Vegetation growing out of control?

[philthetube]

I would have thought that it would be possible to develop a road rail vehicle to cut buddleia and other plants from viaducts without great cost.

the vehicle would need cameras lights and mirrors, also a chainsaw and clamps to secure the tree being cut.

anything, including staff, not attached to the vehicle could be clamped to the track

 

[Belperpete]

I would have thought that it would be possible to develop a road rail vehicle to cut buddleia and other plants from viaducts without great cost

As pointed out previously, just cutting it back achieves little, or even encourages it to regrow even stronger.

It isn't just the railway suffering. Looking at old photos, it is noticeable how few trees and bushes there were around here a century or so ago, and I live in quite a rural area. Nowadays views that I enjoyed as a youngster are disappearing, blocked by the ever more rampant greenery.

And it isn't just buddleia. There is also Japanese Knotweed to contend with (multiple instances around here), Himalayan balsam (again a real problem locally) and rhododendron.

 

[Deltafoxtrot87]

I believe that controlled burning was the primary method used in the past? Happy to be corrected though

 

[MCR247]

Disruption on the MML tonight made me immediately think of this thread

x.com

x.com

#EMRUpdate There is a branch on the overhead line equipment near St Albans, disrupting services on these routes:
⚠️London St Pancras -Sheffield/Nottingham
⚠️London St Pancras - Corby

Services delayed up to 20mins. More info: eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk/#updates

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#EMRUpdate Delays and alterations will continue this evening, due to the overhanging tree branch at St Albans. Due to the risk of the tree coming into contact with the overhead wires, a team is en route to make the area safe.

More info: eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk/#Intercity-rou…

 

[londonmidland]

Disruption on the MML tonight made me immediately think of this thread

Internal reports suggest the tree was uprooted from the base. Top heavy with saturated ground, causing it to topple, is what comes to mind.

 

[dosbod stuey]

There's more CO2 in the atmosphere now which vegetation absolutely adores. It's pumped into industrial greenhouses after all.

And we've cut pollution so more sunlight is getting through.

 

[Bikeman78]

No one notices where the vegetation isn’t growing because it’s been dealt with.

Where do you have in mind? Buddleia is taking over the world. The more there is, the more it seeds, and so the cycle continues.

On a recent trip I would say it varies from country to country as you might expect. Switzerland pretty much nothing, Italy closer to the UK but certainly not nearly as bad. In fact nowhere I went to in multiple countries was as bad as here.

I expect they still use stronger weedkiller. My ex's uncle got hold of some weedkiller from abroad. It wipes out everything.

 

[Bevan Price]

There, corrected that for you.

As I gardener I resort to elbow grease. I don't use weedkiller. But if I let something get out of hand then its no longer something I can pull out - then secateurs (worse still a saw) and probably a dig out of the roots. Also happens with plants that have outgrown their space.

For a start weedkiller is unlikely to write of a very well established weed. In the permanent way I see bushes that are becoming the size of trains. I cannot see how these have grown up over one season.

How were weeds kept down or eradicated one hundred years ago on the railways ?.

Sparks from steam locomotives.
And "controlled burns" of lineside vegetation by lineside staff duties that no longer exist.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

A reminder to everyone - It’s the middle of May.

This is peak vegetation growth season. The teams who control vegetation can’t be everywhere at once. No one notices where the vegetation isn’t growing because it’s been dealt with.

It is but this growth is an ongoing compounding of growth year after year from insufficient treatment in prior years. I've also never known so many locations where vegetation has intruded so much into the kinematic envelope that it scrapes along the sides of the trains. It probably doesn't help that its almost impossible to do anything on the infrastructure during traffic hours now but what i find particularly galling is when lines are closed all weekend there is no sign of anybody doing vegetation clearance which of course is beyond p.way staff these days now you need training and ticket to do anything.

 

[physics34]

On a recent trip I would say it varies from country to country as you might expect. Switzerland pretty much nothing, Italy closer to the UK but certainly not nearly as bad. In fact nowhere I went to in multiple countries was as bad as here.

Belgium and Germany arent great either, but it definitely seems to be worse in the uk

 

[ChiefPlanner]

It is but this growth is an ongoing compounding of growth year after year from insufficient treatment in prior years. I've also never known so many locations where vegetation has intruded so much into the kinematic envelope that it scrapes along the sides of the trains. It probably doesn't help that its almost impossible to do anything on the infrastructure during traffic hours now but what i find particularly galling is when lines are closed all weekend there is no sign of anybody doing vegetation clearance which of course is beyond p.way staff these days now you need training and ticket to do anything.

Mindful of this - and back in the 1990's when I was North London Rly operations manager - there was a total block on the "skidpan" St Albans branch for some modest rail replacement work , so I pressed for some vegetation clearance using this operation.

So I sent our on call manager to check on this - after diligent searching he found some old boy in the Bricket Wood area with a handsaw doing some half hearted trimming - "working closely with our contractors" was the buzz word of the time. Really not impressed .....and I let it be known. Not that it made much difference.

We had real problems with the main line 321's which were checked frequently for vegetation in the pan wells - (and specially cleaned out) - so the main line was as bad as the "branches" - for branches.....of course everything was challenged at the delay attribution stage.

 

[Bald Rick]

And of course once the bird nesting season begins your stopped from cutting anything until it's over.

Not so. You just need to make extra arrangements.

Do continental railways suffer the same weed growth?

Yes. The laws of Physics are universal.

I would have thought that it would be possible to develop a road rail vehicle to cut buddleia and other plants from viaducts without great cost.

the vehicle would need cameras lights and mirrors, also a chainsaw and clamps to secure the tree being cut.

anything, including staff, not attached to the vehicle could be clamped to the track

Cutting it is the easy bit. Getting it away, safely, is the challenge.

Internal reports suggest the tree was uprooted from the base. Top heavy with saturated ground, causing it to topple, is what comes to mind.

Correct. I must say the incident was handled very well and quickly.

Where do you have in mind? Buddleia is taking over the world. The more there is, the more it seeds, and so the cycle continues.

Err, anywhere where vegetation has been removed.

 

[renegademaster]

How dangerous is vegetation on the trackbed actually? It seemed worse in the 90s and no accidents seemed to be caused by it

 

[MCR247]

Internal reports suggest the tree was uprooted from the base. Top heavy with saturated ground, causing it to topple, is what comes to mind.

Fair enough, I was only going off of EMRs twittrr

 

[londonmidland]

Vegetation loves rain and mild weather, which we've had plenty of since winter. Certainly this year, everything seems to have bloomed early, as well as looks very healthy and green. Normally, during hot and dry weather leading up to summer, the grass and everything else seems to slow down in growth and goes yellow and/or dies. The soil also looses its moisture content. Certainly not the case now. There is grass growing through the ballast on well used lines. Something I can't recall happening in the past.

This is the GFS weather model chart, showing the expected precipitation between now and the 9th of June. I wouldn't take it too literal but it does look like we are expecting yet more noticeable amounts of rain. Particularly towards the North West.

 

[Starmill]

I would have thought that it would be possible to develop a road rail vehicle to cut buddleia and other plants from viaducts without great cost.

the vehicle would need cameras lights and mirrors, also a chainsaw and clamps to secure the tree being cut.

anything, including staff, not attached to the vehicle could be clamped to the track

This could work short term but it'd still be necessary to close the area below the cutting. Obviously it also blocks the line for some considerable time so we'd be talking staff working night rates etc.

Also it would rapidly regrow if not treated carefully.

How dangerous is vegetation on the trackbed actually? It seemed worse in the 90s and no accidents seemed to be caused by it

I don't think there's any direct risk from small bushes and shrubs or grasses themselves. The risks are all secondary, like branches obscuring signals or other important sight lines, and making access for maintenance crews more awkward.

It is but this growth is an ongoing compounding of growth year after year from insufficient treatment in prior years. I've also never known so many locations where vegetation has intruded so much into the kinematic envelope that it scrapes along the sides of the trains. It probably doesn't help that its almost impossible to do anything on the infrastructure during traffic hours now but what i find particularly galling is when lines are closed all weekend there is no sign of anybody doing vegetation clearance which of course is beyond p.way staff these days now you need training and ticket to do anything.

To be fair there's real skill in cutting down a tree or safely pruning it. It's a substantial qualification to use a chainsaw in itself. And that's before you need to look at the other hazards like giant hogweed or ticks. General PTS is necessary but certainly not sufficient. The crews doing this work are mostly highly trained. And this isn't a Network Rail thing either, all employers are obligated to have these measures to prevent their staff from being harmed at work.

 

[Peter Sarf]

This could work short term but it'd still be necessary to close the area below the cutting. Obviously it also blocks the line for some considerable time so we'd be talking staff working night rates etc.

Also it would rapidly regrow if not treated carefully.


I don't think there's any direct risk from small bushes and shrubs or grasses themselves. The risks are all secondary, like branches obscuring signals or other important sight lines, and making access for maintenance crews more awkward.


To be fair there's real skill in cutting down a tree or safely pruning it. It's a substantial qualification to use a chainsaw in itself. And that's before you need to look at the other hazards like giant hogweed or ticks. General PTS is necessary but certainly not sufficient. The crews doing this work are mostly highly trained. And this isn't a Network Rail thing either, all employers are obligated to have these measures to prevent their staff from being harmed at work.

The risk from small branches etc is that they get bigger and, being more established, they get bigger faster.

You do not need a chainsaw if the growth has not been allowed to go on for so many years.

There is a price to pay for neglect.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

To be fair there's real skill in cutting down a tree or safely pruning it. It's a substantial qualification to use a chainsaw in itself. And that's before you need to look at the other hazards like giant hogweed or ticks. General PTS is necessary but certainly not sufficient. The crews doing this work are mostly highly trained. And this isn't a Network Rail thing either, all employers are obligated to have these measures to prevent their staff from being harmed at work.

I meant low level vegetation that P.Way would have kept under control in years gone by and whilst plenty of buddleia is getting out of hand it can be dealt with with a decent set of loppers. Yes I get that promotes growth but when its already obscuring signal sightlines or striking the side of the train it needs to be removed and a closed line is an ideal time to get on with it.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I meant low level vegetation that P.Way would have kept under control in years gone by and whilst plenty of buddleia is getting out of hand it can be dealt with with a decent set of loppers. Yes I get that promotes growth but when its already obscuring signal sightlines or striking the side of the train it needs to be removed and a closed line is an ideal time to get on with it.

I am actually of the opinion that if you cut Budleia often enough it eventually runs out of reserves. Same with any weed but tricky with the ones that send out runners horizontally to other peoples gardens etc. It means cutting it as often as possible each time a branch with leaves is appearing. A lot easier to do and probably requiring fewer regular visits if the Budleia has hardly set root in the first place. It leads to the term "nipping it in the bud" and in the railways case things have been left to slide big time I am afraid. We now have more stronger established growth with more seeds to further spread it.

 

[londonmidland]

Quite a few delays to Northern services out of Leeds due to a tree coming into contact with the OLE.

An object caught on the overhead wires between Kirkstall Forge and Shipley means all lines are blocked.

 

[railfan99]

Provided they are tethered, are goats an option for a few areas or just an impractical gimmick?

They may require supervision as no one wants stray animals on main or branch line tracks.

You have limited night windows in the main for maintenance, apart from occasional weekend shutdowns, but goats will 'eat anything'. AFAIK they won't destroy the roots of a plant embedded in ballast though.

This page is dated but an example of an occasional approach overseas:

Vegetation & Biodiversity

Vegetation & Biodiversity

www.metrotrains.com.au

 

[alxndr]

I don't think there's any direct risk from small bushes and shrubs or grasses themselves. The risks are all secondary, like branches obscuring signals or other important sight lines, and making access for maintenance crews more awkward.

Having grass growing in the ballast will affect the drainage, which will also cause problems over time.

I meant low level vegetation that P.Way would have kept under control in years gone by and whilst plenty of buddleia is getting out of hand it can be dealt with with a decent set of loppers. Yes I get that promotes growth but when its already obscuring signal sightlines or striking the side of the train it needs to be removed and a closed line is an ideal time to get on with it.

That still happens where it’s causing a problem for access to equipment, but there’s far too much to make any difference to anything that isn’t directly causing an issue for maintenance.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

There is a price to pay for neglect.

very succinctly stated.

 

[Western 52]

This is neglect, looks awful and gives a poor, unprofessional image of the railway. At Neath Station this morning passengers were commenting on the untidy growth between the tracks.

 

[Snow1964]

I don't think there's any direct risk from small bushes and shrubs or grasses themselves. The risks are all secondary, like branches obscuring signals or other important sight lines, and making access for maintenance crews more awkward.

The problem is if ignore small bushes, before long get big bushes.

Recently I helped sort vegetation and out of control hedges at a local club, and was able to borrow a sthill battery hedge trimmer, it the had optional big all day battery pack, not that we needed it as it chopped through branches upto 16mm with ease, so whole job was done in an hour (although then took team hours to remove all the hedge cuttings). If we had let them get bigger would have been chain saw job which is much higher risk.

There might not be big teams sorting vegetation these days, but they did it with hand tools (scythes, garden shears etc), some of these modern battery tools mean one person can do the work of 20-30 using hand tools.

 

[Starmill]

The problem is if ignore small bushes, before long get big bushes.

Recently I helped sort vegetation and out of control hedges at a local club, and was able to borrow a sthill battery hedge trimmer, it the had optional big all day battery pack, not that we needed it as it chopped through branches upto 16mm with ease, so whole job was done in an hour (although then took team hours to remove all the hedge cuttings). If we had let them get bigger would have been chain saw job which is much higher risk.

There might not be big teams sorting vegetation these days, but they did it with hand tools (scythes, garden shears etc), some of these modern battery tools mean one person can do the work of 20-30 using hand tools.

The reality is that there would be a need for many times the current resources in vegetation management teams if you were to target small bushes. And for three quarters of the year those teams would end up under-utilised. That's not to say there's currently enough resources, but there is a clear need to prioritise where vegetation is removed to where it could be affecting safety.

 

[alxndr]

The problem is if ignore small bushes, before long get big bushes.

Recently I helped sort vegetation and out of control hedges at a local club, and was able to borrow a sthill battery hedge trimmer, it the had optional big all day battery pack, not that we needed it as it chopped through branches upto 16mm with ease, so whole job was done in an hour (although then took team hours to remove all the hedge cuttings). If we had let them get bigger would have been chain saw job which is much higher risk.

There might not be big teams sorting vegetation these days, but they did it with hand tools (scythes, garden shears etc), some of these modern battery tools mean one person can do the work of 20-30 using hand tools.

Unfortunately railway rules means you can't just borrow a battery hedgetrimmer or strimmer. I know because we begged for such tools for ages before it was finally found possible to get us trained on it (by which time I'd moved on).

Buddleia is very soft wood though, and I can cut down a fully grown bush in under 5 minutes with a small folding saw. It's finding somewhere to get rid of the branches and keeping it down once cut that's the problem I've not managed to solve satisfactorily yet.

 

[Peter Sarf]

The reality is that there would be a need for many times the current resources in vegetation management teams if you were to target small bushes. And for three quarters of the year those teams would end up under-utilised. That's not to say there's currently enough resources, but there is a clear need to prioritise where vegetation is removed to where it could be affecting safety.

I don't agree. Little and often is easier than waiting for the weed to become established. Furthermore a weed, like any plant, grows exponentially. Leave it for two years and it requires a lot more work than four or five visits over the same period. The "phrase nipping it in the bud" was derived from what was seen in horticulture as obvious.

Unfortunately railway rules means you can't just borrow a battery hedgetrimmer or strimmer. I know because we begged for such tools for ages before it was finally found possible to get us trained on it (by which time I'd moved on).

Buddleia is very soft wood though, and I can cut down a fully grown bush in under 5 minutes with a small folding saw. It's finding somewhere to get rid of the branches and keeping it down once cut that's the problem I've not managed to solve satisfactorily yet.

There is a lot less rubbish to get rid of if the weeds are got out when they can be pulled out. The sum total of several visits is a lot less rubbish than if you let the weeds get a hold by only doing the job once every few years. Leave them to grow and they grow exponentially and also start producing seeds so the infection spreads.

---

Lastly what message does it send to the users of the railways. It says we don't care about our infrastructure, appearance and so it follows the service is rubbish too.

 

[Starmill]

I don't agree. Little and often is easier than waiting for the weed to become established. Furthermore a weed, like any plant, grows exponentially. Leave it for two years and it requires a lot more work than four or five visits over the same period. The "phrase nipping it in the bud" was derived from what was seen in horticulture as obvious.

Yes and only some plants grow like that. Maybe don't use "obvious" horticulture lore if you're not actually knowledgeable about horticulture.

 

[Brush 4]

But it should still be done for plants that do grow like that........