Video shows possibly homeless man having dirty water poured around him outside Sutton Station

[Tom Quinne]

It appears the staff foolishly attempting to move the chap by pouring water NEXT to him, not over him a very different thing indeed.

I would suggest the area had a sickening odour of urine and/or alcohol which needed cleaning, the make refused to move after multiple attempts this then provoked the staff to attempt direct action, rather foolish putting your job on the line in this fashion.

Love the virtual Signallers calling for him to arrested for assault and to be sacked without further ado !

 

[Antman]

Why is no one helping? Typical English response to gawk on and do nothing.

Poor man!

Somebody was helping him by filming the incident, most people probably wouldn't have noticed what was happening. What would you have done if you were there?

Leaving aside the remarkably stupid actions of the staff here management must be seething. The Brighton Line has just reopened after a very successful replacement bus service operation, which whilst it was initially met with complaints had plenty of praise at the end. Instead of being able to big up the glory of that success they are trending on social media due to these idiots in Sutton!

I think management have acted correctly in suspending the two whilst the matter is investigated.

Not defending their actions at all... nor am I having a got at the over stretched services the BTP offer, but....

How many times had they called the BTP before the staff had had enough of him abusing women and children?

I agree the WHY is very VERY important here. It’s not the approach I’d take, but if someone was sat outside my local station abusing anyone and everyone, and the police hadn’t turned up after a couple of hours (speculation, I know) then I think I’d be at my wits end too

My point is, the WHY is very important here. Their actions were wrong, but I feel the person filming this might be after a bit of twitter fame. The original story was posted by someone who’d seen it on a friends Facebook with no substance to their claims that the staff were aggressive to the person recording.

It just feels like we need more information before we start calling for the staffs heads.

As I mentioned previously I saw a dishevelled looking man being abusive at Catford Bridge on Saturday, staff were very professional and BTP were on scene within 5-10minutes to deal with it, textbook stuff.

 

[DarloRich]

There is absolutely no possible circumstance whatsoever where chucking water on someone or by them such that it would wet their clothes would be even vaguely acceptable.

Could you point out where I have said it is acceptable please?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Reported this morning that 3 members of staff have been suspended pending investigation

 

[sw1ller]

As I mentioned previously I saw a dishevelled looking man being abusive at Catford Bridge on Saturday, staff were very professional and BTP were on scene within 5-10minutes to deal with it, textbook stuff.

My experiences have been different. I’ve reported crimes to them numerous times and have had a response back well in excess of 2 hours. Maybe it’s just in the area I’m in then, but the force seems over stretched and unable to get to call outs quite a lot.

And if I’m mistaken to the “friends Facebook” thing, then I apologise, but the twitter post I saw when this story first came about had no link to it. I also didn’t see the link to it here in this thread.

 

[tsr]

1. Yes, that's exactly where it is
2. Sutton may not be glamorous, but it's hardly a ghetto, and the police exist if they're needed

Re. point 2, it’s a lot worse than you think in some places, and as per the posts quoted below, good luck getting BTP to deal with anything.

I have worked in both railway and non-railway roles in the area, and have friends and many colleagues who live and work in the area, too. There are some very nice suburbs around the edges of Sutton, but equally there are some places where absolutely appalling characters hang out, in droves. Unfortunately Sutton station is definitely not one of the more salubrious bits. It’s not to excuse anybody’s actions, but it is entirely possible, as I said before, that this is not exactly a random incident.

Quite. In that context it's quite serious, as it could well cause death by hypothermia. (If it was midday in August it would be much less so).

"Reasonable force" would have been for the two members of staff to take one arm each and move him as gently as possible (dependent on resistance he put up) to a suitable location. But I'm not sure it is even on railway property, so they might actually have no right to move him at all.

The demarcation of the station and non-station areas has caused local friction for some time. That said, I am obviously not going to endorse railway staff effectively trying to hose away people they don’t like.

Good to see the matter is being dealt with appropriately, why didn't staff just call BTP?

I witnessed an incident at Catford Bridge on Saturday where a dishevelled man was being abusive to passengers and staff who were very professional and BTP were quickly on scene to deal with him.

Very much the exception to the rule. The BTP in the south London area just about have the resources to deal with fatalities and suicidal people. Anything else is not guaranteed (not even the obvious basics like big football match crowds). If I was allowed to post the specifics of officer numbers on duty at any given time, it would raise a lot of eyebrows. The Met and neighbouring forces will also usually only attend to deal with serious disorder or a threat to life.

I don’t think I have ever seen a BTP officer at Sutton...

Leaving aside the remarkably stupid actions of the staff here management must be seething. The Brighton Line has just reopened after a very successful replacement bus service operation, which whilst it was initially met with complaints had plenty of praise at the end. Instead of being able to big up the glory of that success they are trending on social media due to these idiots in Sutton!

A very good point. People seem to be using this incident to hit back at anything that any rail company in the area is broadcasting. I was reading a few of the more vivid comments on Twitter at about 11am. Already, one person said they were not satisfied with Southern’s response after sending no less than four emails (and several tweets, of course), and I have no reason to believe they were the victim...

I think management have acted correctly in suspending the two whilst the matter is investigated.

I don’t think they have a choice, and I am sure procedure will be followed to the letter.

 

[atraindriver]

<deleted>

 

[Antman]

Re. point 2, it’s a lot worse than you think in some places, and as per the posts quoted below, good luck getting BTP to deal with anything.

I have worked in both railway and non-railway roles in the area, and have friends and many colleagues who live and work in the area, too. There are some very nice suburbs around the edges of Sutton, but equally there are some places where absolutely appalling characters hang out, in droves. Unfortunately Sutton station is definitely not one of the more salubrious bits. It’s not to excuse anybody’s actions, but it is entirely possible, as I said before, that this is not exactly a random incident.



The demarcation of the station and non-station areas has caused local friction for some time. That said, I am obviously not going to endorse railway staff effectively trying to hose away people they don’t like.



Very much the exception to the rule. The BTP in the south London area just about have the resources to deal with fatalities and suicidal people. Anything else is not guaranteed (not even the obvious basics like big football match crowds). If I was allowed to post the specifics of officer numbers on duty at any given time, it would raise a lot of eyebrows. The Met and neighbouring forces will also usually only attend to deal with serious disorder or a threat to life.

I don’t think I have ever seen a BTP officer at Sutton....

It may be that there just happened to be a BTP van in the vicinity at the time of course but the Met might have attended if there hadn't been. I suspect there may have been a few calls to police about this individual, it turned out to be nothing more than anti social behavior but it could have turned into something more serious. I don't know whether he was arrested, BTP were talking to him when I got on my train.

 

[Please Explain]

I used to work despatch on the platforms here in my past life and know the individuals involved personally.
One of my ex-colleagues rang me up a couple of hours ago telling me all about this latest drama and I just knew it would be all over the forum...

Firstly, the man on the floor is a nutorious trouble maker at Sutton and Epsom and well known to staff and PAX alike for being a nasty piece of work whose been in and out of jail / on the streets for years, he set fire to his flat.
He's part of a regular group of D&O characters who would come through the station all the time, drinking, doing drugs, kicking off, refusing to leave the station and generally harrasing us as we tried to get on with our work.
Calling BTP was useless as others have mentioned above, they are simply overworked and understaffed south of that river, and could take hours just to come down and remove someone causing a nuisance, there are far more higher priority jobs. -(that's why you see so many "plastic BTP" REO's/RNO's and the dreaded "STM Mafia" everywhere these DAYS..)
In fact the only time we'd ever see real BTP was during revenue blocks with the RPI's/RPO's etc..
That station supervisor who appears in the video, -the guy on the left in the hi-vis -(a decent bloke btw) would usually ring the local met office around the corner on Carshalton Road to get a swift response when things were kicking off.
I seen everything from a mad guy running across the tracks, being chased along platform 1 by the met from the pikey site on the abandoned office block next door there, complete with heli giving chase, while I tried to get the juice rail cut and line blocks, to another "troubled" character who would regularly take great delight in s**ting up the walls and trashing the gents toilets at Epsom..
There was never a dull moment down there...

GTR management were/are totally incompetent and useless too, barring a few.
They would never support us when things went tits up and would be nowhere to be seen during disruption, hiding in their offices while we took dogs abuse from the punters out on the platforms.
There was/still is a culture of bullying, racism, harassment and backstabbing, especially since the whole DOO / ticket office dispute kicked off.

Remember the last train "early lock-up" incident at Sutton a couple of years back that also made the news?!

Anyway, there is two sides to every story and whether what we seen in the video was right or wrong, this guy is most definitely NOT the "innocent victim" that everyone is making him out to be.
From what I heard, him and his mate were being their usual selfs, drinking and causing a bloody nuisance, harassing everyone around the gateline all morning, despite being politely requested to leave the station on numerous occasions.

My thoughts and sympathy are with C and all the team at Sutton during this difficult time.

 

[RichardKing]

Firstly, the man on the floor is a nutorious trouble maker at Sutton and Epsom and well known to staff and PAX alike for being a nasty piece of work whose been in and out of jail / on the streets for years, he set fire to his flat.

He's a convicted murderer as well, according to this Daily Mail article: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...d-intimidating-homeless-man-filthy-water.html

yesterday it emerged that the homeless victim is a convicted killer with a long criminal record who boasts of having spent years in prison

The homeless man is Toby Sawyer, 46, who was found guilty at the Old Bailey in 2000 of stabbing a friend to death amid horseplay during a drinking session.

Sawyer returned to Sutton station yesterday, where an ambulance and a police car turned up to help him. Two police officers, two paramedics, a homelessness charity worker and several well-wishers all pitched in. But he refused all assistance, including a council offer of a week’s free accommodation in a hostel.
.

 

[Master29]

I used to work despatch on the platforms here in my past life and know the individuals involved personally.
One of my ex-colleagues rang me up a couple of hours ago telling me all about this latest drama and I just knew it would be all over the forum...

Firstly, the man on the floor is a nutorious trouble maker at Sutton and Epsom and well known to staff and PAX alike for being a nasty piece of work whose been in and out of jail / on the streets for years, he set fire to his flat.
He's part of a regular group of D&O characters who would come through the station all the time, drinking, doing drugs, kicking off, refusing to leave the station and generally harrasing us as we tried to get on with our work.
Calling BTP was useless as others have mentioned above, they are simply overworked and understaffed south of that river, and could take hours just to come down and remove someone causing a nuisance, there are far more higher priority jobs. -(that's why you see so many "plastic BTP" REO's/RNO's and the dreaded "STM Mafia" everywhere these DAYS..)
In fact the only time we'd ever see real BTP was during revenue blocks with the RPI's/RPO's etc..
That station supervisor who appears in the video, -the guy on the left in the hi-vis -(a decent bloke btw) would usually ring the local met office around the corner on Carshalton Road to get a swift response when things were kicking off.
I seen everything from a mad guy running across the tracks, being chased along platform 1 by the met from the pikey site on the abandoned office block next door there, complete with heli giving chase, while I tried to get the juice rail cut and line blocks, to another "troubled" character who would regularly take great delight in s**ting up the walls and trashing the gents toilets at Epsom..
There was never a dull moment down there...

GTR management were/are totally incompetent and useless too, barring a few.
They would never support us when things went tits up and would be nowhere to be seen during disruption, hiding in their offices while we took dogs abuse from the punters out on the platforms.
There was/still is a culture of bullying, racism, harassment and backstabbing, especially since the whole DOO / ticket office dispute kicked off.

Remember the last train "early lock-up" incident at Sutton a couple of years back that also made the news?!

Anyway, there is two sides to every story and whether what we seen in the video was right or wrong, this guy is most definitely NOT the "innocent victim" that everyone is making him out to be.
From what I heard, him and his mate were being their usual selfs, drinking and causing a bloody nuisance, harassing everyone around the gateline all morning, despite being politely requested to leave the station on numerous occasions.

My thoughts and sympathy are with C and all the team at Sutton during this difficult time.

As I said earlier, there are always two sides. Are the people who defended this guy going to do so readily now the cats out the bag. Not to point score in any way but it does bring to attention the old notion that things aren`t always what they appear and I had a feeling this was one of those cases. As a result those guys may well lose their jobs because of some loser who many saw as a victim. Definitely have sympathy for those workers now. In fact a water cannon on that guy wouldn't`t have been a bad idea...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Someone may be on fire! Kids or adults messing about in the summer.? Your quote "under no possible circumstance whatever throwing water over people is acceptable".

He clearly isn't on fire, and if he was smothering the flames with e.g. a jacket is better than aimlessly chucking water around. It isn't appropriate for staff to be engaging in water fights while on duty. So that's those two gone

As I said earlier, there are always two sides. Are the people who defended this guy going to do so readily now the cats out the bag. Not to point score in any way but it does bring to attention the old notion that things aren`t always what they appear and I had a feeling this was one of those cases. As a result those guys may well lose their jobs because of some loser who many saw as a victim. Definitely have sympathy for those workers now. In fact a water cannon on that guy wouldn't`t have been a bad idea...

It sounds to me like he is mentally ill and perhaps could do with being sectioned. But either way if they were entitled to move him (i.e. it was Railway property) then there are ways to use reasonable force to do so, this is not it.

 

[Master29]

He clearly isn't on fire, and if he was smothering the flames with e.g. a jacket is better than aimlessly chucking water around. It isn't appropriate for staff to be engaging in water fights while on duty. So that's those two gone



It sounds to me like he is mentally ill and perhaps could do with being sectioned. But either way if they were entitled to move him (i.e. it was Railway property) then there are ways to use reasonable force to do so, this is not it.

I`ve deleted that part now as it was from earlier and I forgot to clear from multi quote. My bad. May be they didn`t go about it correctly and perhaps he does need medical help but if we`re going to criticize them then he certainly has to be accountable too, considering they may still lose their jobs as a result of his stupidity.

 

[cactustwirly]

They should be dealt with via the disciplinary process, as well as the Police, for allegedly committing assault while on duty. .

No assault has been committed, it was an awful thing to do, but legally not an 'assault'

 

[Antman]

No assault has been committed, it was an awful thing to do, but legally not an 'assault'

That would be for a court to decide, BTP are investigating the matter as a common assault.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No assault has been committed, it was an awful thing to do, but legally not an 'assault'

You'd be surprised how minor a thing needs to be done to constitute assault.

 

[theking]

Hopefully the workers are not sacked not all homeless people are helpless some are utter.....

Homeless man doused in dirty water by Southern Rail staff is a convicted killer who stabbed his friend to death and served years in prison.

Sawyer returned to Sutton station yesterday, where an ambulance and a police car turned up to help him. Two police officers, two paramedics, a homelessness charity worker and several well-wishers all pitched in. But he refused all assistance, including a council offer of a week’s free accommodation in a hostel.

On at least two occasions paramedics got Sawyer on to a wheeled stretcher and into a waiting ambulance. But both times he climbed out.

And the best bit.

Sawyer told reporters " ‘I done a murder – I’ve been in prison for 18 years. I got out in December. ‘I stabbed my friend. He hadn’t done anything to me before but he didn’t do anything again. I was good with a knife. F*** everyone. I don’t want any help.’

 

[LOL The Irony]

You'd be surprised how minor a thing needs to be done to constitute assault.

You don't even have to touch someone for it to constitute as assault.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hopefully the workers are not sacked not all homeless people are helpless some are utter.....

Two wrongs...

 

[AlterEgo]

The staff were wrong to try to get him to move using (dirty?) water. This much was obvious from the outset.

I held off commenting on this thread until my suspicion was confirmed that the “victim” was a nasty piece of work and impossible to manage. So it turns out he stabbed a man to death, and is a fixture at the station, harassing and abusing people.

I can well imagine how frustrated the staff were. This was probably the only thing they felt empowered to do. It’s still the wrong thing to do, but I hope nobody loses their job over it.

 

[cactustwirly]

You'd be surprised how minor a thing needs to be done to constitute assault.

Nope, the person needs to be put in fear there and then, for it to be classed as an assault.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Sorry but it doesn't matter how awful or horrible the guy was, chucking dirty water near him to try to get him to move was not the right thing to do. Two wrongs do not make a right.

It is perfectly right that the employees in question are suspended whilst it is investigated (that is pretty standard procedure in any business when someone is being investigated for something) and they should be subject to some kind of disciplinary procedure. However anyone suggesting they should lose their job over this is overreacting big time.

 

[Please Explain]

[BANNED]

 

[Bletchleyite]

Nope, the person needs to be put in fear there and then, for it to be classed as an assault.

How do you know he was not? Have you asked him?

 

[yorkie]

It sounds to me like he is mentally ill and perhaps could do with being sectioned. But either way if they were entitled to move him (i.e. it was Railway property) then there are ways to use reasonable force to do so, this is not it.

This is someone who refuses all help.

...to try to get him to move was not the right thing to do....

Problem is, people as obnoxious and defiant as this low-life can refuse to move and no-one can make them move. So that means the area can never get cleaned or whatever needs to be done?

 

[cactustwirly]

You don't even have to touch someone for it to constitute as assault.

Correct, assault is normally a verbal threat, that puts the victim in an immediate fear of danger.
Battery is the actual force on the victim, and both offences together may form ABH.

It's quite possible that he assaulted other passengers, when he was harrassing them, if he threatened them.

 

[Antman]

Sorry but it doesn't matter how awful or horrible the guy was, chucking dirty water near him to try to get him to move was not the right thing to do. Two wrongs do not make a right.

It is perfectly right that the employees in question are suspended whilst it is investigated (that is pretty standard procedure in any business when someone is being investigated for something) and they should be subject to some kind of disciplinary procedure. However anyone suggesting they should lose their job over this is overreacting big time.

Exactly, two wrongs don't make a right and I'm amazed at staff doing something like this with so much CCTV around and nearly everybody has a camera phone.

Whether they should lose their job should be decided at a disciplinary and not on here.

 

[cactustwirly]

How do you know he was not? Have you asked him?

I don't think pouring water puts people in immediate fear, there and then.

Hypothetically, if the staff did threaten to punch him, (for example, not saying they did) then that could be an assault.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is someone who refuses all help.

Being sectioned is not optional, it's effectively a form of arrest.

Problem is, people as obnoxious and defiant as this low-life can refuse to move and no-one can make them move. So that means the area can never get cleaned or whatever needs to be done?

That is the Police's role. If they are not doing their job properly, that's something that needs solving.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think pouring water puts people in immediate fear, there and then.

To a homeless person in cold conditions it could.