Using Visa Debit Cards On Train

[LondonJohn]

Whilst Visa Electron Cards are the ones previously issued for Electronic use only, some banks are now issueing standard Visa Debit cards with raised numbers on them.

These are known as Authorise All Transactions (AAT) cards. They are usually given to holders of Basic Bank Accounts or to people that the banks do not wish to go overdrawn by spending money that they do not have. Banks will usually not disclose to a customer what type of card they have.

I recently bought a ticket from a SWT Guard on the train who seemed to have a different type of card machine to the ones had previously. This produced a "usual card transaction" slip with an authorisation number on it as opposed to the credit card receipt issued on the orange ticket stock.

It also had a connection socket similar to a phone socket so I assumed this was a live real time authorisation though working for the bank concerned on checking my account the transaction was not authorised at point of sale.

 

[Zoe]

Whilst Visa Electron Cards are the ones previously issued for Electronic use only, some banks are now issueing standard Visa Debit cards with raised numbers on them.

These are known as Authorise All Transactions (AAT) cards. They are usually given to holders of Basic Bank Accounts or to people that the banks do not wish to go overdrawn by spending money that they do not have. Banks will usually not disclose to a customer what type of card they have.

If the card is not marked as "Electronic Use Only" and has embossed numbers then how are they going to prevent a manual imprint getting taken and the card used without authorization or is taking a manual imprint no longer allowed these days?

 

[island]

If the card is not marked as "Electronic Use Only" and has embossed numbers then how are they going to prevent a manual imprint getting taken and the card used without authorization or is taking a manual imprint no longer allowed these days?

Anyone who isn't an airline has to get phone authorization for all manual imprint transactions these days.

 

[bicbasher]

TOC's arn't keen on new technology, as apart from the cost of the kit, a lot of TOC's have to pay staff if new technology is introduced (not FGW any more). We (FGW) had new chip&pin machines about 2 years ago, and the Avantex machines are about 5 years with us.

This is very true. When London Overground took over the stations south of New Cross Gate as part of the ELL extension, they refused to replace SHERE with FasTIS citing cost and time required to train the former Southern staff.

Instead they purchased the licence to sell Oyster on that equipment which doesn't provide a full Oyster service. (no registration/annual travelcards/discount tickets etc)

 

[LondonJohn]

Anyone who isn't an airline has to get phone authorization for all manual imprint transactions these days.

Not sure about the last statement but any retailer who doesn't process cards in the correct way is liable for chargebacks in the case that an AAT card is used offline.

Incidently, if you use a card on board an aircraft for in flight purchases, it appears to authorise but infact the transaction is manually input when the point of sale terminal is returned back to the airline's headquarters a couple of days later at this stage it is done as a live transaction. At the time of inputting the transaction if it is declined for lack of funds the airline will have to bear the loss, or they will contact the passenger/authorities from the data regarding the booking (passport etc).

 

[Zoe]

Not sure about the last statement but any retailer who doesn't process cards in the correct way is liable for chargebacks in the case that an AAT card is used offline.

So taking a manual imprint is no longer considered the correct way of processing a card even if the usual authorization system is not working?

 

[LondonJohn]

So taking a manual imprint is no longer considered the correct way of processing a card even if the usual authorization system is not working?

I have not seen any manual vouchers processed for a long time. Indeed I am not sure if any merchants process manual vouchers for their card customers. There must be some sort of back up for systems failure but I guess its up to the retailer in this case the TOC to have adequate systems in place because if they process transactions outside their agreement they risk getting them declined at a later date.

 

[island]

So taking a manual imprint is no longer considered the correct way of processing a card even if the usual authorization system is not working?

No, you should phone for authorization, and if your terminal is broken, take a manual imprint as well.

 

[WillPS]

I have not seen any manual vouchers processed for a long time. Indeed I am not sure if any merchants process manual vouchers for their card customers. There must be some sort of back up for systems failure but I guess its up to the retailer in this case the TOC to have adequate systems in place because if they process transactions outside their agreement they risk getting them declined at a later date.

Medium sized places will still have an imprint system to use as a backup if EFTPOS fails. I don't think places like supermarkets do though (never saw any evidence of one in my time at Sainsburys).

Every card I've had since my 12th birthday has had raised numbers - including the Solo cards I had which could be used as a Maestro card abroad.

 

[bicbasher]

I haven't seen an imprint system for years. When international customers use cards that don't use chip and pin, mag stripe is usually accepted, although this is being less common as I've witnessed European customers in shops using chip and pin.

I've been offered mag stripe as an alternative when they've had problems with the chip and pin terminal.

 

[IanXC]

I haven't seen an imprint system for years. When international customers visit shops in London that don't use Chip and Pin, mag stripe is used instead.

Even I with my Visa Debit card have been offered mag stripe as an alternative when their C&P has had issues.

Yep. The usual instruction for UK merchants is that if a card has a chip it must be used, if not then you can swipe.

There is of course the little secret of Chip and Signature cards, but its a joke that so few merchants know how to use them correctly.

 

[WillPS]

Yep. The usual instruction for UK merchants is that if a card has a chip it must be used, if not then you can swipe.

There is of course the little secret of Chip and Signature cards, but its a joke that so few merchants know how to use them correctly.

How can they go wrong? In every application I've seen they've just printed a signature receipt straight away rather than prompting for a PIN. What could go wrong?

 

[bicbasher]

Do any of the TOC ticket offices still offer the mag stripe sig as an alternative? LUL had no problem offering me that on more than one occasion.

 

[IanXC]

How can they go wrong? In every application I've seen they've just printed a signature receipt straight away rather than prompting for a PIN. What could go wrong?

The merchant doesn't train their staff correctly, and they then either refuse to accept that Chip and Sig exists, or assume that the receipt for signature is an error and cancel the transaction.

I still deal with complaints about this very issue.

 

[headshot119]

How can they go wrong? In every application I've seen they've just printed a signature receipt straight away rather than prompting for a PIN. What could go wrong?

You can swipe the card and then the card number on the merchant receipt won't match the card number on the card. The expiry date on the merchant receipt won't match the card. The person in front of you is the wrong sex to the name on the card. Do I need to go on?

 

[WillPS]

You can swipe the card and then the card number on the merchant receipt won't match the card number on the card. The expiry date on the merchant receipt won't match the card. The person in front of you is the wrong sex to the name on the card. Do I need to go on?

You're talking about swiping - ironically illustrating the point being discussed which is the relatively unknown Chip & Signature compromise (which banks can choose to issue to elderly/disabled customers who would struggle with PINs, or foreign banks, particularly Bank of China).

My point was that the card looks like any other but rather than prompting for a PIN the EFT/POS will spit out a signature receipt (as they would in the olden days). I don't understand why a retailer would kick up a fuss; do as the machine says is normally the motto where I've worked!

 

[island]

Some retailer employees don't know about signature verification!

 

[LondonJohn]

Last time I was in Sainsburys and their card processing system failed they were unable to accept cards. This meant the shopping being processed through the tills and staff accompanying customers to the ATMs outside. With subsequent announcements that cash only would be accepted at the check outs.

I have not seen any of the 2/3 part manual slips with the carbonated bit in for many years now. Indeed I am pretty sure that most card aquirers do not process them for retailers now as its too great a risk. I remember 20 years ago you could use your card for fuel in the USA and it would be 2-3 months before it came on your statement. The risk of fraud for such delayed payments is too great nowadays so I think the agreement that the TOC will sign with their card processing people would not allow for manual vouchers.

A swipe would still be OK as there is an electronic record of the transaction but in the scenario that I mentioned above when you use your card say inflight the longer it is until the airline processes this real time the greater the risk to them of not getting the revenue for it.

 

[WillPS]

I don't think anybody was suggesting that manual slips are a way forward - it was brought up in a 'how come' way by Zoe. On the contrary, what they need to do is implement a method of online authorisation on the field.

Not an impossible task, even with the limitations of GSM/3G frequencies the timeout level could be set at something like 2 mins, and the guard given multiple card terminals so he can leave one with a customer while its processing and move on to the next. Not at all beyond the wit of man.

 

[tannedfrog]

Not sure about the last statement but any retailer who doesn't process cards in the correct way is liable for chargebacks in the case that an AAT card is used offline.

Incidently, if you use a card on board an aircraft for in flight purchases, it appears to authorise but infact the transaction is manually input when the point of sale terminal is returned back to the airline's headquarters a couple of days later at this stage it is done as a live transaction. At the time of inputting the transaction if it is declined for lack of funds the airline will have to bear the loss, or they will contact the passenger/authorities from the data regarding the booking (passport etc).

Ryanair do manual imprints not card terminals

 

[barrykas]

I have not seen any of the 2/3 part manual slips with the carbonated bit in for many years now. Indeed I am pretty sure that most card aquirers do not process them for retailers now as its too great a risk. I remember 20 years ago you could use your card for fuel in the USA and it would be 2-3 months before it came on your statement. The risk of fraud for such delayed payments is too great nowadays so I think the agreement that the TOC will sign with their card processing people would not allow for manual vouchers.

We still use manual vouchers occasionally...generally when someone wants to buy or top up several Oyster cards and pay by card in one transaction. It saves time and reduces the risk of the card getting blocked for having "too many" transactions at one merchant in a short space of time.

Cheers,

Barry

 

[LondonJohn]

I don't think anybody was suggesting that manual slips are a way forward - it was brought up in a 'how come' way by Zoe. On the contrary, what they need to do is implement a method of online authorisation on the field.

Not an impossible task, even with the limitations of GSM/3G frequencies the timeout level could be set at something like 2 mins, and the guard given multiple card terminals so he can leave one with a customer while its processing and move on to the next. Not at all beyond the wit of man.

Absoloutely but this means investment which the TOC don't want to do as it means more outlay. If you can't pay by card on the train then thats your problem not the TOCs.. things being weighted in favour of the TOC as opposed to the passengers again.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I was on a Grand Central HST the other day and went to the buffet for a cup of tea (incidentally it was very nice and only cost £1). Sat on the counter, next to the receipt pad and little cups containing the cash was... A great big manual credit card machine, where you slot the card in and put the paper voucher over the top. It was so long since I last saw one I was amazed! Even had a "GrandCentral Trains" printing plate on it.

 

[IanXC]

You're talking about swiping - ironically illustrating the point being discussed which is the relatively unknown Chip & Signature compromise (which banks can choose to issue to elderly/disabled customers who would struggle with PINs, or foreign banks, particularly Bank of China).

My point was that the card looks like any other but rather than prompting for a PIN the EFT/POS will spit out a signature receipt (as they would in the olden days). I don't understand why a retailer would kick up a fuss; do as the machine says is normally the motto where I've worked!

Exactly! Nice little illustration eh!

Manual imprinters are issued to merchants, my impression is that the primary use is when the Acquirer's equipment/network has failed, and that in that case the Acquirer would stand any loss.

 

[route:oxford]

You can swipe the card and then the card number on the merchant receipt won't match the card number on the card. The expiry date on the merchant receipt won't match the card. The person in front of you is the wrong sex to the name on the card. Do I need to go on?

Which is why the retailer undertakes the standard (pre-chip & pin) processes when handling a chip&sig transaction.

Refusing a chip&sig card could potentially be a breach of various disability laws - which is why it is very important that staff are properly trained in handling merchant systems.

 

[Flamingo]

Not an impossible task, even with the limitations of GSM/3G frequencies the timeout level could be set at something like 2 mins, and the guard given multiple card terminals so he can leave one with a customer while its processing and move on to the next. Not at all beyond the wit of man.

How much kit do you think we are able to carry around? :roll:

 

[headshot119]

You're talking about swiping - ironically illustrating the point being discussed which is the relatively unknown Chip & Signature compromise (which banks can choose to issue to elderly/disabled customers who would struggle with PINs, or foreign banks, particularly Bank of China).

My point was that the card looks like any other but rather than prompting for a PIN the EFT/POS will spit out a signature receipt (as they would in the olden days). I don't understand why a retailer would kick up a fuss; do as the machine says is normally the motto where I've worked!

If the terminal prints out a signature receipt after the card has been inserted into the chip reader, I just have the customer sign it and check the signature. As only cards authorized by the bank for this will do this.

Sorry I thought you you where talking about swiping.

Which is why the retailer undertakes the standard (pre-chip & pin) processes when handling a chip&sig transaction.

Refusing a chip&sig card could potentially be a breach of various disability laws - which is why it is very important that staff are properly trained in handling merchant systems.

See above, I thought we were talking about swipes, not Chip & signs.

 

[Flamingo]

If you can't pay by card on the train then thats your problem not the TOCs.. things being weighted in favour of the TOC as opposed to the passengers again.

I can not see how not being able to take money from passengers is weighting things in a TOC's favour? Please explain that one to me.

 

[WillPS]

How much kit do you think we are able to carry around? :roll:

They needn't be as huge as the chunky things most rail operators have at present. How big is a mobile phone? Shove a slot for a card reader and that'd be sufficient.

 

[Flamingo]

They needn't be as huge as the chunky things most rail operators have at present. How big is a mobile phone? Shove a slot for a card reader and that'd be sufficient.

Is this something somebody makes, (give a link to the brand) or are the TOC's now expected to design and build them as well?