Use of peripheral London stations on long distance services

[miklcct]

Peripheral London stations here mean the stations where most long distance trains call, normally in zone 2 or 3 with transfers to other local lines (including Tube and Overground) possible without entering zone 1, such as Clapham Junction, Stratford, Stratford International, etc. If a long distance train calls at such a station, it's usually more convenient to transfer there instead of entering a London Terminal if the final destination isn't on the opposite side of London.

Stratford, being one such station, has topped the entry / exit count in the National Rail network last year, busier than all London Terminals, while Clapham Junction has consistently topped the list of interchanges by a large extent, but the entry / exit count falls short of the terminals. However, if we add the number of entry / exit and the interchange together, Clapham Junction is as busy as Stratford or the bigger London Terminals.

I presume the reason Clapham Junction falls short in the entry / exit numbers is because moving from National Rail to Tube at a London Terminal or Stratford is considered an exit, but moving to Overground at Clapham Junction is an interchange for counting purpose.

So we can conclude that such peripheral stations where long distance trains call are as important as the terminal itself. However, I believe they are underrated by train companies as fast trains frequently skip these stations. At Stratford, only half of the Norwich trains call there, while at Clapham Junction, only half of the SWR fast trains call there on weekdays, and none at all in peak hours. However, all SWR trains call there on Sundays.

There are also a few lines where long distance trains don't call at any peripheral stations at all, such as Great Western Main Line (Ealing Broadway - a good interchange for the Tube), Midland Main Line (West Hampstead - for Overground and Jubilee). If long distance trains call at these stations, those not requiring Central London can leave the train there and change to the peripheral tube / Overground lines.

Why don't more long distance trains call at a peripheral London station which provides good connectivity to the nearside London, enabling shorter total journey times for those without a need to enter zone 1?

In addition, why don't SWR long distance trains not calling at Clapham Junction instead call at Wimbledon? Wimbledon also gives a good connection to south London by Thameslink, District line and also London Trams.

 

[JonathanH]

Why don't more long distance trains call at a peripheral London station which provides good connectivity to the nearside London, enabling shorter total journey times for those without a need to enter zone 1?

There would need to be more platforms at the peripheral London stations to allow the headway to let more long distance trains stop with a reasonable dwell time.

You have already noted that only half the Norwich trains stop. Similarly, not all trains stop at Clapham Junction.

It just isn't achievable for long-distance trains to all stop at a station on the way out of the London Terminal. Even at Reading, the station had to be rebuilt to allow trains to call without delay. Before two platforms existed on the down fast route trains would routinely queue for the platform.

Generally people travelling on long distance trains also want time to board and take their seat which is best achieved at a terminal station.

 

[MattRat]

There would need to be more platforms at the peripheral London stations to allow the headway to let more long distance trains stop with a reasonable dwell time.

You have already noted that only half the Norwich trains stop. Similarly, not all trains stop at Clapham Junction.

It just isn't achievable for long-distance trains to all stop at a station on the way out of the London Terminal. Even at Reading, the station had to be rebuilt to allow trains to call without delay. Before two platforms existed on the down fast route trains would routinely queue for the platform.

And the main thing stopping expansion is all the properties built around those stations taking up space. The same properties that make people want to get off at those stops.

It's a pretty funny catch 22, honestly. If only there had been some foresight.....

 

[Non Multi]

There are also a few lines where long distance trains don't call at any peripheral stations at all, such as Great Western Main Line (Ealing Broadway - a good interchange for the Tube), Midland Main Line (West Hampstead - for Overground and Jubilee). If long distance trains call at these stations, those not requiring Central London can leave the train there and change to the peripheral tube / Overground lines.

Old Oak Common station on the GWML will serve this purpose with all Great Western services proposed to call there, providing interchange with Elizabeth line, HS2, a limited Chiltern service and a walking route to the nearby Central line station at North Acton. Platforms for interchange with London Overground have been previously proposed but I don't think have the funding to enable construction.

 

[Ken H]

There were plans for a big station at Iver on Western Region. but that wasnt near the tube. think it was to be a parkway close to the M25 and a railhead for Heathrow. Maybe interchange to the stoppers into Paddington. 1980's

 

[adamedwards]

Once HS2 is up and running, one plan discussed for many years is rebuilding the platforms on the WCML at Willesden to allow more trains to stop and link to the Overground and Bakerloo. But HS2 has to come first. The obvious trains to stop are the LNW trains but might Avanti want some calls too?

 

[cle]

I wouldn't call Finsbury Park peripheral (although zones 2/3 are mentioned, I'd challenge them being that) - Stevenage is the equivalent. Also Finsbury Park doesn't offer tons which KX doesn't - i.e. same tube lines. City Line, yes.

West Hampstead offers good connections, but again is very central.

Tottenham Hale is another example which is somewhat further out - and is critical, it brings the West End to the WA. And everything calls there - which is unique here, possibly other than Waterloo East and London Bridge? Might Richmond count? East Croydon?

On this, I think we know Watford Junction will have more calls in future with HS2 - an hourly Manchester as well as a Birmingham - maybe others.

 

[miklcct]

I wouldn't call Finsbury Park peripheral (although zones 2/3 are mentioned, I'd challenge them being that) - Stevenage is the equivalent. Also Finsbury Park doesn't offer tons which KX doesn't - i.e. same tube lines. City Line, yes.

West Hampstead offers good connections, but again is very central.

Tottenham Hale is another example which is somewhat further out - and is critical, it brings the West End to the WA. And everything calls there - which is unique here, possibly other than Waterloo East and London Bridge? Might Richmond count? East Croydon?

On this, I think we know Watford Junction will have more calls in future with HS2 - an hourly Manchester as well as a Birmingham - maybe others.

I specify zone 2/3 is because it still provides a lot of useful connections to various part of London without entering zone 1. Instead, if the call is in zone 6 or even further out, there aren't much useful connections to other lines so far out in general (East Croydon is an exception being a junction with various lines including tram lines). There are no orbital lines at all north of North London / Gospel Oak - Barking lines.

Waterloo East and London Bridge are "true" London Terminals (Waterloo East can be considered part of Waterloo) so they are out of scope here.
There are no long distance trains serving the line at Richmond, only suburban trains so it is also out of scope.

East Croydon is an example where most long-distance trains call. The only trains on Brighton main line which don't call at East Croydon and Clapham Junction are the Gatwick Express trains. It is very useful to access South London without entering the inner zones, which can be called "the gateway of South London".

 

[Philip]

Depending on paths, the Crewe-London LNR service could be an idea for stopping at Watford Junction and Wembley Central, to provide better connections from the North West to the places in question, as well as an easier interchange than the tube zone 1 for passengers wanting to go to other parts of North and West London.

 

[tomuk]

Old Oak Common station on the GWML will serve this purpose with all Great Western services proposed to call there, providing interchange with Elizabeth line, HS2, a limited Chiltern service and a walking route to the nearby Central line station at North Acton. Platforms for interchange with London Overground have been previously proposed but I don't think have the funding to enable construction.

There is currently no plan for Chiltern services let alone funding. Plus there is no convenient walking route to North Acton.

 

[507020]

There is currently no plan for Chiltern services let alone funding. Plus there is no convenient walking route to North Acton.

There isn’t a station at Old Oak Common or a HS2 yet either.

 

[A S Leib]

Would EMR want to serve West Hempstead Thameslink even if there's the capacity for it after removing practically all stops south of Kettering on intercity services? I doubt that there's tons of demand to go from Corby and Wellingborough to the Jubilee line (changing at St Pancras and Farringdon would probably be quicker for London Bridge / the Docklands and Stratford) and West Hempstead Thameslink already has four tph to Luton. If it happens at all, I don't think it will before HS2 reaches the East Midlands.

 

[RT4038]

Depending on paths, the Crewe-London LNR service could be an idea for stopping at Watford Junction and Wembley Central, to provide better connections from the North West to the places in question, as well as an easier interchange than the tube zone 1 for passengers wanting to go to other parts of North and West London.

Anywhere else you would like them to stop? Any concern for the ever increasing journey times for those travelling to Central London?

 

[A S Leib]

Anywhere else you would like them to stop? Any concern for the ever increasing journey times for those travelling to Central London?

Couldn't more Avanti services call at Nuneaton, Tamworth and Lichfield post-HS2 so only Rugeley and Atherstone (around 300,000 passengers together annually pre-pandemic) end up with a slightly slower service?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

If you were building London's network from scratch, there would be a case for a sort of "outer circle" line for interchanges between the various radial intercity routes, but you'd probably go further out than the zone 1-2 boundary: think Wimbledon or Surbiton rather than Clapham Junction; Watford rather than Willesden; and Hayes or Southall rather than Old Oak Common.

 

[Philip]

Anywhere else you would like them to stop? Any concern for the ever increasing journey times for those travelling to Central London?

It shouldn't all be about end-end journey times; some consideration towards connections en route should be given. And the LNR service isn't the 'express' offering on the WCML anyway.

 

[A0]

Couldn't more Avanti services call at Nuneaton, Tamworth and Lichfield post-HS2 so only Rugeley and Atherstone (around 300,000 passengers together annually pre-pandemic) end up with a slightly slower service?

BIB
+ Northampton which is getting no benefit whatsoever from HS2.

It shouldn't all be about end-end journey times; some consideration towards connections en route should be given. And the LNR service isn't the 'express' offering on the WCML anyway.

But it has been proven that an excessive journey time puts people off travelling. It's all well and good saying "but adding stop 'x' only slows the train down by "y" minutes and adds loads of connectivity" but that's only any good if a significant number want or need that connectivity - if not, you're inconveniencing more than you're improving things for. And it then leads to overcrowding as people start using it for Watford - Wembley or Wembley - Euston journeys - you see this between Birmingham and Coventry where the Avanti or XC services leave full and standing, when the WMR ones don't, because people want to get "the fast train".

 

[30907]

So we can conclude that such peripheral stations where long distance trains call are as important as the terminal itself.

That only follows if you count the long distance passengers using them - for example, is the Bournemouth-London offpeak split (normal timetable) around 75 Waterloo 25 Clapham Jn?

However, I believe they are underrated by train companies as fast trains frequently skip these stations.

That is factually not true: CLJ was in the early 60s served by hardly any fast services (1tph semifast Brighton, 1tph slow Brighton, none from Waterloo), and the same applies to Stratford. BR and its successors have responded to changing travel patterns (where possible - CLJ in the peaks is an obvious case).

The longer-distance operators have preferred stops further out (Stevenage), Luton, Reading, Milton Keynes (and Woking) - all of which have some importance in themselves, and which are connected by outer-suburban trains to the inner-London locations you mention.

 

[The Planner]

Once HS2 is up and running, one plan discussed for many years is rebuilding the platforms on the WCML at Willesden to allow more trains to stop and link to the Overground and Bakerloo. But HS2 has to come first. The obvious trains to stop are the LNW trains but might Avanti want some calls too?

I can't see Willesden ever getting WCML platforms. Its never stacked up no matter how many times its been looked at.

Depending on paths, the Crewe-London LNR service could be an idea for stopping at Watford Junction and Wembley Central, to provide better connections from the North West to the places in question, as well as an easier interchange than the tube zone 1 for passengers wanting to go to other parts of North and West London.

Watford yes, Wembley no unless it was slow lines.

Couldn't more Avanti services call at Nuneaton, Tamworth and Lichfield post-HS2 so only Rugeley and Atherstone (around 300,000 passengers together annually pre-pandemic) end up with a slightly slower service?

Nuneaton will get more prior to HS2.

 

[JonathanH]

Couldn't more Avanti services call at Nuneaton, Tamworth and Lichfield post-HS2 so only Rugeley and Atherstone (around 300,000 passengers together annually pre-pandemic) end up with a slightly slower service?

It would be much easier to just transfer the LNR service to Avanti.

 

[Peter0124]

Imagine having LNER call at Finsbury Park

 

[miklcct]

Imagine having LNER call at Finsbury Park

If it become true I'll appreciate it. I'll start my LNER journeys there instead of Kings Cross since it's more convenient for me to get to.

The longer-distance operators have preferred stops further out (Stevenage), Luton, Reading, Milton Keynes (and Woking) - all of which have some importance in themselves, and which are connected by outer-suburban trains to the inner-London locations you mention.

Reading, Luton, Milton Keynes and Woking are already far enough to consider as destinations themselves that intercity trains are commonly used by commuters to get to London. I call them "satellite towns" of London.

For example, if no trains call at Clapham Junction, there are two changes required to get to Sutton: Woking and Wimbledon. First from intercity to mainline suburban, then from mainline suburban to orbital line. The point of calling at Clapham Junction or similar is to enable interchange directly to other lines, which can't be achieved at Woking / Luton / Watford Junction / etc.

 

[30907]

Reading, Luton, Milton Keynes and Woking are already far enough to consider as destinations themselves that intercity trains are commonly used by commuters to get to London. I call them "satellite towns" of London.

And that gives them a sufficient market from "provincial" stations, plus a chunk of the London flow, to warrant delaying the expresses.

For example, if no trains call at Clapham Junction, there are two changes required to get to Sutton: Woking and Wimbledon. First from intercity to mainline suburban, then from mainline suburban to orbital line.

The majority of long distance journeys to/from London suburbs require this, though Thameslink has reduced the total, but the individual flows are mostly small. My irregular journeys from Shipley to Penge would be typical of that.

The point of calling at Clapham Junction or similar is to enable interchange directly to other lines, which can't be achieved at Woking / Luton / Watford Junction / etc.

which is why it is done - but it is key medium-distance destinations (Croydon, Gatwick, Brighton/Salisbury, Southampton, Portsmouth...) that create the significant flows. That has made Clapham Jn almost unique among interchange stations.

 

[miklcct]

The majority of long distance journeys to/from London suburbs require this, though Thameslink has reduced the total, but the individual flows are mostly small.

The call at Clapham Junction / Stratford / West Hampstead Thameslink / Croydon enables many of such journeys to be done with one interchange only (long distance direct to local service) instead of two (long distance to radial suburban service, then to local service).

 

[Hadders]

It shouldn't all be about end-end journey times; some consideration towards connections en route should be given. And the LNR service isn't the 'express' offering on the WCML anyway.

It might not be the express service from Crewe to London but it is the express service between Nuneaton, Rugeley, Tamworth (and arguably) Rugby and London. Calling at Wembley Central would be ridiculous.

If it become true I'll appreciate it. I'll start my LNER journeys there instead of Kings Cross since it's more convenient for me to get to.

It's not all about you! It would be silly for LNER to call at Finsbury Park which is just five minutes from Kings Cross. LNER and its successors have used Finsbury Park to start and terminate when Kings Cross has been closed for engineering work.

 

[miklcct]

It might not be the express service from Crewe to London but it is the express service between Nuneaton, Rugeley, Tamworth (and arguably) Rugby and London. Calling at Wembley Central would be ridiculous.


It's not all about you! It would be silly for LNER to call at Finsbury Park which is just five minutes from Kings Cross. LNER and its successors have used Finsbury Park to start and terminate when Kings Cross has been closed for engineering work.

Calling at Finsbury Park can make the service much more competitive against coach travel when the ultimate destination is North London.

The fact that there is no Willesden Junction station on the West Midlands main line mean that coach travel is usually the fastest way to get from north London to Birmingham, as it's possible to board a coach in North London and go straight onto the motorway without entering zone 1.

 

[A S Leib]

It would be silly for LNER to call at Finsbury Park which is just five minutes from Kings Cross

Would it make more sense if Finsbury Park had more local services which King's Cross / St. Pancras didn't? Stratford's only seven minutes from Liverpool Street but has the DLR, Jubilee, Overground (and Southeastern High Speed), although I doubt slowing down Norwich trains taking two hours at most is as big of an issue as doing the same to people who've been on a train for four or five hours.

 

[JonathanH]

Calling at Finsbury Park can make the service much more competitive against coach travel when the ultimate destination is North London.

The fact that there is no Willesden Junction station on the West Midlands main line mean that coach travel is usually the fastest way to get from north London to Birmingham, as it's possible to board a coach in North London and go straight onto the motorway without entering zone 1.

Does it really matter that a few people in Golders Green can get to Birmingham quicker by coach than by train? (I'm not entirely sure that is true in any case.)

The railway really doesn't have to go chasing people who travel by coach as a potential customer base. Coach travel is a much smaller market than rail travel, has a lower cost base and isn't something that ought to be discouraged.

 

[CBlue]

Calling at Finsbury Park can make the service much more competitive against coach travel when the ultimate destination is North London.

The fact that there is no Willesden Junction station on the West Midlands main line mean that coach travel is usually the fastest way to get from north London to Birmingham, as it's possible to board a coach in North London and go straight onto the motorway without entering zone 1.

I don't know how you've arrived at that conclusion, or just simply not looked it up before pressing post - but a direct coach is over half an hour slower as a quick check using google maps shows.....



As for stopping everything at Finsbury Park - what connections does it offer that Kings' Cross doesn't? Never mind that it's 12 minutes journey on the Victoria Line, although going from previous posts of yours a twelve minute increase in a journey time is anathema to you....

The average passenger doesn't screw around making obscure orbital journeys or trying to stretch ticket validity - they go to a terminus or station with frequent connections and make their journey simpler by using the tube etc.

 

[A0]

I don't know how you've arrived at that conclusion, or just simply not looked it up before pressing post - but a direct coach is over half an hour slower as a quick check using google maps shows.....
View attachment 115628View attachment 115629


As for stopping everything at Finsbury Park - what connections does it offer that Kings' Cross doesn't? Never mind that it's 12 minutes journey on the Victoria Line, although going from previous posts of yours a twelve minute increase in a journey time is anathema to you....

The average passenger doesn't screw around making obscure orbital journeys or trying to stretch ticket validity - they go to a terminus or station with frequent connections and make their journey simpler by using the tube etc.

Bit in bold - and less than that and on the level if you wander from the "Long Distance" to the suburban platforms at Kings Cross......