Victoria Line drivers to stage 'go slow' over noise

[ChristopherJ]

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RMT has called a ‘go slow’ on London’s Victoria Line Tube service. It’s in response to TfL telling drivers to wear ear defenders to cut noise caused by automatic train operation which RMT says breaches legal limits. So drivers will drive manually at speed low enough to cut noise.

The Victoria Line is my local line. Line speed is 80kph with (impressive) platform entrances being 70kph. Running in Coded Manual at lower speeds will cause a dramatic delay to the service, it's the only LUL Line that is timetabled in seconds, not minutes. It's that intensive.

Also, I know a Victoria Line driver who wears ear defenders. He told me LUL management were actively trying to deter drivers from using them despite the noise issue. So it's no surprise the unions have kicked up a stink about this.

 

[Silent]

I think with vic line they have gotten speed and frequency mastered. However now everything else has to be fixed, but then that can't really be done in the short term or even with how intensive the service is. The dramatic delay the lower speeds would cause is a sign that more station platform infrastructure needs to be improved for the Vic Line but, idk if it's easy, the solution that makes most sense to me is them figuring out how to make the rails quieter.

 

[DanNCL]

These people have been operating the same trains in the same tunnels for 15 years, why is this suddenly a problem for the RMT now when it wasn’t for the past 15 years?

Additionally, do the RMT even have the power to do this? Is it not part of the contracts that the trains are to be operated as per the standard procedure (ie automatically) wherever possible?

And what would this actually achieve? Even if they wanted to TFL aren’t magically going to be able to fix the issues in anything remotely resembling a short timeframe.

Looking at the issue, imo the most practical solution would be headsets similar to those that pilots wear which cancel out noise but allow them to hear everything they need to hear including the radio and audible alerts. But that would require the stock to be modified, which probably won’t be cheap. And then it opens the door to the RMT calling for it to be rolled out on all lines, even lines like the Met which are majority above ground.

 

[NewcastleBrown]

Additionally, do the RMT even have the power to do this?

TfL would be entitled to not pay for their labour for the day if it was in breach of contract (partial performance is no performance is the general rule) - but obviously if they did that the drivers would walk out completely, so that is the balancing act for them

 

[Silent]

These people have been operating the same trains in the same tunnels for 15 years, why is this suddenly a problem for the RMT now when it wasn’t for the past 15 years?

Additionally, do the RMT even have the power to do this? Is it not part of the contracts that the trains are to be operated as per the standard procedure (ie automatically) wherever possible?

And what would this actually achieve? Even if they wanted to TFL aren’t magically going to be able to fix the issues in anything remotely resembling a short timeframe.

Looking at the issue, imo the most practical solution would be headsets similar to those that pilots wear which cancel out noise but allow them to hear everything they need to hear including the radio and audible alerts. But that would require the stock to be modified, which probably won’t be cheap. And then it opens the door to the RMT calling for it to be rolled out on all lines, even lines like the Met which are majority above ground.

I think it's more cultural change with covid and everything. People seem to be more outspoken on whether they work too many hours, if a work practice is unhealthy now compared to even just 8 years ago.

 

[Mawkie]

These people have been operating the same trains in the same tunnels for 15 years, why is this suddenly a problem for the RMT now when it wasn’t for the past 15 years?

It isn't "suddenly a problem", the issue has been rumbling along for years, and has worked it's way through the LUL machinery. LU has been very aware of the issue and has (as usual) put its head in the sand and hoped it would go away by itself.

In fact, the Victoria, Jubilee, Northern and Central lines, were balloted in 2019 about this exact issue (which didn't result in any action) so there is nothing sudden about it.

 

[announcements]

However, I think we discussed in another thread recently that the noise levels does seem to be apparently worse in more recent years.

Indeed, I have been using the Victoria line consistently for over a decade and it only seems these past few years where I've really suddenly noticed the noise (and excessive heat). Yes, it's always been there, but it does seem worse somehow.

 

[Lewisham2221]

These people have been operating the same trains in the same tunnels for 15 years, why is this suddenly a problem for the RMT now when it wasn’t for the past 15 years?

Additionally, do the RMT even have the power to do this? Is it not part of the contracts that the trains are to be operated as per the standard procedure (ie automatically) wherever possible?

And what would this actually achieve? Even if they wanted to TFL aren’t magically going to be able to fix the issues in anything remotely resembling a short timeframe.

Looking at the issue, imo the most practical solution would be headsets similar to those that pilots wear which cancel out noise but allow them to hear everything they need to hear including the radio and audible alerts. But that would require the stock to be modified, which probably won’t be cheap. And then it opens the door to the RMT calling for it to be rolled out on all lines, even lines like the Met which are majority above ground.

Posts elsewhere on these forums suggest that the noise levels have got louder in recent years. It sounds (pardon the pun) like LU have acknowledged the issue, but their solution is for drivers to wear ear defenders to protect their hearing, rather than a solution to actually reduce the noise levels. Seems like RMT aren't happy with this solution so, quite legitimately IMO, are instructing drivers to drive manually at slower speeds on health & safety grounds.

 

[announcements]

Presumably the ear defenders still have headphones within them so they can listen to what the controller is saying?

 

[Mawkie]

Presumably the ear defenders still have headphones within them so they can listen to what the controller is saying?

Unless they're different to the ones I use on the Piccadilly Line, then no, there are no headphones inside. Just bog standard ear defenders, that reduce the volume slightly, whilst still allowing you to hear the radio.

 

[D6130]

IIRC, the Northern end of the Victoria Line suffers from quite bad railhead corrugations ('roaring rail'). Unfortunately I don't think anyone has yet developed a tube loading gauge rail grinding train....but perhaps now is the time?

 

[JJmoogle]

IIRC, the Northern end of the Victoria Line suffers from quite bad railhead corrugations ('roaring rail'). Unfortunately I don't think anyone has yet developed a tube loading gauge rail grinding train....but perhaps now is the time?

They have tube guage grinders and they use them, afaik the issue is that you can only grind for so long to treat the problem and many sections of the Victoria and others need far more intensive works and renewals

 

[Dstock7080]

Unfortunately I don't think anyone has yet developed a tube loading gauge rail grinding train....but perhaps now is the time?

Here is one of the Tube gauge rail grinders, which are hired in and not owned by LU:

 

[ChristopherJ]

IIRC, the Northern end of the Victoria Line suffers from quite bad railhead corrugations ('roaring rail'). Unfortunately I don't think anyone has yet developed a tube loading gauge rail grinding train....but perhaps now is the time.

From my experience, the worst for noise is Victoria - Brixton both roads, which is in South London.

The worst part in the north is Finsbury Park - Highbury both roads, apart from that it's tolerable.

I do enjoy getting a clear run over the points at Seven Sisters NB at 80kph, the noise of steel wheel hitting steel points is fantastic.

 

[D6130]

From my experience, the worst for noise is Victoria - Brixton both roads, which is in South London.

The worst part in the north is Finsbury Park - Highbury both roads, apart from that it's tolerable.

I do enjoy getting a clear run over the points at Seven Sisters NB at 80kph, the noise of steel wheel hitting steel points is fantastic.

Fair enough! My memories - as a passenger - are from quite a few years ago....and my memory is not always 100% accurate these days!

 

[announcements]

I don't remember the H&I to Finsbury Park northbound being as bad as the equivalent southbound, but now that you say it, it is quite bad going over the points on the approach to Finsbury Park, followed by very abrupt deceleration, which isn't the most pleasant as a standing passenger!

I do find the Finsbury Park <--> Seven Sisters stretch one of the worst. People also complain a lot about Pimlico to Victoria NB.

 

[zwk500]

Looking at the issue, imo the most practical solution would be headsets similar to those that pilots wear which cancel out noise but allow them to hear everything they need to hear including the radio and audible alerts. But that would require the stock to be modified, which probably won’t be cheap. And then it opens the door to the RMT calling for it to be rolled out on all lines, even lines like the Met which are majority above ground.

Or take the very long term view (I know, I know) and fit PEDs to move to GOA4 unattended operation? The Vic would presumably rank 1 or 2 on the list of easiest to convert, given it's got no above ground stations and is relatively recently constructed.

 

[MaidaVale]

He told me LUL management were actively trying to deter drivers from using them despite the noise issue.

I can't say I've ever come across this at all. Headphones are certainly deterred but in the majority of cases and on the majority of lines, the use of regular ear defenders are not deterred by any level of management or operational grade for that matter.

 

[LLivery]

I don't blame them. The Victoria line is unpleasant enough as a passenger for a few stops, let alone I imagine as a driver. The Environment Agency, ORR or whoever it is, should step in and tell them to sort it. NR drivers can't even annoy neighbours with horns at crossings at night, but apparently you can subject millions of people with ear damaging levels noise every day. And you can say 'expensive' but at the end of the day, it's a basic ask not to subject people to this kind of noise.

This combined with the ridiculous heat in the warmer months and overcrowded platforms at the likes of Victoria, it's dire. The speed is great, the frequency is too, but it needs an upgrade 2.0. Sort out the noise, heat and install PEDs. It feels like something will only be done when a series unfortunate events line up and leads to the worst for several people. And then they'll roll out the 'lessons will be learned' line.

It isn't "suddenly a problem", the issue has been rumbling along for years, and has worked it's way through the LUL machinery. LU has been very aware of the issue and has (as usual) put its head in the sand and hoped it would go away by itself.

In fact, the Victoria, Jubilee, Northern and Central lines, were balloted in 2019 about this exact issue (which didn't result in any action) so there is nothing sudden about it.

I've never had an issue with the Northern until recently, but the Battersea extension isn't great for noise either. As with the Jubilee, the concrete lining of the tunnel seems to make noise even louder.

 

[starlight73]

To avoid making a speculative post, here’s some info about the past project to fit PEDs to the tube:

TfL estimated the cost of platform edge doors (PEDs) for the whole of the Victoria line as £112m in 2015.

Platform Edge Doors (2)

Questions to the Mayor: What is the estimated cost of installing Platform Edge Doors on the Victoria line? Why has this been put on hold?

www.london.gov.uk

An issue encountered is the Victoria line platforms are not wide enough[maybe?], which I think is what TfL means by:

TfL has identified that the current design would adversely affect platform dwell time and therefore reduce capacity.

Another one is the requirement for level boarding (mentioned in this other Mayor’s question time answer)

I do think PEDs are important for safety and a really good feature but the project seems to be paused because of lack of money.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

An issue encountered is the Victoria line platforms are not wide enough, which I think is what TfL means by:

The platforms are not much narrower than some of the Paris Metro platforms which have been fitted with PEDs. Some are even narrower, like Bastille on Line 1, so it's not impossible.

 

[Wolfie]

These people have been operating the same trains in the same tunnels for 15 years, why is this suddenly a problem for the RMT now when it wasn’t for the past 15 years?

Additionally, do the RMT even have the power to do this? Is it not part of the contracts that the trains are to be operated as per the standard procedure (ie automatically) wherever possible?

And what would this actually achieve? Even if they wanted to TFL aren’t magically going to be able to fix the issues in anything remotely resembling a short timeframe.

Looking at the issue, imo the most practical solution would be headsets similar to those that pilots wear which cancel out noise but allow them to hear everything they need to hear including the radio and audible alerts. But that would require the stock to be modified, which probably won’t be cheap. And then it opens the door to the RMT calling for it to be rolled out on all lines, even lines like the Met which are majority above ground.

TfL have a duty of care to their employees. Jeopardising their hearing is a significant breach of that and could cost them dearly. H&S is absolutely core business for a TU. There is an alternative which you will like much less, namely strike action....

Oh and much of the noise likely comes from poor wheel/track interface due to previously deferred maintenance. Thank 14 years of the Tories....

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Nov 2024 ==

However, I think we discussed in another thread recently that the noise levels does seem to be apparently worse in more recent years.

Indeed, I have been using the Victoria line consistently for over a decade and it only seems these past few years where I've really suddenly noticed the noise (and excessive heat). Yes, it's always been there, but it does seem worse somehow.

As a regular Vic line user you are spot on.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Nov 2024 ==

The platforms are not much narrower than some of the Paris Metro platforms which have been fitted with PEDs. Some are even narrower, like Bastille on Line 1, so it's not impossible.

French law and UK law are not the same...

 

[Peter Mugridge]

French law and UK law are not the same...

True, but laws can be amended by Parliament if necessary.

 

[Flange Squeal]

These people have been operating the same trains in the same tunnels for 15 years, why is this suddenly a problem for the RMT now when it wasn’t for the past 15 years?

So what you are saying is if your hearing was potentially being damaged over the course of time as a result of your job (assuming the claim by RMT that the noise breaches legal limits is accurate), you wouldn't want/expect your employer to properly resolve the cause of that? You'd quite happily just carry on having your hearing damaged by alleged illegal levels of noise, right through until the point you fail a medical and potentially lose your job as a result?

 

[LLivery]

Is there a reason this doesn't impact the Piccadilly? Is it speed? I genuinely enjoy using that line.

I don't want to take this off the noise issue, but I was also thinking of Paris. Of course, French law allows driverless on Line 1 and 4, but I believe that with the condition of PEDs. I do wonder if that would be allowed here (twin tracked tunnels may help).

To avoid making a speculative post, here’s some info about the past project to fit PEDs to the tube:

TfL estimated the cost of platform edge doors (PEDs) for the whole of the Victoria line as £112m in 2015.

Platform Edge Doors (2)

Questions to the Mayor: What is the estimated cost of installing Platform Edge Doors on the Victoria line? Why has this been put on hold?

www.london.gov.uk

An issue encountered is the Victoria line platforms are not wide enough, which I think is what TfL means by:


Another one is the requirement for level boarding (mentioned in this other Mayor’s question time answer)

I do think PEDs are important for safety and a really good feature but the project seems to be paused because of lack of money.

I didn't realise they were actively looking at doing it. Thanks. I struggle with the increased dwell time idea, sounds a bit like 'people currently walk right along the edge, risking their safety, but it's a risk we're willing to take as it's good for pax flow'. £112m at 2015 isn't too bad, but of course it's tough if you don't have it.

 

[Bikeman78]

From my experience, the worst for noise is Victoria - Brixton both roads, which is in South London.

The worst part in the north is Finsbury Park - Highbury both roads, apart from that it's tolerable.

I do enjoy getting a clear run over the points at Seven Sisters NB at 80kph, the noise of steel wheel hitting steel points is fantastic.

I virtually never use the Victoria line south of Victoria so that explains why I hadn't really noticed. I do have fond memories of the 1967 stock heading south into Victoria clattering over the points at high speed.

 

[announcements]

I didn't realise they were actively looking at doing it. Thanks. I struggle with the increased dwell time idea, sounds a bit like 'people currently walk right along the edge, risking their safety, but it's a risk we're willing to take as it's good for pax flow'. £112m at 2015 isn't too bad, but of course it's tough if you don't have it.

I don't really understand how they can justify the capital expense of PEDs when there are so many other priorities.

 

[Mzzzs]

Wasn’t there a speed increase of 10% when 2009 came long with the new signalling if so or not wouldn’t 10% be enough to decrease sound a lot ?

 

[Silent]

I don’t know if this is just coincidence but I just used the vic line and it was noticeably slower. Sounded smoother, not as harsh.

 

[aftv]

I don’t know if this is just coincidence but I just used the vic line and it was noticeably slower. Sounded smoother, not as harsh.

it was the same for me both times i used it on Saturday.