Using 'London Terminals' tickets across multiple stations

[ffranchi]

I'd like some clarification regarding tickets to/from "London Terminals" via "any permitted route": is it allowed to pass through other London terminals and change trains there, or must the journey always start/end at the first available terminal?

To better explain, here are two recent journeys I made. Both went smoothly, but I'm not entirely sure if they were within the rules.

1. Ticket from Maidenhead to London Terminals (via any permitted route)
I needed to reach London Bridge, so I took a train to Paddington, then the Elizabeth Line, changing at Farringdon for a final Thameslink service to London Bridge. While my paper ticket didn't work at the Elizabeth Line barriers, I got through with the help of an agent and continued without issues (it worked fine at London Bridge).

2. Ticket from London Terminals to Cambridge (via any permitted route)
I started at London Bridge and could have taken a direct Thameslink to Cambridge, but it was slow, so I opted for a faster route: Thameslink to St Pancras, change to King's Cross, then an express service to Cambridge. Again, the ticket didn’t work at the St Pancras barriers, but an agent let me through, and it worked fine at King's Cross and Cambridge.

Were these journeys legitimate, or was I just lucky to get away with it?

Thanks!

 

[alistairlees]

Neither was legitimate.

The first one is not valid beyond Paddington. The second one was only valid from St Pancras. You were fortunate.

 

[Watershed]

In general, on a London Terminals ticket, you can continue through one London Terminal to reach an adjoining London Terminal - e.g. from stations like Ashford through London Bridge to reach Cannon Street, Waterloo East, Charing Cross, Blackfriars or City Thameslink. However, your ticket expires at the last station classified as a London Terminal, and can't be used beyond that station - for example, you can't use a London Terminals ticket beyond City Thameslink, as Farringdon isn't a London Terminal.

The same also applies in reverse; you can't start your journey at a London Terminal on the 'wrong' side of London for your destination and then travel through stations that aren't London Terminals to reach the 'correct' London Terminal.

For your first journey (Maidenhead to London), if you look at your ticket you'll see it actually wasn't issued to London Terminals. It would have been issued to London Paddington, and thus isn't valid to continue beyond Paddington. Even if it were a London Terminals ticket (as would be the case if bought from Reading or beyond), it also wouldn't be valid beyond Paddington as Bond Street isn't a London Terminal. The staff at the Elizabeth line barriers at Paddington shouldn't have allowed you to continue your journey with a London Paddington ticket that had already expired.

To take the trains you used, you'd have needed a ticket from Maidenhead to London Underground Zone 1 - this covers the journey to Paddington, plus a journey within London Zone 1 on the Underground. However, there is also an 'interavailability' rule that allows you to use Underground tickets on the Elizabeth line between Paddington and Abbey Wood/Stratford, and on Thameslink between Finsbury Park/West Hampstead and London Bridge/Elephant & Castle. Alternatively, you could have used Oyster or contactless PAYG for the journey from Paddington to London Bridge.

For your second journey, your ticket wasn't valid until St Pancras/Kings Cross. Effectively, the above rule applies in reverse; therefore, you can't start in London Bridge because you pass through Farringdon (a station that isn't a London Terminal) on your way to St Pancras. You would have needed to use Oyster/contactless PAYG from London Bridge to St Pancras, or a ticket from London Underground Zone 1 to Cambridge (this is valid on Thameslink from London Bridge because of the 'interavailability' rule), or from London Thameslink to Cambridge. London Thameslink is a special kind of ticket origin/destination which is valid to travel to/from any of the stations between London Bridge/Elephant & Castle and St Pancras/Kings Cross.

If you're not sure which ticket to buy, you should enter the London station you want to travel to/from on any ticket buying site, and it'll show the journey together with the correct ticket you need.

 

[ffranchi]

Neither was legitimate.

The first one is not valid beyond Paddington. The second one was only valid from St Pancras. You were fortunate.

Thank you for your response. Could you please elaborate on why these journeys weren't legitimate? While I had a feeling something might be off, I'm unclear on the specific rules I might have broken.

In your message, you mentioned that only one station was a valid start/end in each case. If that's true, why issue tickets from/to "London Terminals" rather than just the specific station?

For example, in the first journey, would a journey to Waterloo via Slough and Windsor not be valid?

Similarly, in the second case, if I had started at King's Cross with the express service to Cambridge (without the leg from London Bridge to St Pancras), why wouldn't that be legitimate?

Thanks again for the clarification.

 

[rratgerg]

In your message, you mentioned that only one station was a valid start/end in each case. If that's true, why issue tickets from/to "London Terminals" rather than just the specific station?

The Maidenhead to London ticket was not issued to London Terminals. There are no available fares for that route (see here)

 

[ffranchi]

In general, on a London Terminals ticket, you can continue through one London Terminal to reach an adjoining London Terminal - e.g. from stations like Ashford through London Bridge to reach Cannon Street, Waterloo East, Charing Cross, Blackfriars or City Thameslink. However, your ticket expires at the last station classified as a London Terminal, and can't be used beyond that station - for example, you can't use a London Terminals ticket beyond City Thameslink, as Farringdon isn't a London Terminal.

The same also applies in reverse; you can't start your journey at a London Terminal on the 'wrong' side of London for your destination and then travel through stations that aren't London Terminals to reach the 'correct' London Terminal.

For your first journey (Maidenhead to London), if you look at your ticket you'll see it actually wasn't issued to London Terminals. It would have been issued to London Paddington, and thus isn't valid to continue beyond Paddington. Even if it were a London Terminals ticket (as would be the case if bought from Reading or beyond), it also wouldn't be valid beyond Paddington as Bond Street isn't a London Terminal. The staff at the Elizabeth line barriers at Paddington shouldn't have allowed you to continue your journey with a London Paddington ticket that had already expired.

To take the trains you used, you'd have needed a ticket from Maidenhead to London Underground Zone 1 - this covers the journey to Paddington, plus a journey within London Zone 1 on the Underground. However, there is also an 'interavailability' rule that allows you to use Underground tickets on the Elizabeth line between Paddington and Abbey Wood/Stratford, and on Thameslink between Finsbury Park/West Hampstead and London Bridge/Elephant & Castle. Alternatively, you could have used Oyster or contactless PAYG for the journey from Paddington to London Bridge.

For your second journey, your ticket wasn't valid until St Pancras/Kings Cross. Effectively, the above rule applies in reverse; therefore, you can't start in London Bridge because you pass through Farringdon (a station that isn't a London Terminal) on your way to St Pancras. You would have needed to use Oyster/contactless PAYG from London Bridge to St Pancras, or a ticket from London Underground Zone 1 to Cambridge (this is valid on Thameslink from London Bridge because of the 'interavailability' rule), or from London Thameslink to Cambridge. London Thameslink is a special kind of ticket origin/destination which is valid to travel to/from any of the stations between London Bridge/Elephant & Castle and St Pancras/Kings Cross.

If you're not sure which ticket to buy, you should enter the London station you want to travel to/from on any ticket buying site, and it'll show the journey together with the correct ticket you need.

Thank you very much for the extensive clarifications, now it's all clear.
Of course my previous message in reply to alistairlees is now redundant (I was writing it when you replied, and it went through 2 minutes afterwards).

The Maidenhead to London ticket was not issued to London Terminals. There are no available fares for that route (see here)

Thank you, you're probably right. Now that I think about it, the ticket might have been from Reading to London Terminals. A friend handled all the purchases in advance—we walked from Windsor along the Thames, and he may have bought the return tickets from Reading to allow for a bit more flexibility on where to end the walk. Either way, we boarded at Maidenhead, and I’m certain the ticket was for London Terminals.

 

[Somewhere]

If the ticket was issued from Reading to London Terminals, that is to give the option of using a Waterloo train, to access all the Southern Region terminals, such as changing at Clapham Junction to get to Victoria, or changing at Waterloo for Charing Cross, London Bridge and again for Cannon Street, Blackfriars or City Thameslink.
A London Terminals ticket basically allows you to get to London, but not to cross London. So for Thameslink, it doesn't allow you to pass through Farringdon, and for the Elizabeth Line it doesn't allow to to go beyond Paddington from the west, or Liverpool Street from the east.

 

[30907]

For example, in the first journey, would a journey to Waterloo via Slough and Windsor not be valid?

An interesting question. A route up to 3 miles longer than the shortest route A-B is always allowed.
The route via Windsor is 2.5 miles longer than the direct route to Waterloo - and our forum website certainly allows it.

(It is 10 miles longer than the direct route to Paddington, but that doesn't matter - I've learnt something today!)

 

[Watershed]

An interesting question. A route up to 3 miles longer than the shortest route A-B is always allowed.
The route via Windsor is 2.5 miles longer than the direct route to Waterloo - and our forum website certainly allows it.

(It is 10 miles longer than the direct route to Paddington, but that doesn't matter - I've learnt something today!)

Travel via Windsor is disallowed for certain journeys by a "negative easement", and if it's permitted, it will only be for tickets issued to "London Terminals" or "London Underground Zone 1" or similar - not for tickets to "London Paddington".

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Travel via Windsor is disallowed for certain journeys by a "negative easement", and if it's permitted, it will only be for tickets issued to "London Terminals" or "London Underground Zone 1" or similar - not for tickets to "London Paddington".

I think the question came up some years ago on this forum as to whether a Zones 1-6 Travelcard from a station to the west of West Drayton was valid via Windsor stations. I think the eventual conclusion was that it was, but has that changed?

 

[Watershed]

I think the question came up some years ago on this forum as to whether a Zones 1-6 Travelcard from a station to the west of West Drayton was valid via Windsor stations. I think the eventual conclusion was that it was, but has that changed?

The rules for outboundary Travelcards have changed over the years. It's now the case that there is a specific paragraph in the Routeing Guide instructions that addresses this situation:

The route you take between your origin station and the point at which you first cross into the London zonal area (Zones 1-9) should be the route valid for a journey to ‘London Terminals’, regardless of the zone(s) to which the ticket is actually valid or the combination of London Travelcards being used. This does not affect validity within the London zonal area, where you are permitted to use any eligible National Rail service within the zone(s) for which your Travelcard is valid.

However that refers to "London Terminals" and thus doesn't discuss the position if there isn't actually a ticket to London Terminals from your origin station (e.g. in the case of Maidenhead). It also isn't clear whether easements that refer to travel to/from London Terminals are relevant to an outboundary Travelcard.

Funnily enough the rules for journey planners weren't changed when the above paragraph was added to the public-facing Routeing Guide, so journey planners will still offer itineraries such as those you describe. If you rely on such an itinerary there's no need to refer to the Routeing Guide as it's simply contractually valid.

 

[yorkie]

I think the question came up some years ago on this forum as to whether a Zones 1-6 Travelcard from a station to the west of West Drayton was valid via Windsor stations. I think the eventual conclusion was that it was, but has that changed?

Any such ticket that is valid via an unintended route would soon have it's validity changed, if the validity was divulged on this forum or if the passenger encountered a ticket check or barrier during the journey.

I make no comment on the validity of any specific ticket (you have not mentioned one) because, if I did, and if it was valid, this would be a very quick way to invalidate it for future journeys....

The best way to discuss anomalies is in person, for example at forum fares workshops, forum walks, forum meals etc