Via Clapham Junction route valid on Barnehurst to London Terminals Season ticket?

[ecp1603]

Hello,
Hi,

I was wondering if someone could advise me?

I have an enquiry with regards to the validity of my train ticket. I currently have a year season ticket that's Barnehurst to London Terminals (which includes Victoria, Waterloo/Waterloo-East, Vauxhall etc). I usually travel in/out of London Victoria on Southeastern trains, however given that that the last train from Victoria to Barnehurst departs at 20:09, do I have any other routes I can travel from Victoria to Barnehurst after this last train where my season ticket is valid (and ideally without having to pay extra or travel on tube?).

For example am I permitted to travel from Victoria to Clapham Junction (Southern trains), then Clapham Junction to Waterloo (South West trains), then Waterloo-East to Barnehurst (Southeastern)? Is this route is allowed given they are permitted London Terminals (Vic/Wat/Wae) on my route? If I wanted to travel between Victoria and Waterloo the shortest route on national rail trains is via Clapham Junction. Travelling between Vauxhall and Victoria on national rail is also only possible via Clapham Junction.

I have looked at the routing guide and there are easements which involve Victoria, Clapham Junction and Waterloo stations (700013 &700014), my ticket says any permitted route but I assume this isn't applicable to my route?

Also can I break my journey at Clapham Junction for the above route? As one of the staff members at Clj said my ticket isn't valid via Clapham Junction at all. Seems a bit strange as there's no other reasonable national rail route between Victoria and Waterloo (after the last direct train from vic at 20.09) to get me home apart from using Clj (which isn't a London Terminal), which is the shortest route.

Would a changeover of my season ticket to Barnehurst-Clapham Junction be a better option? The season ticket would be £52 extra compared to my current one (full years pass fee).

Thanks!

 

[island]

I am afraid that your ticket does not appear to me to be valid via Clapham Junction, nor is there any train you can use your ticket on out of Victoria after the 2009 or on a Sunday. A changeover to Barnehurst to Clapham Junction would provide that validity.

 

[maniacmartin]

I agree with island.

am I permitted to travel from Victoria to Clapham Junction (Southern trains), then Clapham Junction to Waterloo (South West trains), then Waterloo-East to Barnehurst (Southeastern)?

There are 3 ways that a route can be valid. You can be on a direct train, it can be a mapped route in the Routeing Guide, or it can be no more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route.

Mapped routes

The appropriate routing points for Barnehurst in this case are Slade Green and Blackheath as the Anytime Day Singles for both these stations to London is less than or equal to the fare from Barnehurst to London.

Blackheath - LONDON GROUP has maps BR (into London Bridge) and VL (into Victoria via Denmark Hill but not Clapham Junction)

Slade Green - LONDON GROUP has maps CT (via London Bridge) and NK (into Victoria via Denmark Hill but not Clapham Junction)

There are no mapped routes via Clapham Junction.

Shortest routes
Barnehurst to London Terminals by the shortest rail route is 12.25 miles
Barnehurst to London Victoria by shortest rail route is 15.75 miles
The shortest route from Barnehurst to London Victoria via Clapham Junction is 17.5 miles

There is some debate as to whether you can choose which London Terminal to use for measuring the shortest route - if you could choose Victoria then going via Clapham Junction would be allowed. However, National Rail Enquries, which the new Routeing Guide instructions say we should check against, do not allow this on one ticket.

Is this route is allowed given they are permitted London Terminals (Vic/Wat/Wae) on my route? If I wanted to travel between Victoria and Waterloo the shortest route on national rail trains is via Clapham Junction. Travelling between Vauxhall and Victoria on national rail is also only possible via Clapham Junction.

You are allowed to travel within a station group (ie LONDON GROUP) like this, however you can't leave the group and go via a non-member such as Clapham Junction or Farringdon to then go back in.

I have looked at the routing guide and there are easements which involve Victoria, Clapham Junction and Waterloo stations (700013 &700014), my ticket says any permitted route but I assume this isn't applicable to my route?

These easements concern doubling back between Clapham Junction and Victoria, however as your ticket likely isn't valid into Victoria, I don't think they apply.

Also can I break my journey at Clapham Junction for the above route? As one of the staff members at Clj said my ticket isn't valid via Clapham Junction at all.

If and only if Clapham Junction was on a permitted route, you would be able to.

Seems a bit strange as there's no other reasonable national rail route between Victoria and Waterloo (after the last direct train from vic at 20.09) to get me home apart from using Clj (which isn't a London Terminal), which is the shortest route.

There is no requirement for longer routes to become permitted after the last trains on the more direct trains finish for the day.

Would a changeover of my season ticket to Barnehurst-Clapham Junction be a better option? The season ticket would be £52 extra compared to my current one (full years pass fee).

Yes, this ticket would be valid via London Bridge, Waterloo East, Waterloo and Victoria. and NRE's journey planner allows travel via Victoria. However you would lose validity into Cannon St, Charing Cross, Blackfriars etc as you couldn't construct a permitted route to Clapham Junction via them that didn't double back.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Another alternative if you only occasionally need to travel via Clapham Junction is to keep your existing ticket and buy singles from London Terminals to either Wandsworth Road or Denmark Hill. Both are valid via Clapham Junction.

If you have a Gold Card, its £2.05 for an Anytime Day Single, and the train would not need to call at the place where you change trains, under section 19c of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

 

[John @ home]

Would a changeover of my season ticket to Barnehurst-Clapham Junction be a better option? The season ticket would be £52 extra compared to my current one (full years pass fee).

I am surprised that ecp1603 thinks a Barnehurst - Clapham Junction season ticket costs more than a Barnehurst - London Terminals one. The prices I have are:

• Barnehurst - Clapham Junction Route London Not Und 7DS Seven Day Standard Season £46.30
• Barnehurst - London Terminals Route Any Permitted 7DS Seven Day Standard Season £46.30

In each case, a monthly season ticket costs 3.84 times a weekly, and an annual costs 40 times a weekly.

Perhaps ecp1603 is comparing the 2013 price for Barnehurst - London Terminals with the 2014 price for Barnehurst - Clapham Junction.

Additional route validity is available at the same price by, amongst others,

• Barnehurst - Putney Route London Not Und 7DS Seven Day Standard Season £46.30
• Barnehurst - Shepherds Bush Route London Not Und 7DS Seven Day Standard Season £46.30
• Barnehurst - Wimbledon Route London Not Und 7DS Seven Day Standard Season £46.30

 

[island]

These easements concern doubling back between Clapham Junction and Victoria, however as your ticket likely isn't valid into Victoria, I don't think they apply.

Right answer, wrong reason. A ticket from Barnehurst to London Terminals is valid into London Victoria as it would be a through train (and is also a mapped route).

 

[maniacmartin]

Oops - typo fail. I meant between Victoria and Clapham Junction.

 

[ecp1603]

Thank you for taking the time out to reply, I appreciate it!

Quite correct on the fares... For some reason I compared this year and last year's fares (despite knowing there's no difference in fares last year between the two tickets).

I guess my options are to use the changeover, or keep the same ticket and buy additional tickets/use Oyster PAYG. My travel via Clapham Junction would be required 2 times a week there and back, so I may go with the use of the Gold card and go via a short valid route, breaking my journey as necessary.

The changeover would work, however for most non-work related trips I often use Char X, and I would prefer not to lose this, otherwise this would be the ideal situation. I could always get on/off from Waterloo-East, which isn't a million miles away, and is a good compromise between my work and personal life.

Thank you all!

 

[John @ home]

I guess my options are to use the changeover, or keep the same ticket and buy additional tickets/use Oyster PAYG.

Agreed. For more information on changeovers of Season Tickets see our RailUK Fares & Ticketing Guide, particularly Season Tickets, Season Ticket Refunds / Changeovers and Calculation of Refund Value for Season Ticket Changeovers.

It seems to me that the cost of changing your Barnehurst - London Terminals Season Ticket into a ticket with additional validity Barnehurst - Clapham Junction would be negligible, if not zero.

But now we need to consider which replacement ticket would be best for you. From Barnehurst, tickets based on a Seven Day Standard Season ticket price of £46.30 are available via Clapham Jn to a large number of destinations in south and south-west London. Even if ecp1603 only visits these stations once or twice a year, it's worth changing to the most distant destination at this price on the appropriate route. See post #4 above.

The changeover would work, however for most non-work related trips I often use Char X, and I would prefer not to lose this, otherwise this would be the ideal situation.

If you changed your Barnehurst - London Terminals Season Ticket to a ticket with validity Barnehurst - Clapham Junction, you would not lose the ability to travel to Cannon St, Charing Cross, Blackfriars or City Thameslink.

this [Barnehurst - Clapham Junction] ticket would be valid via London Bridge, Waterloo East, Waterloo and Victoria. and NRE's journey planner allows travel via Victoria. However you would lose validity into Cannon St, Charing Cross, Blackfriars etc as you couldn't construct a permitted route to Clapham Junction via them that didn't double back.

I believe that maniacmartin's advice is incorrect here. If changing to a Season Ticket with route validity "London not Und", the National Routeing Guide tells us "If the routeing code is "LONDON", for all journeys via London you will need to cross reference routeing codes applicable "to London" with the code for the "from London" leg of the journey." London Group (for routeing purposes) is therefore an intermediate routeing point for the journey. Therefore the Group Stations rule applies.

GROUP STATIONS
Some stations are grouped together to improve interchange between trains by offering customers access to a wider choice of train services and station facilities. A customer may travel via any station in such a group, including doubling back, provided that the group is on one of the permitted routes between their origin and destination stations. This extended availability is for interchange purposes only and does not apply where the origin or destination stations are part of a group.

A ticket with validity Barnehurst - Clapham Junction would therefore be valid when interchanging at Cannon St, Charing Cross, Blackfriars or City Thameslink. A Season Ticket with validity Barnehurst - Clapham Junction "may be used at intermediate stations, and on any permitted route, unless a route or any other restrictions are specified on the ticket". The only restrictions specified are that travel between origin and destination must be via London Group (for routeing purposes), and that the ticket is not valid on (London) Underground. In particular, there is no restriction on leaving a station to join a train at another station in accordance with National Rail Condition of Carriage 16(i), for example travelling Barnehurst - Charing Cross - (walk) - Victoria - Clapham Junction. The ticket therefore has additional validity to start, break or end a journey at Cannon St, Charing Cross, Blackfriars or City Thameslink.

 

[maniacmartin]

Oops, correct you are. However, I'm not sure if ticket gates and gateline staff will necessarily agree.

EDIT: Actually, I had not even noticed the ticket was route LONDON NOT UND and just assumed it was Any Permitted. This could cause problems if the route between Barnehurst and Clapham Junction contains any track that is not on a permitted route from Barnehurst to London or Clapham Junction to London. Note that there is no cheaper ANY PERMITTED 7DS, so only permitted routes to and from London are valid.

Actually this looks fine. We already know Barnehurst to London is valid into Victoria and London Bridge, and Clapham Junction to London is obviously valid into Victoria and Waterloo

 

[John @ home]

This could cause problems if the route between Barnehurst and Clapham Junction contains any track that is not on a permitted route from Barnehurst to London or Clapham Junction to London.

The vast majority of permitted routes Barnehurst - Clapham Junction will be permitted routes to and from London. We can check the detail when ecp1603 has decided which destination beyond Clapham Junction will be best.

 

[island]

I don't agree that a Barnehurst to Clapham Junction ticket is valid to alight at Charing Cross. The section quoted by John @ home explicitly limits the doubling-back validity to "interchange purposes only".

The intent of this is to permit, for example, a passenger travelling from London to, say, Aspley Guise to use a fast service to Milton Keynes, double back to Bletchley (within the Bletchley group) and continue on a Marston Vale service.

As the ticket is valid for interchange purposes only, and there is no possible interchange at Charing Cross that cannot be made at Waterloo East (as all trains that serve one also serve the other), I therefore conclude the ticket is not valid at Charing Cross.

Of course, in practice whether it operates the gates or is passed by staff is a completely separate question.

 

[John @ home]

Doubling back at Charing Cross with a Barnehurst - Clapham Junction route London Not Und ticket which is not a Season Ticket is allowed by the Group Stations rule, but for interchange purposes only.

Using a Barnehurst - Clapham Junction route London Not Und Season Ticket at Charing Cross does not involve doubling back because Barnehurst - Charing Cross - (walk) - Victoria - Clapham Junction is a permitted route.

If doubling back had been involved, then the additional rights given to Season Ticket holders would have required any restriction, such as using this station for interchange purposes only, to be specified on the ticket. It is not.

If this discussion continues, could mods please break it into a separate thread in order not to confuse the OP.

 

[kieron]

As the ticket is valid for interchange purposes only, and there is no possible interchange at Charing Cross that cannot be made at Waterloo East (as all trains that serve one also serve the other), I therefore conclude the ticket is not valid at Charing Cross.

Just so you know, the Bletchley group has gone. I'm sure there are still some examples, though.

What I was wondering is whether it would change anything for you if the Barnehurst-Clapham Junction ticket was an Any Permitted one instead, with no restriction on travel via London either from the ticket or from any associated routeing points?

i.e. if you don't feel walking the few hundred yards from Charing Cross to Waterloo or Victoria would be allowed given the presence of underground lines in the area, would this allow the route to be used given that you are allowed to use them?

 

[tractakid]

The intent of this is to permit, for example, a passenger travelling from London to, say, Aspley Guise to use a fast service to Milton Keynes, double back to Bletchley (within the Bletchley group) and continue on a Marston Vale service.

This example is no longer permitted in the new Routeing Guide- as Milton Keynes Central has become a routeing point itself.

 

[CNash]

As a confirmation, my season (Slade Green - Guildford) is routed LONDON NOT UND and operates the ticket gates at Charing Cross. I use CHX very occasionally, and believe that it's permitted to interchange there (or at any southern London Group station) in order to travel to Waterloo (main) for my onward train to Guildford. I've broken my journey at Cannon Street under the same reasoning, and my ticket operates the gates there too. I've never been stopped or questioned at any of the termini or while on the train.

If my assumption here is incorrect, I'd be happy to be corrected, but I'd have to ask that if a ticket routed "LONDON" is only valid via certain (reasonable, north-south divide notwithstanding) London Group stations, shouldn't it say so on the ticket or in a restriction code?

 

[ecp1603]

Interesting! As stated it's worth making the most of a valid route if I can go further for a fixed cost. The most viable and useable option would be Barnehurst to Shepherds Bush.

If I can use still use this ticket at Char X then it is the best option and will give me the flexibility that I require. Itappears somewhat disputed if the above route is valid to Char X, but given that CNash is able to do this, it would seem quite likely that the ticket would work.

I'll pop down to the station and ask (maybe this is down to interpretation/knowledge hence the differing opinions) but either way I'll use the changeover and get it done in a few days time.

In the meantime any more opinions are welcome!

 

[John @ home]

I'll pop down to the station and ask

When you do this, point out to the ticket clerk that the "Route" shown on the ticket is "LONDON NOT UND".

Travel to Shepherds Bush is via Clapham Jn, Imperial Wharf, West Brompton and Kensington Olympia.