Victoria to Uckfield 1960s in the days of steam

[WolvertonWorks]

As children we would visit my aunt and uncle in Sussex every year by train as my Dad worked in the Works and got cheap(er) fares.
Talking with my siblings yesterday the youngest, born in the early '60s, still remembers being scared by a steam train suddenly letting off steam before we boarded.

We think this was probably at Victoria as I remember we would take the train from Wolverton to Euston then northern line to Charing Cross and then change for line to Victoria.

Anyway the question is when did the trains to Uckfield stop being steam?

Thanks

 

[Taunton]

As children we would visit my aunt and uncle in Sussex every year by train as my Dad worked in the Works and got cheap(er) fares.
Talking with my siblings yesterday the youngest, born in the early '60s, still remembers being scared by a steam train suddenly letting off steam before we boarded.

We think this was probably at Victoria as I remember we would take the train from Wolverton to Euston then northern line to Charing Cross and then change for line to Victoria.

Anyway the question is when did the trains to Uckfield stop being steam?

Thanks

Around the end of 1963. I certainly remember steam on the Brighton side in Victoria in 1962 when we travelled to the Continent. Tunbridge Wells West was the principal steam shed for this network of lines, this closed to steam in 1963, with a combination of delivery of the final DEMUs, Class 33 being transferred to work the remaining hauled services, and various lines around being closed, releasing both steam locos and diesels for redeployment.

 

[Magdalia]

We think this was probably at Victoria as I remember we would take the train from Wolverton to Euston then northern line to Charing Cross and then change for line to Victoria.

Or possibly London Bridge?

Anyway the question is when did the trains to Uckfield stop being steam?

Around the end of 1963. I certainly remember steam on the Brighton side in Victoria in 1962 when we travelled to the Continent. Tunbridge Wells West was the principal steam shed for this network of lines, this closed to steam in 1963, with a combination of delivery of the final DEMUs, Class 33 being transferred to work the remaining hauled services, and various lines around being closed, releasing both steam locos and diesels for redeployment.

According to Railway Observer most of the change from steam to diesel on the Oxted/Uckfield line was in the summer of 1963, mainly using BRCW Type 3s released by freight cutbacks on the South Eastern Division.

Tunbridge Wells West and Stewarts Lane lost their steam loco allocations at the end of the 1963 summer timetable.

 

[nw1]

The 1962 CWN from Victoria is available on Timetable World, which gives a fascinating insight into this transitional period.

Allocations for the hourly Oxted-line service (departing at xx09) were as follows for the main part of the day.The majority appeared to go to Tunbridge Wells West, not sure what route. Presumably via East Grinstead? Not sure how Uckfield was worked, shuttle from Oxted?
There were also a few through services from Brighton and Eastbourne.

There seemed to be quite a complex working pattern with many cases of steam in, DEMU out or vice-versa. Perhaps this was to avoid steam during the high peak, when limited capacity was available for loco movements. There appeared to be no steam departures between 1648 and 1848.

1009 Tunbridge Wells West 2 x DEMU, off incoming Brighton service (via Lewes??)
1109 TWW DEMU, off incoming TWW service
1209 TWW DEMU, off sidings. Incoming service is presumably steam, goes out ECS.. (loco not given, but 2 x 4 set is the stock).
1309 TWW DEMU, off sidings. Incoming service is presumably steam, goes out ECS.
1409 TWW Steam, presumably. Formed off expected incoming service.
1509 TWW Steam, presumably. Formed off ECS. Incoming service DEMU, goes out ECS.
1554 Brighton and Eastbourne. Again looks like steam. Route uncertain. Incoming service DEMU goes to sidings.
1648 TWW. Steam, presumably. Off ECS
1709 TWW and Brighton, 3 x DEMU, one unit off incoming service, other two from sidings.

Was this the whole story for London to the Oxted line or were there other off-peak services from London Bridge?

 

[Snow1964]

Around the end of 1963. I certainly remember steam on the Brighton side in Victoria in 1962 when we travelled to the Continent. Tunbridge Wells West was the principal steam shed for this network of lines, this closed to steam in 1963, with a combination of delivery of the final DEMUs, Class 33 being transferred to work the remaining hauled services, and various lines around being closed, releasing both steam locos and diesels for redeployment.

The 3D DEMUs (later class 207), had a rather drawn out introduction (by the standards of the day, although nothing like timespan of some current orders).

Basically Eastleigh carriage works, (where they were being built in 1962-63) was announced for closure, and staff started leaving as they got other jobs. So production slowed and many of the DEMUs were months later than planned.

I suspect (although hopefully someone can clarify) there was probably a few weeks/months where some trains used whatever was available, be it steam loco, diesel loco, or even something like borrowed Hastings DEMU.

From memory the 3Ds had smaller profile due to a restricted tunnel at Tunbridge Wells, so maybe there were route restrictions in the area.

 

[Gloster]

Looking at summer 1964, the basic service seems to be;
XX.06 Victoria-East Grinstead via Three Bridges, with alternate trains continuing to Tunbridge Wells West
XX.09 Victoria-East Grinstead or Brighton via Lingfield.
There was a roughly hourly Tonbridge-Eastbourne.
There was a roughly hourly Oxted-Lewes (or Brighton).
…and there were lots of oddities.

(I think that’s it, but E&OE.)

 

[30907]

There were relatively few through trains to Uckfield back then (winter 63-4).
10.54 and 3.54 Victoria, 4.40 London Br.

Looking at summer 1964, the basic service seems to be;
XX.06 Victoria-East Grinstead via Three Bridges, with alternate trains continuing to Tunbridge Wells West

Not a through service - the xx06 was the Gatwick/Mid Sussex stopper, connecting to the Rail Motor.

The 1962 CWN from Victoria is available on Timetable World, which gives a fascinating insight into this transitional period.

Allocations for the hourly Oxted-line service (departing at xx09) were as follows for the main part of the day.The majority appeared to go to Tunbridge Wells West, not sure what route. Presumably via East Grinstead?

Yes, with a connection via Edenbridge, also to TWW.

Not sure how Uckfield was worked, shuttle from Oxted?

Tonbridge-Brighton, which connected at Groombridge out of the Oxted-TWW Raail Motor (the 1956 interval timetable was well designed).

Was this the whole story for London to the Oxted line or were there other off-peak services from London Bridge?

No, they were peak only.

The 3D DEMUs (later class 207), had a rather drawn out introduction (by the standards of the day, although nothing like timespan of some current orders).
Basically Eastleigh carriage works, (where they were being built in 1962-63) was announced for closure, and staff started leaving as they got other jobs. So production slowed and many of the DEMUs were months later than planned.

An interesting detail that had escaped me, thanks.

From memory the 3Ds had smaller profile due to a restricted tunnel at Tunbridge Wells, so maybe there were route restrictions in the area.

Yes, Tonbridge-Grove Jn was Restriction 1 due to Somerhill Tunnel in particular (which had to be singled for the Hastings electrification, just like Mountfield).

 

[nw1]

There were relatively few through trains to Uckfield back then (winter 63-4).
10.54 and 3.54 Victoria, 4.40 London Br.

Not a through service - the xx06 was the Gatwick/Mid Sussex stopper, connecting to the Rail Motor.

Yes, I was going to say the same thing, I definitely remember 06/36 as being Arun Valley stopping services from examining timetables of this era. The 1962 CWN says the same thing.

As an aside, does anyone else find the style of timetable used by the SR during this era rather confusing to read? It doesn't seem to clearly distinguish between through services and connections.

 

[D6130]

Yes, I was going to say the same thing, I definitely remember 06/36 as being Arun Valley stopping services from examining timetables of this era. The 1962 CWN says the same thing.

As an aside, does anyone else find the style of timetable used by the SR during this era rather confusing to read? It doesn't seem to clearly distinguish between through services and connections.

That was the style of timetable used by all regions of BR during that period....and, yes, it was quite difficult to distinguish been through services and connections. Rail enthusiasts had to examine the timetables quite closely, so I don't know how normal passengers fared.

 

[nw1]

That was the style of timetable used by all regions of BR during that period....and, yes, it was quite difficult to distinguish been through services and connections. Rail enthusiasts had to examine the timetables quite closely, so I don't know how normal passengers fared.

Indeed, I've been looking at timetables since 1982 so am thoroughly familiar with them, and with this earlier style, I often have to deduce things based on my knowledge of the network at the time.

I much prefer the later style, used from the 70s onwards (and in the 60s on the Western Region - wasn't it their format?)

 

[Taunton]

All timetables (Bradshaw was worse) were like that. There was an expectation you always showed your ticket at a staffed platform entrance, and you were then always told knowledgeably where to change. Of course, neither was assured ...

Also, whether there were Through Carriages or not might be variable. A few services at Taunton in the shoulder season detached carriages for a Minehead local. In the winter, change. At peak summer weekends, a through relief running behind the main train. But the same in the timetable.

In truth, the Southern Region in its earlier period did have a more confusing layout than others, seeming to want to get the whole division including every branch line into one table, with acres of empty space and needing to trace columns spread over two pages. No wonder the ABC timetable did well.

 

[nw1]

All timetables (Bradshaw was worse) were like that. There was an expectation you always showed your ticket at a staffed platform entrance, and you were then always told knowledgeably where to change. Of course, neither was assured ...

Also, whether there were Through Carriages or not might be variable. A few services at Taunton in the shoulder season detached carriages for a Minehead local. In the winter, change. At peak summer weekends, a through relief running behind the main train. But the same in the timetable.

In truth, the Southern Region in its earlier period did have a more confusing layout than others, seeming to want to get the whole division including every branch line into one table, with acres of empty space and needing to trace columns spread over two pages. No wonder the ABC timetable did well.

Yes, that's the other thing I've noticed about those old SR timetables, overly big tables not focused on one, or a related group, of routes.

Was the later BR style influenced by ABC?

I say that, as the ABC 1981 timetable on Timetable World is quite similar in style to later BR.

 

[WolvertonWorks]

There were relatively few through trains to Uckfield back then

Thanks for that as I had a memory that we used to have to change somewhere - East Grinstead rings bells.

 

[D6130]

While never having travelled on the line during the steam era, from what I've seen in photographs of the post-war period a lot of the trains on the Uckfield, East Grinstead and Tunbridge Wells West Lines were hauled by LMS Fairburn-designed 2-6-4 tank locos or their Riddles-designed BR Standard cousins....large batches of both of which were constructed at Brighton Works during the 1950-54 period and put straight into service on the Southern Region. I believe that the two remaining preserved examples on the Lakeside Railway - 42073 & 42085 - were from that batch and regularly saw service on the Uckfield line pre-1963.

 

[Gloster]

While never having travelled on the line during the steam era, from what I've seen in photographs of the post-war period a lot of the trains on the Uckfield, East Grinstead and Tunbridge Wells West Lines were hauled by LMS Fairburn-designed 2-6-4 tank locos or their Riddles-designed BR Standard cousins....large batches of both of which were constructed at Brighton Works during the 1950-54 period and put straight into service on the Southern Region. I believe that the two remaining preserved examples on the Lakeside Railway - 42073 & 42085 - were from that batch and regularly saw service on the Uckfield line pre-1963.

A look at BR Database suggests that both might have been seen on the lines early on, although neither was ever allocated to Tunbridge Wells West, but 42085 was transferred off the SR only about a year after being delivered. 42073 took about four years to leave the region, but most of its time was spent at Ashford or Dover, although it could have sneaked onto the lines from time to time. Tunbridge Wells West got a quite number when new, but only seems to have kept five or six at a time; BR Standard 2-6-4T seem to have gradually become more common.

 

[30907]

Thanks for that as I had a memory that we used to have to change somewhere - East Grinstead rings bells.

It would normally have been Oxted then Groombridge, if you couldn't make one of the few through trains.

 

[nw1]

It would normally have been Oxted then Groombridge, if you couldn't make one of the few through trains.

I wonder if, in practice, people would have gone via Tonbridge as it would have only involved one change from London?

The 1963 timetable on Timetable World looks similar to the 1964 pattern mentioned by @Gloster except that there was no Oxted-Uckfield through train, as noted, and the Eastbourne service (about two-hourly) originated from TWW.

A great shame most of this network closed - it would have been quite a characterful group of lines. Some nice planning of connections, too, looking at the 1963 timetable. With population growth in the area since, the lines would have probably become more profitable if they weren't back then.

In particular, the lack of a link from Brighton to mid-Kent is a notable omission from the current network.
They went to the step of modernising the network with DEMUs, so presumably believed the network had a future at that time.

One critique of the network was perhaps the way that, for operational reasons presumably (as there was a depot there), a lot of services terminated at TWW (the Eastbournes in particular) which must have made journeys to and from London awkward. Running the Eastbournes to and from Oxted instead (which appeared to happen in 1964) seemed to make more sense.

There were relatively few through trains to Uckfield back then (winter 63-4).
10.54 and 3.54 Victoria, 4.40 London Br.

I think, if I've understood the 1963 timetable (on Timetable World) correctly, the 1738 London Bridge also conveyed a Brighton via Uckfield portion as did the 1709 (Lewes only) and 1810 from Victoria.

Interestingly, in the two off-peak hours where there was a through service from Victoria, the usual Tonbridge-Brighton diverted to Eastbourne (other Eastbournes originated from TWW) which was a nice touch. As I said it all seemed very well-planned to provide good connections.

 

[30907]

I think, if I've understood the 1963 timetable (on Timetable World) correctly, the 1738 London Bridge also conveyed a Brighton via Uckfield portion as did the 1709 (Lewes only) and 1810 from Victoria.

You are quite right, but by then they were DEMU from the looks of it and the OP mentioned steam.

 

[WesternLancer]

V interesting thread this. Indeed lines that served places that within ten years of closure got earmarked for reasonable housing and population growth and nowadays sees much heavy traffic on some fairly inadequate roads linking up towns once served by these lines.

I have a feeling the services mentioned had a feature in the Hornby Dublo book of Trains possibly 1959 edition. Perhaps to promote and link to their model of the 2-6-4 tank mentioned above.

 

[32475]

For anyone on this particular thread, I can thoroughly recommend ‘Southern Locoman’ by George Hollands. George was based at Tunbridge Wells West shed from just after WW2 until closure in the early’60s. It’s a fascinating read about how he works his way up from cleaner to fireman and then driver. Full of anecdotes about the various characters, locomotives and life on the shed and on the routes from there to Victoria, Brighton etc.
I picked it up second hand recently and by coincidence I started reading it yesterday evening just before I read this thread. The paperback was published by Bradford Barton I’m guessing in the 1970’s

 

[JBuchananGB]

In the 50s and 60s I used to visit my grandparents in Heathfield via the “Cuckoo” line. Originally steam hauled from Victoria, there were definitely diesel on the “Cuckoo” before it closed. After it closed I remember travelling on my own to Uckfield, thence boarding the 192 bus to Heathfield. I didn’t have to change train between Victoria and Uckfield. Before the “Cuckoo” closed we always had to change at Eridge to get to Heathfield.

 

[Gloster]

In the 50s and 60s I used to visit my grandparents in Heathfield via the “Cuckoo” line. Originally steam hauled from Victoria, there were definitely diesel on the “Cuckoo” before it closed. After it closed I remember travelling on my own to Uckfield, thence boarding the 192 bus to Heathfield. I didn’t have to change train between Victoria and Uckfield. Before the “Cuckoo” closed we always had to change at Eridge to get to Heathfield.

The Oxted DEMUs were introduced over the summer of 1962 and all were in service by the start of the winter timetable in September, but it was the beginning of 1967 before all the services, except for a couple of peak-hour ones, were DEMU worked. There had been odd workings by 6S Hastings units from 1959.

 

[WesternLancer]

In the 50s and 60s I used to visit my grandparents in Heathfield via the “Cuckoo” line. Originally steam hauled from Victoria, there were definitely diesel on the “Cuckoo” before it closed. After it closed I remember travelling on my own to Uckfield, thence boarding the 192 bus to Heathfield. I didn’t have to change train between Victoria and Uckfield. Before the “Cuckoo” closed we always had to change at Eridge to get to Heathfield.

I can’t imagine that connecting bus was that frequent. Southdown buses I assume?