Victorian plan for a Scotland-Ireland tunnel

[gg1]

Apologies if this has already been posted, a very interesting article on this slightly bonkers project.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-15187431

Scotland-Ireland undersea rail link plan 'a surprise'



A rail consultant has told of his surprise at finding a Victorian engineer's proposals for a rail link between Scotland and Ireland.

Edinburgh-based David Spaven believed the plans for a tunnel, causeway or an undersea bridge between Stranraer and Belfast were not widely known today.

The plans feature in a new book, Mapping the Railways, Mr Spaven has co-written with author Julian Holland.

It also includes abandoned ideas for light railways on Skye and Lewis.

Published for the The Times by Collins, the book has been described as the most comprehensive collection of British railway maps dating from 1819 to the present day.


The undersea rail link, proposed by engineer Luke Livingston Macassey, came to light during Mr Spaven's research of Victorian-era railway maps and plans.


He said: "The book has been a fantastic journey of discovery for me.


"One of the big surprises was a prospectus for a tunnel under the North Channel between Stranraer and Belfast.


"At first I thought it was a Victorian spoof, but through more research I found the person behind the idea was a competent and well regarded engineer."


According to Mapping the Railways, the proposals published in 1890 were for a rail link using either a tunnel, a submerged "tubular bridge" or a solid causeway.


The engineer said the rail connection would quicken travel between Scotland and Ireland and would also spare people "the horrors of 20 miles in rough seas".

 

[First class]

In terms of freight it would probably be quite successful, direct freight trains to Ireland would drastically reduce the amount of lorries and should reduce congestion and improve CO2 outouts.

Passenger services would probably be under utilised. Scotland-Ireland won't be a huge market, and with cheap flights it would be hard to get people outside of Scotland to use it.

 

[PaulLothian]

Not sure it was any more optimistic than Victorian ideas about linking Great Britain to the continent, which is about twice the distance!

 

[jopsuk]

A channel tunnel sized tunnel, complete with "Shuttle" services, would certainly offer a viable, weather proof, alternative to the ferries. To dent the air market though you'd have to have a Glasgow-Belfast-Dublin High Speed line. Not sure you could ever financially justify it, regardless of how desirable it would seem to many on here.

 

[gg1]

Not sure it was any more optimistic than Victorian ideas about linking Great Britain to the continent, which is about twice the distance!

The North Channel may only be half the distance but it is twice as deep as the English Channel.

 

[150222]

Apologies if this has already been posted, a very interesting article on this slightly bonkers project.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-15187431

That could work today but 120 years ago? Steam trains would have no where to vent the steam. Like early london underground trains only a million times worse.

 

[HSTEd]

Ive read proposals somewhere for overhead wired railways from that era using electrification at 8Hz to enable the rather primitive motors at the time to work properly.

Either way with the tunnel they could probably just run it with a stationary engine at each end and roll stock to the lowest point of the tunnel before hauling it back up the other side.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I remember having these proposals discussed a long long time ago, and can't reliably recall much detail. But what I do seem to be able to recall was that, even in the immediate post-war years, such a bridge or tunnel crossing the Irish Sea was regularly discussed.

As trade and essential supplies in those years were largely distributed by rail and sea, the road network and road vehicles were both a long way off from the standards we enjoy today, so although the period of rapid expansion of the railways had ceased, the road and air alternatives were still immature.

The model of a 'tube' tunnel laid under water was compared with the ever-increasing numbers of cross-Atlantic cables being laid on the sea bed by dedicated ships.

Motive power provided by push-pull cables was still very popular for rail transport on dedicated lines. Electric traction was developing and its future looked bright, though I can't say that it was expected to surplant steam!

All that was unusual about this proposal was that those well-established technologies would have to be scaled-up. The level of optomism about the post-war future ran at such a level that we should be more surprised that such a tunnel was never attempted!

 

[tbtc]

To dent the air market though you'd have to have a Glasgow-Belfast-Dublin High Speed line. Not sure you could ever financially justify it, regardless of how desirable it would seem to many on here.

Given the historic problems with direct services from Belfast to Dublin over the last couple of generations, I shudder to think what would have happened to a prestigious bit of infrastructure like a railway tunnel to Scotland at the height of the "Troubles"

 

[jopsuk]

quite- but a modern project would (hopefully) be another matter.

 

[tbtc]

quite- but a modern project would (hopefully) be another matter.

Absolutely, I should have made clear I was only referring to the Victorian proposal.

 

[Welshman]

That could work today but 120 years ago? Steam trains would have no where to vent the steam. Like early london underground trains only a million times worse.

Just out of interest - didn't they have condensers to condense the steam into the water tanks?

 

[Oracle]

..er yes BUT this did not work in practise. Of course dumping hot water vapour into cold water tanks meant hot water in the tanks!

 

[HSTEd]

..er yes BUT this did not work in practise. Of course dumping hot water vapour into cold water tanks meant hot water in the tanks!

As I understand it the smoke is the killer rather than the steam, since you can probably work out a method of cooling teh water but even if you do, where would the smoke go?

 

[jopsuk]

There's a lot less smoke if you don't have steam mixed into it. On the Circle line this was sort-of-but-not-very-well dealt with by there actually being large parts of the line open to the sky- more back then even. of course, the Victoria embankment was a problem- long stretch of tunnel.

Wonder what journey time you could get, starting from scratch, with a high-speed line running Edinburgh-Glasgow-Stranrear-Belfast-Dublin- could maybe have a couple more intermediate stations for "slow" services?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The North Channel may only be half the distance but it is twice as deep as the English Channel.

There are parts of the North Channel far deeper than the seas in the English Channel which form Beaufort's Dyke. This is positioned in between the two seaports of Stranraer and Larne.

Because of its proximity to the military installation at Cairnryan, Beaufort's Dyke was chosen as the site for disposal of both conventional and chemical weapons after the end of the Second World War. The largest such disposal happened in July 1945, when a total of 14,500 5-inch artillary rockets that were filled with phosgene were disposed of in the deep water.

 

[Badger]

I find it a bit funny that given we're a nation comprised of various islands, our first (and only) mainland to island link was to mainland Europe. I know that's because of the high amount of traffic, but it's still a bit sad that we'd rather link London to France than connect our own country together (Assuming it's the same practicability - as the above post seems to suggest otherwise!)

What about a rail link to the Isle of Wight? They suffer from having 20% lower wages on average than the mainland only a few miles away.

 

[jopsuk]

Um, there's a rail bridge to Anglesey. And Sheppey. That's two mainland-island links, old ones at that. Not very long links, granted, but they count.

For isle of Wight- spur off the (currently freight) line to Fawley, across to Cowes? or a longer one, using the current terminus platforms at Portsmouth and Southsea, burrowing down, an underground station at Gosport and then head for Ryde? Station underneath Esplanade and then surface at St johns Road, bypassing the "problem" tunnel and allowing "full size" trains to run?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

For Isle of Wight, spur off the (currently freight) line to Fawley, across to Cowes?..... or a longer one, using the current terminus platforms at Portsmouth and Southsea, burrowing down, an underground station at Gosport and then head for Ryde Station underneath Esplanade and then surface at St Johns Road, bypassing the "problem" tunnel and allowing "full size" trains to run?

Have there ever been any detailed project costings ever made for a tunnel link to the Isle of Wight from the mainland?

 

[DarloRich]

A channel tunnel sized tunnel, complete with "Shuttle" services, would certainly offer a viable, weather proof, alternative to the ferries. To dent the air market though you'd have to have a Glasgow-Belfast-Dublin High Speed line. Not sure you could ever financially justify it, regardless of how desirable it would seem to many on here.

Agreed - but as part of a proper High Speed Network linking the various large cities of the Britain and Ireland with the European network it could be almost viable - never happen mind!

 

[jopsuk]

I'm not sure a North Channel tunnel would be that much use for connecting anywhere other than Dublin and Belfast to Glasgow and Edinburgh- though a link to the West Coast mainline/a future through route HS line to Scotland would be useful for Belfast- it would still be a very roundabout way from most places to Dublin. A 60 mile Holyhead-Dun Laoghiare tunnel would be an engineering/monetary feat too far I'd fear- even 50 miles St Davids-Rosslare is much longer than the Channel Tunnel's undersea portion (still the longest undersea tunnel, though shotrter overall than the Seikan tunnel). You're into the same ballpark as a "western" channel tunnel running to Cherbourg.

 

[tbtc]

Um, there's a rail bridge to Anglesey. And Sheppey. That's two mainland-island links, old ones at that. Not very long links, granted, but they count

Plus road bridges to the likes of Skye.

 

[Badger]

Yeah you're right. Those islands' channels are practically rivers though compared to some of the crossings which is more what I was thinking of (Mainly, Northern Ireland).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I am not totally sure of the geological factors of the region. Are there any fault lines that could affect a tunnel in that area in between Northern Ireland and Scotland.

 

[Bald Rick]

Plus road bridges to the likes of Skye.

Canvey Island? Hayling Island? Isle of Dogs?

(gets coat)

 

[ReverendFozz]

Am I right in saying there is a few potential areas for an Irish Sea Tunnel

Fishguard-Rosslare
Holyhead-Dún Laoghaire
Stranraer-Belfast
Troon-Larne

I am also certain I once saw an idea that would go from somewhere on the North West coast to Belfast and going to the Isle of Man as well

 

[swt_passenger]

Have there ever been any detailed project costings ever made for a tunnel link to the Isle of Wight from the mainland?

I think there have been, both via Fareham - Gosport - Ryde, and down the Fawley branch.

This news article from 2008 mentioned a tram tunnel Ryde to Gosport, but note that it also mentions a 2002 plan for a rail link.

http://www.thisishampshire.net/news/2156654.solent_tunnel_idea_attacked_by_critics/

A previous £60m plan for a rail tunnel between Portsmouth and Ryde was abandoned in 2002 after a massive public outcry.

It was envisaged trains would travel out on causeways a mile offshore either side of the Solent, before descending into a tunnel running for one mile in the deeper shipping channel.

Googling 'solent tunnel', or 'isle of wight tunnel', brings up a few references. From what I remember (living down here in South Hants) every time it gets proposed there's a massive outcry from islanders who want to maintain their separated lifestyles, complete with all the downsides such as higher cost of living, higher unemployment, etc etc.

 

[Badger]

They complain about polution, but surely an electric tram is better than using giant boats to ferry cars to the island..?

 

[dalmahoyhill]

technically no reason why a you couldnt build a tunnel to N Ireland. The is no particular geological problem as far as i know. The Beaufort channel is deep but the Seikan tunnel goes down 1500ft. THe sea is only 14miles wide between Honshu and Hokkaido, the length is due to the shallow gradients on each side to get the required depth. Mind you it was years late and overbudget and the Shinkansen line is only going to be completed through it in the next 10 years when they extend the line to Hakodate.

AS for a tunnel to the isle of wight, that would be easy, the water is shallow so it would suit immersed tube tunnel. dig a trench, float precast sections and sink them. THey used it for the A5 under the Conwy estuary and all the tunnels in Hong Kong under the harbour. Capital cost wouldnt be huge.

With all of these, technically no problem, financially it probably doesnt stack up

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

AS for a tunnel, technically no problem, financially it probably doesn't stack up

I think that your final comment above says all that needs to be said.

I would also remind you of the munitions that were dumped in the region after the last war and any tunnel route would be well advised to miss these areas in its route.