Using a 16-17 railcard

[user2234]

Hello,
Back in October 2023 I brought a adult ticket with a 16-17 saver attached to it
When the ticket man came and asked for my ticket I showed him it and he asked me to present my railcard
I presented it however I had brought the wrong one and I had brought a Network Railcard by mistake.
He didn’t charge me for a new ticket and instead said next time buy an adult one
Today I received an email about it stating

We have recently been handed a file relating to an incident on 24/10/2023 when approached by staff carrying out their revenue duties, you were asked to show your valid ticket you offered a ticket with a railcard attached and were unable to present your railcard, therefore you would not have been eligible for the discounted rate.



Further investigations into this matter have been carried out, including a review of the ticket records. It would appear, at this stage, that this may be a case of fraud. West Midlands Trains take travel fraud extremely seriously and is committed to prosecuting all cases of fare evasion to the full extent of the law. Travelling on the railway with the intent to avoid paying the full fare is an offence under the Regulation of Railways Act 1889. Such an offence carries a maximum fine of £1,000 and/or three months’ imprisonment and, in either case, a criminal record. It must also be considered whether this matter amounts to a much more serious offence under the Fraud Act 2006.



At this stage we would be grateful if you would provide any evidence to support the claim that none of the above legislation has been contravened to prevent further action being contemplated.



We look forward to hearing from you.


I accidentally used the wrong railcard For about 3-5 trips and I used it once after the event stated in the email
I was 16 at the time of the events
I am really worried about it as I am living with my parents and still a child and do not want to go to prison or have a criminal record or anything.

What do you think will happen?

 

[methecooldude]

Which train operator was this with, and what journeys did you do?

Others will be along shortly, but I think you have shot yourself in the foot by continuing to apply the discount for another journey after you were caught, did you think the inspector was joking when they said 'next time buy an adult one'?

 

[user2234]

Which train operator was this with, and what journeys did you do?

Others will be along shortly, but I think you have shot yourself in the foot by continuing to apply the discount for another journey after you were caught, did you think the inspector was joking when they said 'next time buy an adult one'?

The journey I did was Hemel Hempstead to Leighton buzzard. And Bletchley to Leicester. I have a 16-17 saver now but did not then

 

[notmyrealname]

Methecooldude, post #1 says West Midlands Trains.

user2234, is that who the email came from?

To answer one of your questions, you won't go to prison for this. But you need to make sure you use the right Railcard from now on.

 

[skyhigh]

We have recently been handed a file relating to an incident on 24/10/2023

If they haven't applied for a court summons yet, they are too late to do so under the Byelaws or Regulation of Railways Act, as the time limit to bring proceedings is 6 months.

They mention the Fraud Act but the chances of them trying to prosecute Fraud for 5 tickets is remote and we've not seen any cases of them doing so on here. They could also bring civil proceedings to reclaim any debt due but again we haven't heard of this happening on here.

From a similar thread today -

The train company cannot prosecute you under the railway bylaws or the Regulation of Railways Act for the offence in October, nor any offences before then. They are out of time; they have six months to bring a prosecution which they have failed to do because they are disorganised and/or lazy. Too bad for them.

It is not for you to provide evidence of innocence. They must provide evidence of your guilt. There is no question of fraud here; you simply didn't know what a railcard was. Fraud is a very serious offence which requires a high standard of proof. Train companies do not themselves bring prosecutions for fraud; in practice they would need to pass the case to the police if they wanted this offence investigated. The police would view this as a waste of time with basically no chance of conviction.

My recommendation is not to reply to the correspondence. They cannot prosecute you. If they start asking for the money back via civil means (The County Court) please do return to let us know, but we haven't seen any train companies try this before for cases like this.

 

[methecooldude]

Methecooldude, post #1 says West Midlands Trains.

So it does, me blind

 

[user2234]

Methecooldude, post #1 says West Midlands Trains.

user2234, is that who the email came from?

To answer one of your questions, you won't go to prison for this. But you need to make sure you use the right Railcard from now on.

Yes the email was from west midlands
Do you think if I offer to pay a fine they will give me one and let me pay it all and that will be it?

Also how long do They (West Midlands) take to reply to emails . I replied to them and wasn’t sure how long they would take. Does anyone know roughly as it’s eating me up inside and I want it over

 

[Titfield]

Only a court can impose a fine and realistically as referred to above it is very unlikely to go to court.

The railway could offer you an administrative settlement, commonly called an out of court settlement, which would be the full single fare for all the journeys taken (with no allowance made for fares paid already) plus an administration fee of between £100 and £200.

 

[notmyrealname]

You may need to explain about using the wrong card three to five times, people here will help you decide how to tell WMT this.

Also, you said you 'used it once after the event stated in the email'. That might need explaining as well. What happened?

​

 

[Elecman]

Aren’t West Midlands are out of time for a Byelaws or RORA prosecution unless they have already notified the court of the charge of the event was 24th October 2023?

 

[skyhigh]

Aren’t West Midlands are out of time for a Byelaws or RORA prosecution unless they have already notified the court of the charge of the event was 24th October 2023?

As I said in post 5, yes. They're out of time.

 

[user2234]

w

As I said in post 5, yes. They're out of time.

okay thank you, what does this mean? They cannot do what?
Also the other day I brought the 16-17 saver railcard, in my email I’ve sent them a screenshot of it showing I now have one and I am sorry and it won’t happen again as I have one.

 

[Pushpit]

w

okay thank you, what does this mean? They cannot do what?
Also the other day I brought the 16-17 saver railcard, in my email I’ve sent them a screenshot of it showing I now have one and I am sorry and it won’t happen again as I have one.

If you bought tickets without the right railcard between 1 November 2023 and "the other day" referenced in your post 12, the data trawl has probably identified this. If you then travelled on those tickets then you could end up with a criminal conviction, but it's open to question whether the rail company (or their data processors) have that evidence unless you confess to doing so.

If you bought tickets for travel before 1 November 2023 that is out of time for the typical prosecution route but they could try to get the money out of you through the civil process (small claims court track). Again they need evidence that you travelled on those tickets, for example you replying to this email saying you did so. However the evidence test is radically different between these processes. The criminal evidence test is "beyond reasonable doubt", a high bar. The civil test is "balance of probability". If you did it once - and were caught - does that suggest, on the balance of probability, that you did it more than once? A question you don't need to answer here.

If you really are under 18 at the time of travel then it's open to question whether you should be prosecuted. If you are using a 16-17 railcard but are now too old to have one then that's not going to help matters.

 

[user2234]

If you bought tickets without the right railcard between 1 November 2023 and "the other day" referenced in your post 12, the data trawl has probably identified this. If you then travelled on those tickets then you could end up with a criminal conviction, but it's open to question whether the rail company (or their data processors) have that evidence unless you confess to doing so.

If you bought tickets for travel before 1 November 2023 that is out of time for the typical prosecution route but they could try to get the money out of you through the civil process (small claims court track). Again they need evidence that you travelled on those tickets, for example you replying to this email saying you did so. However the evidence test is radically different between these processes. The criminal evidence test is "beyond reasonable doubt", a high bar. The civil test is "balance of probability". If you did it once - and were caught - does that suggest, on the balance of probability, that you did it more than once? A question you don't need to answer here.

If you really are under 18 at the time of travel then it's open to question whether you should be prosecuted. If you are using a 16-17 railcard but are now too old to have one then that's not going to help matters.

No I am 17 and I have a 16-17 saver card now

I have also checked all my train tickets and I never used the discounted 16-17 saver ticket that I didn’t have after the event on 24/10/23. I used it multiple times before, however I never used it after being told. I have brought child tickets however for my 14 year old sister as she does not have a bank card?

The email I got was surrounding buying discounted tickets on the 16-17 saver which I haven’t done for over 6 months

 

[Pushpit]

No I am 17 and I have a 16-17 saver card now

I have also checked all my train tickets and I never used the discounted 16-17 saver ticket that I didn’t have after the event on 24/10/23. I used it multiple times before, however I never used it after being told. I have brought child tickets however for my 14 year old sister as she does not have a bank card?

The email I got was surrounding buying discounted tickets on the 16-17 saver which I haven’t done for over 6 months

OK, I bet those child tickets are raising a red flag, as well as the previous purchases.

As to what to do now, the options I guess are
1) Ignore the letter
2) Respond in the same imprecise way as the letter to you: "Please rest assured that since 24 October 2023 all tickets have been correctly purchased. And I'm 17 years old now, I was 16 years old on 24 October 2023", if the last point is correct. Keep it as short as that.
3) Give a full and comprehensive reply, giving details of travel before 24 October, but risk civil action to recover trips made before 24 October.

If it does go to the civil process then the train operatiing company - unlike with criminal cases - has to present a full wadge of documentation at an early stage in the process, and you get effectively a further go at reacting at that stage, without any real downside do it. Hence the attraction of 1) and 2). That's on the basis of the information you have already provided in this thread.

I'm not the expert here, my inclination is option 2) but it would be interesting to hear what other contributors think

 

[Titfield]

I would be surprised if a TOC decided to go down the civil action route in this case given (1) the age of the passenger (2) the internal costs of the action vs the amount of money at stake and / or likely to recover.

I think I would reply though because if ever the OP came to their attention again (even if inadvertently) then any discretion would be less likely to be shown if there was a "file closed due no response" tag on their file.

Furthermore responding will give the OP peace of mind.

I am not sure whether to fess up to all the evaded fares (option 3) or just go with the Option 2.

The OP could offer to pay for all the differences between the fares paid and the fares which should have been paid but this runs the risk of being hit with a disproportionate admin fee.

I think on balance I would go with option 2 and hope that the TOC at least had the satisfaction that the OP is unlikely to do this again.

 

[user2234]

I checked my account and after the event I was caught without the railcard I never then purchased a ticket again with the railcard option, I purchased about 8 tickets before it with the 16-17 railcard option on it however never got ticket searched on the trains. I have not been on a train since the incident, and the only tickets that have been brought have been for my younger sibling.

She is 15 and doesn’t have a bank card so my parents transfer money into my account and she buys tickets on my account with my card.
However it says the investigated incident is for using railcard prices when I did not have one

 

[glasgowniteowl]

If they look on the account, when will they see when you start buying tickets for your sister?

 

[user2234]

If they look on the account, when will they see when you start buying tickets for your sister?

From the 25th November

From the 25th November

That’s the first ticket I got her as it was a child one

 

[glasgowniteowl]

So you say that after being caught buying discounted tickets you were not entitled to, you say you stopped using the train but shortly after stopping using the train yourself you started buying child tickets for your sister, that does look a little suspicious

 

[user2234]

If they look on the account, when will they see when you start buying tickets for your sister?

However I think they were reviewing tickets from be

So you say that after being caught buying discounted tickets you were not entitled to, you say you stopped using the train but shortly after stopping using the train yourself you started buying child tickets for your sister, that does look a little suspicious

I have travelled on train since about 4-5 times but I brought adult ones each time

 

[reb0118]

In theory could the TOC wait until the OP turns eighteen then prosecute him for fraud as an adult?

 

[Fermiboson]

Even if OP was already adult it’s very unlikely TOCs would prosecute under fraud.

 

[Doomotron]

In theory could the TOC wait until the OP turns eighteen then prosecute him for fraud as an adult?

I don't think they'd consider it worth doing. That's assuming they even could do it in the first place.

 

[AlterEgo]

In theory could the TOC wait until the OP turns eighteen then prosecute him for fraud as an adult?

Train companies don’t prosecute for fraud. The police do that. I don’t think we have ever seen a private fraud prosecution on the railway; they have always been police/CPS.

 

[Titfield]

Train companies don’t prosecute for fraud. The police do that. I don’t think we have ever seen a private fraud prosecution on the railway; they have always been police/CPS.

and even if they did issue a private prosecution the CPS could take it over and discontinue it as not being in the public interest.

 

[Pushpit]

However I think they were reviewing tickets from be


I have travelled on train since about 4-5 times but I brought adult ones each time

My take on all of this is that having done a digital trawl on your account, they are seeing a number of red flags - previous transactions, tickets for your sister, and they are now on a fishing trip to find out whether they can get some money off you for fare evading. From your posts, it's clear that there isn't anything they can take forward, unless you give them the evidence to dig deeper and/or make inferences as to what they think you have done.

Given the vague nature of their email with its lack of specifics, the fact that you are not protected by PACE (a statutory interview process), I'm still sticking with option 2.

 

[user2234]

Hello I got a response,

Dear,



Thank you for your response ,before we continue any further could you please supply some form of ID That includes a date of birth. This will aid in us our investigation and help towards and informed conclusion as you have a few misused 16-17 Railcard Journeys and some sporadic child bought tickets.



When we ask for proof of Date of birth it is because it could affect your case and is done before we send you any amounts, we deem you may owe.



Improper use of this facility is also classed as fraudulent activity. If you cannot provide this within the next 7 days, then the final amount will be calculated at the full cost.

What do you all think?

 

[30907]

Hello I got a response,

Dear,

Thank you for your response ,before we continue any further could you please supply some form of ID That includes a date of birth. This will aid in us our investigation and help towards and informed conclusion as you have a few misused 16-17 Railcard Journeys and some sporadic child bought tickets.

I see no harm in proving your DOB.

If you haven't already done so, an explanation about the child tickets might be prudent.

 

[user2234]

I see no harm in proving your DOB.

If you haven't already done so, an explanation about the child tickets might be prudent.

By what they are saying am I basically only going to get a fine after I show my DOB and no Court or Criminal record type of stuff?

Thank you for your response ,before we continue any further could you please supply some form of ID That includes a date of birth. This will aid in us our investigation and help towards and informed conclusion as you have a few misused 16-17 Railcard Journeys and some sporadic child bought tickets.



When we ask for proof of Date of birth it is because it could affect your case and is done before we send you any amounts, we deem you may owe.



Improper use of this facility is also classed as fraudulent activity. If you cannot provide this within the next 7 days, then the final amount will be calculated at the full cost.


Based on their email are they asking for my date of birth and then are they going to charge me the full cost of the tickets I went wrong on before the incident I got caught in?