mean the points could not be locked out of use, could they?

 

[Nym]

If they extended the line out of Edgware towards Bushey Heath they might find a suitable space at somewhere like Aldenham to build a large-enough depot. Oh, sorry, deja vu all over again.

If the line is to be split in two as per current official thinking and with the increased service there is going to be a problem with stabling trains on the Barnet to Morden line,with the depot at the extreme southern end and little or no room for expansion, unless trains out of service are to continue to be allowed to crossover at Camden Town, which would mean the points could not be locked out of use, could they?

One would probably not want to lock the points out of use at Camden Town as depot functions are not all shared (TBTC testing for example). Remember that towards Barnet there is Highgate and Barnet Sidings, where toward Edgware there is only Golders Green Depot and Edgware Sidings (with no access to Morden Depot is the line is split).

Edgware sidings can grow reasonably easily, some extra land to the SW of Highgate could be baught up to double side the sidings there.

More concerning is the lack of space on the Jubilee Line for stabling, Neasden is pretty much at capacity for how much it can get out in a morning, I don't think it would be very popular expanding Stanmore sidings into the car park and Stratford Market is pretty caged in.

 

[Busaholic]

I'm even more fascinated as to how an extra 45 trains could fit onto the existing Northern Line, even allowing for a few spare sets amongst them. If the increase in the number of trains is greater in percentage terms than the increase in tph then the journey time end-to-end must also have increased (quite significantly if my reading of these figures is correct) unless time spent at the termini also increases, which is obviously not feasible. An alternative scenario is that Battersea is only a staging point to another destination, first Clapham Junction then perhaps Roehampton and beyond, but, if so, why the order now?

 

[Manchester77]

More concerning is the lack of space on the Jubilee Line for stabling, Neasden is pretty much at capacity for how much it can get out in a morning, I don't think it would be very popular expanding Stanmore sidings into the car park and Stratford Market is pretty caged in.

Could Charing X be utilised, looking at carto metro it has quite long overrun tunnels which should hold a fair few trains.

 

[Nym]

I'm even more fascinated as to how an extra 45 trains could fit onto the existing Northern Line, even allowing for a few spare sets amongst them. If the increase in the number of trains is greater in percentage terms than the increase in tph then the journey time end-to-end must also have increased (quite significantly if my reading of these figures is correct) unless time spent at the termini also increases, which is obviously not feasible. An alternative scenario is that Battersea is only a staging point to another destination, first Clapham Junction then perhaps Roehampton and beyond, but, if so, why the order now?

Or perhaps another branch or extension elsewhere that we don't know about yet?

Could Charing X be utilised, looking at carto metro it has quite long overrun tunnels which should hold a fair few trains.

I'm not too sure on just how long they are, I suspect the maximum you could stable in there would be four or five in any respect, as it's not best practice to need to walk through a train to get to your train when taking it out in a morning, and you'll need to cycle through 'empty roads' for cleaning purposes unless you can do it all in one day.
If one where to clean the roads during the day though you'd need some mods to the power system around Green Park and Charring Cross to maintain service, proberbly needing to install more rectifiers at Green Park, or long DC feeders from Charring Cross.

Having a quick look at the scale plan, there are only four stabling points at Charring Cross where TBTC will allow a unit to stable. However, there is the overlap between the platform and the trap points that might be able to have an additional unit stable there. I doubt it would be possible to do though.

 

[Busaholic]

Charing Cross (Jubilee Line platforms and tunnel) is kept operational for emergencies and is still used several times a year, I believe. Stabling there would probably be frowned upon, except in an emergency. It would be better to restore a service there, if only in peaks: much more useful than Westminster!

On the possibility of other Northern Line extensions, Sutton would benefit far more from this than the Tramlink branch being promoted by politicians including Boris and which might well lead more Sutton/St Helier residents to shop in Wimbledon or Croydon rather than Sutton, thus negating its primary purpose.

 

[Chris125]

Or perhaps another branch or extension elsewhere that we don't know about yet?

If it's so far away that we don't know about it yet it's unlikely to be relevant to this order - the obvious explanation is that splitting the two branches and maximising frequencies with ATO could need up to a 50% increase in the train fleet, which would seem perfectly possible.

Chris

 

[Busaholic]

If it's so far away that we don't know about it yet it's unlikely to be relevant to this order - the obvious explanation is that splitting the two branches and maximising frequencies with ATO could need up to a 50% increase in the train fleet, which would seem perfectly possible.

Chris

But 33% increase in frequency doesn't equate with 50% increase in train fleet unless the trains are expected to run slower (perhaps TfL are having trouble getting enough electricity generated). I suspect these figures may be amended 'for clarification' at some stage: the words 'up to' are slippery in the extreme.

 

[Nym]

But 33% increase in frequency doesn't equate with 50% increase in train fleet unless the trains are expected to run slower (perhaps TfL are having trouble getting enough electricity generated). I suspect these figures may be amended 'for clarification' at some stage: the words 'up to' are slippery in the extreme.

Just as a bit of a point of pedantry...

LU doesn't really generate electricity any more since Lots Road closed, Greenwich remains open and is in use when required but has no chance of making a dent into the power requirements.

The Northern Line is already fed by a lot of different LU intakes that have spare capacity. The Northern Line Extension and Northern Line Upgrade are both very much on the radar for power distribution. Finding space in the rectifiers might be more of a challenge though.

The true reason for ordering more stock than is actually required could be;

• Splitting the fleet, you'll naturally need more maintenance spares.
• The fleet wasn't big enough to start with and the heavy maintenance cycles will mean taking too much out of service.

Or pick your own sensible answer?

 

[Busaholic]

Just as a bit of a point of pedantry...

LU doesn't really generate electricity any more since Lots Road closed, Greenwich remains open and is in use when required but has no chance of making a dent into the power requirements.

The Northern Line is already fed by a lot of different LU intakes that have spare capacity. The Northern Line Extension and Northern Line Upgrade are both very much on the radar for power distribution. Finding space in the rectifiers might be more of a challenge though.

The true reason for ordering more stock than is actually required could be;

• Splitting the fleet, you'll naturally need more maintenance spares.
• The fleet wasn't big enough to start with and the heavy maintenance cycles will mean taking too much out of service.

Or pick your own sensible answer?

Sorry, still being relatively new to this forum I forgot that what is written comes over differently from the exact same words said conversationally, when the fact I was being a bit tongue=in=cheek might have been more obvious.

Absolutely agree that if you're creating two lines out of one you'll need more spares, because presumably the trains will not be inter-operable. Better keep it quiet from 'the North is not getting a fair deal' lot that an extra six or so new trains may be being provided purely on these grounds!

Where I think all this will fall down, as I wrote on the Northern Line Battersea extension thread, admittedly without gaining much , or indeed any, support, is in the splitting decision itself which I don't believe any Mayor would agree to for political reasons. However, if I am wrong and it goes ahead, with all Edgware to Battersea trains via Charing Cross on one line and all High Barnet to Morden trains via Bank on the other, then Camden Town will become even more of a pinchpoint than at present, unless more passengers can be persuaded to swap trains at Euston, which is hardly a satisfactory solution. With 32 tph on both lines in the central section, to maintain that schedule each train coming to a stop at Camden Town in the peak must have disgorged its passengers, picked up a new load, be on its way and been replaced by another train in just under two minutes EACH AND EVERY TIME. If this proves impossible to manage then 32 tph goes out of the window on any part of the two lines as, unlike buses, the trains can't leapfrog each other. Five trains per hour taking one minute longer each would bring the frequency down to 29tph and these are hardly inordinate delays, even after the inevitable teething problems of the first few months.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Above, inter-operability I was saying not possible on a daily basis because of computers, maps in carriages,etc

 

[Chris125]

I don't believe splitting the Northern Line is being considered without a major capacity upgrade at Camden Town, as you rightly point out it simply wouldn't cope otherwise.

Chris

 

[Nym]

Camden Town is the major pinch point on this line, and shoveling people onto Euston to change simply wouldn't work. For one Euston is in just as much trouble visa vie capacity issues, and will soon be getting it's own re-built (See HS2). For another, people would simply ignore it and change at Camden Town anyway.

The NLU will be looking into re-building Camden Town as part of any plan to go beyond the current plan of ?24tph gained from TBTC commissioning, after that it will need a much better interchange down there, with the quiet possibility (in terms of proximity of tunnels and the requirements to shovel the line away from Network Rail) of another NR link to inter run on, requiring extra platforms at Camden Town or Chalk Farm, or a section of TBTC / Coloured Light inter-running. (Siemens and Thales would need to talk to each other!)

It is also likely that planned station dwell times will increase, as they did with the latest Jubilee Line upgrade, this allows for our wonderful traveling public to have enough time to board.

 

[Mikey C]

I don't believe splitting the Northern Line is being considered without a major capacity upgrade at Camden Town, as you rightly point out it simply wouldn't cope otherwise.

Chris

Agreed, my understanding is that the southern section will be split (Bank to Morden, Charing X to Battersea) but trains will still go both ways after Camden, which will need a massive rebuild, which will be both very expensive and controversial in terms of how much surface demolition will be needed.

That's a major order for the Northern Line, and does it make sense to build new trains to the same spec as those built 20 years earlier, even if they were a decent design?

 

[Busaholic]

Agreed, my understanding is that the southern section will be split (Bank to Morden, Charing X to Battersea) but trains will still go both ways after Camden, which will need a massive rebuild, which will be both very expensive and controversial in terms of how much surface demolition will be needed.

That's a major order for the Northern Line, and does it make sense to build new trains to the same spec as those built 20 years earlier, even if they were a decent design?

On other threads, I was informed (on what authority, I know not) that no significant capacity increases could be achieved without the split at the northern end too, effectively creating two separate lines in practice even if not in name, this because of the crossovers that would still be needed.

Euston would be far from ideal for changing trains anymore than is done at present, but I can see regular commuters in the evening peak doing this in order to get a seat when their second train comes into Camden Town. How acceptable would it be to start adopting Japanese practices of shoving people onto trains? I'll answer my own question and say 'totally unacceptable' but it might be what would be needed. Platform doors might also help at a few locations inc Camden.

All in all, there are more questions than answers at present and there is either something we are not being told or there was a flaw in the announcement that has not been corrected.

 

[edwin_m]

• Splitting the fleet, you'll naturally need more maintenance spares.
• The fleet wasn't big enough to start with and the heavy maintenance cycles will mean taking too much out of service.

Presumably if the route is being split to provide more capacity for trains, then more trains are needed to take advantage of it.

 

[swt_passenger]

Found this LURS analysis of a split route operating at about 30tph on each separate line, in this article he reckons on that needing 32 extra trains, but at a first skim through he might not be including the Battersea extension:

http://lurs.org.uk/documents/pdf 08/july/NORTHERN LINE HEADING FOR A SPLIT.pdf

This briefing from the Mayor and TfL also refers to the split, with 30 tph on each route, (page 14 of the pdf, RH side):

"By 2022, we'll increase train frequencies further, to at least 30 trains
per hour. To achieve this we'll need to buy extra trains, and simplify
the service pattern so that all Morden trains run via Bank and all
trains from the new Battersea extension go via Charing Cross."

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/fit-for-the-future.pdf

That seems to me to indicate that the split already has de facto Mayoral approval?

But then again in the fairly recent 2050 consultation, they also refer to the Jubilee, Northern and Piccadilly all running at 36 tph. That would also bump the numbers up a few notches...

 

[edwin_m]

"By 2022, we'll increase train frequencies further, to at least 30 trains
per hour. To achieve this we'll need to buy extra trains, and simplify
the service pattern so that all Morden trains run via Bank and all
trains from the new Battersea extension go via Charing Cross."

That seems to me to indicate that the split already has de facto Mayoral approval?

Not necessarily. It could just be splitting at Kennington and leaving things are they are at Camden Town.

The Battersea extension is jumping off from the Kennington balloon loop, which is only accessible from the Charing Cross branch, and I don't believe there is any plan to provide extra crossovers. So there will be no access to Battersea from the Bank branch anyway.