Various consultations on the May 2022 East Coast Mainline timetable

[LNW-GW Joint]

Why is it as soon as people read the TPE consultation they automatically assume it’s a way of getting rid of the Mk5 coaches, there always seems to be a constant witch hunt against them on these forums.

Well, TPE will be running many fewer miles (unless there are increases elsewhere we don't know about).
They are unlikely to reduce 802 or 397 operation.
The original plan was that the 3 new fleets would displace many 185s, but the Mk5s were never fully deployed, so the 185s are still there.
Either way, there should be a surplus of diesel stock to cascade onwards.
A solution is needed for Nottingham-Liverpool, too.
It will also be GBR calling the shots in the future, not the individual TOCs.

 

[Alfie1014]

Connections are also a mixed bag, for example, an hour wait for at Peterborough for a Cambridge-Edinburgh journey yet just a 10 minute wait in the southbound direction

On the other hand the connections into the 2 hourly Pboro - Ipswich service are greatly improved, I wonder what paths the Norwich - Nottingham service will have, close to todays or changed?

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

I noticed the CrossCountry May 2022 timetable revert back to pre-covid levels. There are a few extras.

My main concern is we will go back to overcrowded 4 and 5-car trains which CrossCountry will not want. Personally the services should have returned when extra capacity was introduced.

The 09:25 from Penzance to Newcastle (1S49) is extended through to Dundee and is an HST on weekdays (of course subject to one being available). That's at least extra capacity between Penzance and Plymouth (at present 1S49 is a single Voyager to Plymouth where it couples to another Voyager).

 

[westv]

The LNER Kings X/Hull service will be worse.
Morning service will call at two more stations and arrive later. Evening service would change from 17:19 to 18:09.

 

[takno]

The LNER Kings X/Hull service will be worse.
Morning service will call at two more stations and arrive later. Evening service would change from 17:19 to 18:09.

1809 sounds to me like a much better time to leave. It means you can safely stay wherever you are in central London until at least 5, and probably 5.30.

 

[Failed Unit]

Well, TPE will be running many fewer miles (unless there are increases elsewhere we don't know about).
They are unlikely to reduce 802 or 397 operation.
The original plan was that the 3 new fleets would displace many 185s, but the Mk5s were never fully deployed, so the 185s are still there.
Either way, there should be a surplus of diesel stock to cascade onwards.
A solution is needed for Nottingham-Liverpool, too.
It will also be GBR calling the shots in the future, not the individual TOCs.

Not sure what is wrong with 158s on Nottingham- Liverpool. If they really are going to be 5 car then the are better trains then the 185. More seats. Corridor connections. Sprinter speed limits. Fit in with general EMR stock. Cheaper to lease. The 185s don’t actually provide any improvement over the 158 in my opinion.

Now I have a better look at the main timetables the LNER does look a good compromise. I hope the can sort out Newark - Retford as if does send out a bad message that rail isn’t interested in local journeys.

GTRs is disappointing again. 25 minutes wait at Stevenage for a northbound service to Peterborough. Extra stop at Ally Pally on the Cambridge service? Why? Unless even if it didn’t stop it wouldn’t get between Potters Bar and Finsbury Park any quicker. Great to see Welwyn- Sevenoaks. Hopefully December will see Cambridge - Maidstone.

1820 for last Lincoln service is interesting.
1610 for London - Cleethorpes seems early but the 1943 could I guess be extended in the future.

Hopefully if LNER get approval for the extra path in the mid 2020s for Middlesbrough it may improve some of the compromises.

Shame XC still can’t get a decent path to speed up their services. A long wait at Derby on the Newcastle- Reading makes to think why did they bother to improve the speed limit on Birmingham- Derby.

Generally look to be more winners then losers. The fact the north of Scotland trains gain stops but end to end don’t lose time is great.

 

[swt_passenger]

Just thinking the Northern all stations to Chathill in the evening is a bit earlier than it could be at 1717 (previously 1757) I’m assuming it’s probably aimed at commuters on the traditional “9 til 5”, so should it leave a bit later?

But perhaps the problem is it runs in an additional path to the normal hourly Morpeth train, so could only run an hour later?

 

[v199629]

How many freight paths are there hourly between Northallerton and Newcastle/Newcastle and Edinburgh?

These are not consulted so I assume they will remain the same.

 

[IanXC]

Just thinking the Northern all stations to Chathill in the evening is a bit earlier than it could be at 1717 (previously 1757) I’m assuming it’s probably aimed at commuters on the traditional “9 til 5”, so should it leave a bit later?

But perhaps the problem is it runs in an additional path to the normal hourly Morpeth train, so could only run an hour later?

For many years it ran earlier than 1757, it was moved later in a timetable change a few years ago and there was some disquiet about that I seem to recall.

 

[swt_passenger]

For many years it ran earlier than 1757, it was moved later in a timetable change a few years ago and there was some disquiet about that I seem to recall.

That’s more reassuring then. If the relatively few passengers concerned are able to work around the train times it won’t be a problem.

 

[IanXC]

Has anyone seen any sign of the Grand Central and Hull Trains timetables?

I guess they're not obliged to consult in the same way so maybe we won't see them.

 

[Purple Orange]

Does anyone have any rational reason for having XC run 2 tph between York & Newcastle with 4-car diesels with circa 200 seats, while TPE runs just 1 tph between York & Newcastle with a 5-car train with circa 340 seats on electric power?

Surely that should be the other way around? It’s like we want to spew more carbon in to the air.

I’d be amazed if the Birmingham market was bigger than the Manchester market from Newcastle.

 

[1D53]

- TPE also propose an additional hourly service between York and Scarborough. It seems logical that the Manchester to York service should be extended to Scarborough.

I'm not sure that'll be possible with the existing TPE service and already committed Northern service. There are some lengthy Absolute Block sections and only one platform at Malton.

 

[IanXC]

I'm not sure that'll be possible with the existing TPE service and already committed Northern service. There are some lengthy Absolute Block sections and only one platform at Malton.

Perhaps TPE's additional service is in place of the Northern service. 1tph Scarborough to the core and 1tph Scarborough to York. After the withdrawal of the York-Newcastle portion presumably TPE will find they have crews and units that could work this...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Does anyone have any rational reason for having XC run 2 tph between York & Newcastle with 4-car diesels with circa 200 seats, while TPE runs just 1 tph between York & Newcastle with a 5-car train with circa 340 seats on electric power?
Surely that should be the other way around? It’s like we want to spew more carbon in to the air.
I’d be amazed if the Birmingham market was bigger than the Manchester market from Newcastle.

I doubt if traction comes into the debate. TPE will still be using its bi-modes somewhere.
XC might well be running 8/10-coach trains before long, if they get the cascaded VT/EM 22x, and they have some 5-car 221s already.
And it will be what GBR wants that will dictate the future service patterns before long.

 

[Purple Orange]

I doubt if traction comes into the debate. TPE will still be using its bi-modes somewhere.
XC might well be running 8/10-coach trains before long, if they get the cascaded VT/EM 22x, and they have some 5-car 221s already.
And it will be what GBR wants that will dictate the future service patterns before long.

The traction has to be an issue - it’s more diesel running under wires and while TPE might utilise the 802s, they wont making as much of electric traction as they could/should. XC and Voyagers are completely the wrong TOC to prioritise here.

 

[Ianno87]

The LNER Kings X/Hull service will be worse.
Morning service will call at two more stations and arrive later. Evening service would change from 17:19 to 18:09.

1809 sounds to me like a much better time to leave. It means you can safely stay wherever you are in central London until at least 5, and probably 5.30.

1809 strikes me as a better departure time for a "business day" - finish in the office and time for a quick pint before the train.

Has anyone seen any sign of the Grand Central and Hull Trains timetables?

I guess they're not obliged to consult in the same way so maybe we won't see them.

Presumably their overall number of trains and stops won't change, so no need (as there are no "losers")

 

[westv]

1809 sounds to me like a much better time to leave. It means you can safely stay wherever you are in central London until at least 5, and probably 5.30.

When I had to do it every Friday I would much preferred getting home at 20:20ish (after the taxi ride) then I would have getting back at 21:05ish.

 

[YorksLad12]

The proposed LNER timetable seems a very mixed bag.

Pros...

Slight improvement in Leeds journey times by around 5 minutes

Cons...

Leeds services have just 20 minute turnarounds at Leeds

I think those two are the wrong way round. Last year we were promised 2 hours Leeds-London; a 5-minute improvement is still around 2h10 depending on which way the wind is blowing. And the turn-arounds can be done in 20 minutes (no seat reservations to issue now, for example), which releases at least one of the through platforms for an extra 10 minutes compared with now.

I wonder if there will be dinner on the 1839 from KX, if it's the replacement for the 1833? There's no 1749 equivalent in the timetable either.

Presumably their overall number of trains and stops won't change, so no need (as there are no "losers")

I think I read that both GC's Sunderland and Hull Trains's Hull services would have new, additional journeys.

 

[swt_passenger]

Does anyone know if in the full end state with 8 tph Long Distance paths, it’s likely to be a repeating pattern over a 2 hour period where the three open access operators use the same set of 3 slots in 2 hours all day? So will they be sort of competing amongst themselves for the best slots?

Any thoughts on whether or not some of the open access 1.5 tph will initially be spare?

 

[Killingworth]

The traction has to be an issue - it’s more diesel running under wires and while TPE might utilise the 802s, they wont making as much of electric traction as they could/should. XC and Voyagers are completely the wrong TOC to prioritise here.

It's always a balance. The new open access First East Coast will be electric throughout so should have priority on traction grounds. Crosscountry has priority on places served.

There's always focus on London as the priority. In the North it seems to be all about Manchester, then Leeds. I've Iived in Newcastle, Cumbria, North, East and South Yorkshire. Northern Powerhouse is about all of us, and connecting that potential to all parts of the nation, not only London.

What we need is for XC to get some bimodes. 125 mph running between Birmingham and Derby needs to be a priority for electrification, after the MML of course!

 

[IanXC]

I think those two are the wrong way round. Last year we were promised 2 hours Leeds-London; a 5-minute improvement is still around 2h10 depending on which way the wind is blowing. And the turn-arounds can be done in 20 minutes (no seat reservations to issue now, for example), which releases at least one of the through platforms for an extra 10 minutes compared with now.

I wonder if there will be dinner on the 1839 from KX, if it's the replacement for the 1833? There's no 1749 equivalent in the timetable either.


I think I read that both GC's Sunderland and Hull Trains's Hull services would have new, additional journeys.

If it's 20 minutes at Leeds it frees up platform 8 for alternate hours all together. The arrival from Kings Cross is pulling in as the next south bound departs currently. Resulting in platform 6 and 8 being occupied for the best part of an hour alternately. With 2tph (ignoring any extensions which clearly reduces platform occupancy even further) platform 8 wouldn't be needed as 6 could do it, this freeing up significant platform capacity.

 

[Halish Railway]

Am I right in thinking that a 1tp2h service between Bradford Forster Square and London was supposed to be introduced in this timetable change or will that be something for December 2022.

If I remember correctly it would have just been an extension of a Leeds terminator that would call at Peterborough & Wakefield en route.

 

[_toommm_]

I may have missed it, but Huddersfield extensions seemed to be absent. Is that still pencilled in as 1tpd each way via Leeds?

 

[YorksLad12]

If it's 20 minutes at Leeds it frees up platform 8 for alternate hours all together. The arrival from Kings Cross is pulling in as the next south bound departs currently. Resulting in platform 6 and 8 being occupied for the best part of an hour alternately. With 2tph (ignoring any extensions which clearly reduces platform occupancy even further) platform 8 wouldn't be needed as 6 could do it, this freeing up significant platform capacity.

Indeed, even better then! But pretty sure it won't happen, as we'll still have the every-two-hours Harrogate extension sitting for 7 to 9 minutes on arrival at Leeds. Unless that uses 10 cars and splits, so that the inbound half from Harrogate replaces the one that departs...

Am I right in thinking that a 1tp2h service between Bradford Forster Square and London was supposed to be introduced in this timetable change or will that be something for December 2022.

If I remember correctly it would have just been an extension of a Leeds terminator that would call at Peterborough & Wakefield en route.

I think it was supposed to be from May 2022. The current every-two-hours extension to harrogate would have gone to Bradford FS instead, and there would have been a new KX-Leeds-Harrogate service every two hours.

I drew out the original KX departures proposal as a line diagram earlier this year. Going to have to bin that now

 

[Fuzzytop]

I may have missed it, but Huddersfield extensions seemed to be absent. Is that still pencilled in as 1tpd each way via Leeds?

Yep. The evening service is shown as standalone rather than splitting from the Skipton one.

Huddersfield 0550
Dewsbury 0601
Leeds 0616a 0640d
Wakefield 0653
Doncaster 0713
Newark 0738
Kings X 0852

Kings X 1739
Stevenage 1801
Newark 1856
Doncaster 1920
Wakefield 1936
Leeds 1951a 2000d
Dewsbury 2015
Huddersfield 2025

 

[_toommm_]

Yep. The evening service is shown as standalone rather than splitting from the Skipton one.

Huddersfield 0550
Dewsbury 0601
Leeds 0616a 0640d
Wakefield 0653
Doncaster 0713
Newark 0738
Kings X 0852

Kings X 1739
Stevenage 1801
Newark 1856
Doncaster 1920
Wakefield 1936
Leeds 1951a 2000d
Dewsbury 2015
Huddersfield 2025

Ah, thanks. That’ll be why I missed it.

 

[TheBigD]

I think those two are the wrong way round. Last year we were promised 2 hours Leeds-London; a 5-minute improvement is still around 2h10 depending on which way the wind is blowing. And the turn-arounds can be done in 20 minutes (no seat reservations to issue now, for example), which releases at least one of the through platforms for an extra 10 minutes compared with now.

Is 20 minutes sufficient turnaround time? Will it be resilient enough?
The Newcastle terminaters have around 50 minutes and those at Edinburgh between 30 and 55 minutes.

 

[AverageTD]

I doubt if traction comes into the debate. TPE will still be using its bi-modes somewhere.
XC might well be running 8/10-coach trains before long, if they get the cascaded VT/EM 22x, and they have some 5-car 221s already.
And it will be what GBR wants that will dictate the future service patterns before long.

As much as I hope the voyagers end up with XC, it's no guarantee whatsoever. At least with TPE you know you're getting a fast, electric, higher capacity 5 car unit. With XC it could be much more crowded diesel 4 car unit. For any NE residents here, is Leeds/Huddersfield/Manchester/Liverpool a larger market or is it Sheffield/Derby/Brum?

 

[Aictos]

Is 20 minutes sufficient turnaround time? Will it be resilient enough?
The Newcastle terminaters have around 50 minutes and those at Edinburgh between 30 and 55 minutes.

Depends on how long they get in London and also if they interwork with other services eg will they have sets working Leeds services all day or will have them work London to Leeds to London to Newcastle to London?