Use of the HS1 to Southern suburban spur (Southfleet Junction to Fawkham Junction)

[davetheguard]

The Southfleet Junction to Fawkham Junction line has always been of interest to me, not least because it was a closed railway that was partially rebuilt and re-opened for Eurostar services from Waterloo. Now of course, with the construction of the second section of HS1, Eurostar no longer use the route. So, no longer part of the main line from London to Paris, it has become a quiet backwater again.

However, recently in one of the magazines, I saw a picture of a diverted Javelin service - it was come off of HS1 at Southfleet Junction and was travelling to Victoria instead of St. Pancras.

I have to say that it is very refreshing that South Eastern has ensured that drivers have kept their route knowledge for this alternative route. Now there's obviously a cost to this, and it would have been so easy to just give up running trains if there are problems on HS1 (Eurostar, in comparison, does not have this luxury of a bolthole).

But it does raise some questions:

How often do SE run over the line to retain route knowledge, and is it necessary to run over it in both directions?

Are any of these booked passenger trains, or just ECS?

Does Victoria (Chatham side) have the spare platform capacity to accommodate a frequent service, and if so, what sort of level,- hourly? half hourly? or better?

Obviously, the amount of occasions when it is necessary to divert will vary year on year, but out of interest, how many times has it happened in say, the last twelve months?

Do any other trains use the Southfleet Junction to Fawkham Junction line?

 

[Lockwood]

Doesn't knowledge have to be of every movement, so that would be both directions?

 

[steevp]

It used to be that a driver (and guard) had to travel the route every 6 months or go on a refresher. This caused a problem if a particular route only featured once in a diagram and you swapped turns and so didn't do it for a while.

 

[westcoaster]

Service runs Wednesday only doesn't it ashford-Vic- ashford out via kent house back via catford.

 

[causton]

Service runs Wednesday only doesn't it ashford-Vic- ashford out via kent house back via catford.

Here ya go!

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W47477/2013/10/30/advanced
5J01 1028 Ashford Down Sidings to London Victoria
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W47480/2013/10/30/advanced
5J02 1234 London Victoria to Ashford Down Sidings

 

[samxool]

Here ya go!

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W47477/2013/10/30/advanced
5J01 1028 Ashford Down Sidings to London Victoria
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W47480/2013/10/30/advanced
5J02 1234 London Victoria to Ashford Down Sidings

This isn't for passenger use is it??

 

[jopsuk]

It would seem not. 5xxx headcode is Empty Coaching Stock.

Do Southeastern High Speed drivers and guards also work any Mainline services, or is that other than this working the only route they usually work to London is to St Pancras? Ie do they sign stock other than Javelins?

 

[Mintona]

No. High speed crews only work high speed trains.

 

[Chris Butler]

I have two questions, but no answers !

The link was used for around four years in the period when Waterloo international was the terminus for Eurostar. Is that correct ?

Does anyone know how much was spent on the link in order to use if for four years ?

 

[dggar]

I have two questions, but no answers !

The link was used for around four years in the period when Waterloo international was the terminus for Eurostar. Is that correct ?

Does anyone know how much was spent on the link in order to use if for four years ?

Eurostar started operating towards the end of 1994.
HS1 to London became opeartional in 2007

 

[Bald Rick]

Shall we try again

CTRL Phase 1 opened in September 2003; Channel Tunnel - Southfleet - Fawkham Jn.

Phase 2 opened in November 2007; Southfleet - St Pancras.

So the line was used for 4 and a bit years.

In addition, the dive-under at Shortlands was also bulit specifically for this 4 and a bit year period to keep the Eurostars out of the way of the Kent domestic services.

 

[Mintona]

Shall we try again

CTRL Phase 1 opened in September 2003; Channel Tunnel - Southfleet - Fawkham Jn.

Phase 2 opened in November 2007; Southfleet - St Pancras.

So the line was used for 4 and a bit years.

In addition, the dive-under at Shortlands was also bulit specifically for this 4 and a bit year period to keep the Eurostars out of the way of the Kent domestic services.

And very handy it is now its there!

 

[Philip C]

Shall we try again

CTRL Phase 1 opened in September 2003; Channel Tunnel - Southfleet - Fawkham Jn.

Phase 2 opened in November 2007; Southfleet - St Pancras.

So the line was used for 4 and a bit years.

In addition, the dive-under at Shortlands was also bulit specifically for this 4 and a bit year period to keep the Eurostars out of the way of the Kent domestic services.

The waste of resources on the intermediate phase of HS1 is, of course, a scandal but is only part of the wastage associated with the pre-HS1 phases of the EuroStar project.

Waterloo International
North Pole Depot
Nine Elms Flyover
Shortlands Diveunder
Petts Wood to Bickley Quadrupling
Fawkham Junction to Southfleet Junction
Tonbridge Remodelling
Headcorn Loops
Ashford International Station in all its little used splendor

All the above, and others will be able to lengthen the list, for a temporary operational arrangement and largely discarded within a very few years. Waste on this scale is tolerated and yet, outside the "favoured zones", dilapidation is endlessly endured. Last week I travelled, between Saltburn and Darlington, on a pacer with the seat cover stapled to the cushion. But that doesn't affect those with power.

 

[HSTEd]

As far as I know the CTRL was far from guaranteed when the Eurostar commenced operations, indeed the original plan for the CTRL would have seen trains continue to use Waterloo regardless of what happened with St Pancras.

The fact that Low Cost Airlines crushed the cross channel rail market lead to a change of plans.

 

[samxool]

The waste of resources on the intermediate phase of HS1 is, of course, a scandal but is only part of the wastage associated with the pre-HS1 phases of the EuroStar project.

Waterloo International
North Pole Depot
Nine Elms Flyover
Shortlands Diveunder
Petts Wood to Bickley Quadrupling
Fawkham Junction to Southfleet Junction
Tonbridge Remodelling
Headcorn Loops
Ashford International Station in all its little used splendor

All the above, and others will be able to lengthen the list, for a temporary operational arrangement and largely discarded within a very few years. Waste on this scale is tolerated and yet, outside the "favoured zones", dilapidation is endlessly endured. Last week I travelled, between Saltburn and Darlington, on a pacer with the seat cover stapled to the cushion. But that doesn't affect those with power.

You can cross the shortlands diveunder and the quadrupling off your list, as these are still in use by regular trains.
And plenty of people get on and off javelin trains at Ashford.

 

[MK Tom]

North Pole depot pains me every time I go past it. Why that isn't being upgraded as a depot for new GWML electric stock is beyond me.

 

[Manchester77]

I thought it was

 

[Mintona]

Shorthands Diveunder, Bickley - Petts Wood quadrupling, Tonbridge, Headcorn and Ashford are all still useful. Ashford is not a 'little used' station, and without it there would probably be no domestic high speed service. Shortlands - Bickley - Petts Wood is vital to achieve the level of train service that exists today; in fact it would be useful if the down Chatham - down Chatham fast line didn't still have to cross the up Chatham slow - up Chatham line.

 

[The Ham]

The waste of resources on the intermediate phase of HS1 is, of course, a scandal but is only part of the wastage associated with the pre-HS1 phases of the EuroStar project.

Waterloo International
North Pole Depot
Nine Elms Flyover
Shortlands Diveunder
Petts Wood to Bickley Quadrupling
Fawkham Junction to Southfleet Junction
Tonbridge Remodelling
Headcorn Loops
Ashford International Station in all its little used splendor

All the above, and others will be able to lengthen the list, for a temporary operational arrangement and largely discarded within a very few years. Waste on this scale is tolerated and yet, outside the "favoured zones", dilapidation is endlessly endured. Last week I travelled, between Saltburn and Darlington, on a pacer with the seat cover stapled to the cushion. But that doesn't affect those with power.

Also Waterloo international is back (partly) in use, although it would have been a lot less of a waste if it had been brought back into passenger use a lot sooner after the international trains stopped running there.

Of course there is still the possibility that in due course that passenger numbers reach a point where running services to Waterloo again makes sense (although would have to be post Crossrail 2 and would probably also require some line speed improvements to bring journey times down a bit)

 

[NotATrainspott]

Of course there is still the possibility that in due course that passenger numbers reach a point where running services to Waterloo again makes sense (although would have to be post Crossrail 2 and would probably also require some line speed improvements to bring journey times down a bit)

All the 373s have had their DC shoegear removed, so it would at least require them to be fitted again either on the whole fleet or to create a sub-fleet. In any case, Eurostar are extremely unlikely to ever buy a UK-gauge train again so by the time Crossrail 2/3 opens the 373s will be nearing retirement with their replacements being unable to serve anywhere but HS1 and HS2.

 

[Stats]

North Pole depot pains me every time I go past it. Why that isn't being upgraded as a depot for new GWML electric stock is beyond me.

Hitachi has taken possession and is currently remodelling it for IEP.

 

[paul1609]

From personal observation it would appear that despite the poor service Ashford International probably still has more Eurostar passengers than Ebbsfleet.
Theres also quite a few of the Ebbsfleet passengers who when alighting go straight to the southbound domestic HS platform.

 

[davetheguard]

From personal observation it would appear that despite the poor service Ashford International probably still has more Eurostar passengers than Ebbsfleet.
Theres also quite a few of the Ebbsfleet passengers who when alighting go straight to the southbound domestic HS platform.

Although I must admit I've never had the opportunity to use either station to catch Eurostar (but I've used Waterloo and now St. Pancras quite a bit), I do have a certain sympathy for Ashford over Ebbesfleet, and think the service should be improved at Ashford.

Not least because Ashford has much better rail connections; while Ebbesfleet is all about attracting motorists - there's a place for that in the modern world, but I think the priority should be about providing public transport connections.

At Ebbesfleet, provision hasn't even been made for passengers to walk from the nearby Northfleet station, which could have provided convenient access by rail from the Dartford, Eltham, & Woolwich directions. (Although I don't know it well, I've heard the walk is quite unnecessarily impossible due to car parks and fencing in the way).

 

[HowardGWR]

Although I must admit I've never had the opportunity to use either station to catch Eurostar (but I've used Waterloo and now St. Pancras quite a bit), I do have a certain sympathy for Ashford over Ebbesfleet, and think the service should be improved at Ashford.

Not least because Ashford has much better rail connections; while Ebbesfleet is all about attracting motorists - there's a place for that in the modern world, but I think the priority should be about providing public transport connections.

At Ebbesfleet, provision hasn't even been made for passengers to walk from the nearby Northfleet station, which could have provided convenient access by rail from the Dartford, Eltham, & Woolwich directions. (Although I don't know it well, I've heard the walk is quite unnecessarily impossible due to car parks and fencing in the way).

Quite. As a personal wish, (but I think many would wish it) a through fast service from Reading to Ashford Int. would find many from the SW and Wales who are attracted to Eurostar services but fly because of the faff (and expense) of going via London. At present one has to change at least twice on that trip. A really fast through service would enable a much more attractive service to be offered. Completing the triangle at Redhill would help of course.

 

[Eagle]

All the 373s have had their DC shoegear removed, so it would at least require them to be fitted again either on the whole fleet or to create a sub-fleet. In any case, Eurostar are extremely unlikely to ever buy a UK-gauge train again so by the time Crossrail 2/3 opens the 373s will be nearing retirement with their replacements being unable to serve anywhere but HS1 and HS2.

And of course the 374s don't have shoegear.