Virgin Group explores the return of Virgin Trains as an Open Access operator

[The Middle]

The quantum of services they are after is beyond what we have seen from Open Access previously as well. They are effectively looking to take up Avanti's currently unused rights particularly on the Liverpool corridor.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Virgin has now published a press release detailing the four routes they have applied for:

Virgin Group applies for Open Access rail paths | Virgin

www.virgin.com

The route through the Castlefield corridor will clearly be especially difficult to path. The stop at Golborne is obviously dependent on delivery of the proposed new station (a pet project of Andy Burnham, GM Mayor).

Interesting they chose Golborne instead of Wigan North Western, although Golborne certainly has lots of potential for passengers.

Stopping at "Horwich" is interesting, since Horwich doesn't have a station, there's "Horwich Parkway", for Middlebrook Stadium and Retail Park, or Blackrod, which is closer to the actual town of Horwich. They probably mean Horwich Parkway.

The quantum of services they are after is beyond what we have seen from Open Access previously as well. They are effectively looking to take up Avanti's currently unused rights particularly on the Liverpool corridor.

Almost every service is an Avanti service, just with a couple stops added or lost, the only unique service is the via Bolton service.

 

[thealexweb]

That is an unbelievably good calling pattern. This is the most radical Open Access attempt to ever be attempted. This needs approving in full.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

That is an unbelievably good calling pattern. This is the most radical Open Access attempt to ever be attempted. This needs approving in full.

If this gets approved I'll be happy, it just seems a tad too ambitious.
Presumably (at least long term) they'd get some new EMUs for these, given all routes are entirely under wires (maybe they'd even tilt, it is Virgin).

 

[wilbers]

Typo on that webpage - it has Lockerbie closer to Glasgow than Motherwell in the calling pattern.

 

[The Planner]

The quantum of services they are after is beyond what we have seen from Open Access previously as well. They are effectively looking to take up Avanti's currently unused rights particularly on the Liverpool corridor.

Which Avanti will suddenly start running trains back in as soon as they can.

 

[thealexweb]

Which Avanti will suddenly start running trains back in as soon as they can.

If this gets approved I'll be happy, it just seems a tad too ambitious.
Presumably (at least long term) they'd get some new EMUs for these, given all routes are entirely under wires (maybe they'd even tilt, it is Virgin).

Man Vic-Rochdale isn't wired and no plans to. Some diesel/battery will be needed.

 

[Toby268]

Which Avanti will suddenly start running trains back in as soon as they can.

If this was the pre Covid franchise system yes they probably would. But the truth is they have absolutely no interest anymore now the DFT hold the purse strings and I doubt they will put pressure on to have those services return/2nd Liverpool service start, the latter now having issues with the rolling stock so probably won’t happen any time soon anyway.

 

[Sorcerer]

If this gets approved I'll be happy, it just seems a tad too ambitious.
Presumably (at least long term) they'd get some new EMUs for these, given all routes are entirely under wires (maybe they'd even tilt, it is Virgin).

Unless they somehow get access to a few Pendolinos or Super Voyagers then I doubt they will opt for tilting trains. As an open access operator taking all the risks without any commitments to government I don't see them wanting to spend extra on a tilting train, especially when a good few of these services might not even get approved.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Man Vic-Rochdale isn't wired and no plans to. Some diesel/battery will be needed.

The Rochdale is just an "or", maybe for if they can get to Manc but not to Preston via Bolton (unless they mean they're going to split in P13/14 which would be a nightmare)

 

[Greybeard33]

The Rochdale is just an "or", maybe for if they can get to Manc but not to Preston via Bolton (unless they mean they're going to split in P13/14 which would be a nightmare)

I think they mean that in some hours the trains would go to Rochdale via the Ordsall Chord, in other hours to Preston via Bolton.

 

[The Planner]

If this was the pre Covid franchise system yes they probably would. But the truth is they have absolutely no interest anymore now the DFT hold the purse strings and I doubt they will put pressure on to have those services return/2nd Liverpool service start, the latter now having issues with the rolling stock so probably won’t happen any time soon anyway.

I'll put money on those paths suddenly getting trains in them before Virgin can even source rolliing stock and staff.

 

[baker_06]

I'll put money on those paths suddenly getting trains in them before Virgin can even source rolliing stock and staff.

I don't think they will struggle for staff. If depots are in close vicinity of Avanti's depots, I would imagine existing Virgin staff will want to jump ship and go back.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Virgin has made it clear in their press announcements that the aim is to undercut Avanti.

So, basically now wanting to do, what they wouldn't allow others to try to do, when they were the primary operator on the WCML. Is that right?

 

[Clarence Yard]

They have an uphill task in getting the ORR to approve this scheme as it seems to cut across other’s existing rights to achieve it. That is something the ORR cannot legally approve.

In the absence of those other’s rights being surrendered, Virgin have to prove that there is still room for their trains to run. A tough task.

 

[JonathanH]

I don't think they will struggle for staff. If depots are in close vicinity of Avanti's depots, I would imagine existing Virgin staff will want to jump ship and go back.

They won't be able to offer 'railway benefits' though. The offer to staff would need to make up for the loss of those benefits.

 

[DaveyJones]

So, basically now wanting to do, what they wouldn't allow others to try to do, when they were the primary operator on the WCML. Is that right?

Quite Aggressively So, Yes...

 

[The Planner]

So, basically now wanting to do, what they wouldn't allow others to try to do, when they were the primary operator on the WCML. Is that right?

Moderation of competition forced them to object.

 

[The Ham]

They won't be able to offer 'railway benefits' though. The offer to staff would need to make up for the loss of those benefits.

Depends on the benefits being lost depends on what the cost would need to be, with that depending on the person.

For example someone nearing retirement may opt to swap over if they've got a decent numbers of years of service for their pension to give them a good level in retirement, but they get paid more as many of those who are also needing to swap over needs to cover putting aside more personal pension savings.

 

[Meerkat]

They might make £9m from fares, but stand to get £22m from the other operators... who are publicly-funded, so it's a transfer of money from us to the Virgin empire.

Not just to Virgin, but into the pockets of passengers that Avanti can no longer price gouge

 

[The Middle]

Track access application now online under 'current track access applications' on this page

Sale of access rights - Network Rail

All passenger and freight train operators who want to use our network require a track access contract, dealt with by our customer teams.

www.networkrail.co.uk

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Track access application now online under 'current track access applications' on this page

Sale of access rights - Network Rail

All passenger and freight train operators who want to use our network require a track access contract, dealt with by our customer teams.

www.networkrail.co.uk

To make sure the document can be accessed in its current state for a long time web archve:

Wayback Machine

Lots of info on there, brought the more interesting parts here:

This application is for the operation of four new Open Access Service Groups that will provide new high quality passenger train services between London Euston and:
Preston/Rochdale via Manchester (14 daily services Monday - Sunday);
Liverpool Lime Street (30 daily services Monday to Sunday);
Birmingham New Street (16 daily services Monday to Sunday); and,
Glasgow Central (8 daily services Monday to Sunday).

Note: The "daily services" count both ways (e.g. 1 return trip is 2 services) which had me confused for a moment.
Timetables are there too except for the Glasgow operation (which specifically mentions the cutoff date earlier this month)
(Note: some data may be wrong or badly formatted, I used the feature in excel that allows you to take data from a screenshot)

Service Group VT1 - London Euston and Preston/Rochdale (Via Manchester).​

High quality passenger train services shall operate Monday Sunday at a frequency of 5 daily services each way between London and Preston and 2 daily services each way between London and Rochdale. All services will call at the following stations: Nuneaton, Stoke-on-Trent, Stockport and Manchester Piccadilly. Preston bound services will then call at Bolton, Horwich Parkway, Chorley and Preston; Rochdale services will call at Manchester Victoria and Rochdale.

Preston	05:40​		09:40​	12:40​	14:40​		17:40​
Bolton	06:15​		10:15​	13:15​	15:15​		18:15​
Rochdale		08:09​				16:09​
Manchester Victoria		08:24​				16:24​
Manchester Piccadilly	06:39​	08:39​	10:39​	13:39​	15:39​	16:39​	18:39​
Stockport	06:48​	08:48​	10:48​	13:48​	15:48​	16:48​	18:48​
Stoke On Trent	07:15​	09:15​	11:15​	14:15​	16:15​	17:15​	19:15​
Nuneaton	07:49​	09:49​	11:49​	14:49​	16:49​	17:49​	19:49​
London Euston	08:57​	10:57​	12:57​	15:57​	17:57​	18:57​	20:57​
London Euston	06:37​	08:37​	09:37​	12:37​	15:37​	18:37​	20:37​
Nuneaton	07:34​	09:34​	10:34​	13:34​	16:34​	19:34​	21:34​
Stoke On Trent	08:08​	10:08​	11:08​	14:08​	17:08​	20:08​	22:08​
Stockport	08:44​	10:44​	11:44​	14:44​	17:44​	20:44​	22:44​
Manchester Piccadilly	08:59​	10:59​	11:59​	14:59​	17:59​	20:59​	22:59​
Manchester Victoria		11:14​					23:14​
Rochdale		11:29​					23:29​
Bolton	09:17​		12:17​	15:17​	18:17​	21:17​
Preston	09:45​		12:45​	15:45​	18:45​	21:45​

Service Group VT2 - London Euston and Liverpool Lime Street.​

High quality passenger train services shall operate at a frequency of 15 daily services each way Monday - Sunday, serving stations at: Tamworth, Lichfield Trent Valley, Runcorn, Liverpool South Parkway and Liverpool Lime Street.

Liverpool Lime Street

06:13​

07:13​

08:13​

09:13​

10:13​

11:13​

12:13​

13:13​

14:13​

15:13​

16:13​

17:13​

18:13​

19:13​

20:13​

Liverpool South Parkway

06:24​

07:24​

08:24​

09:24​

10:24​

1124​

12:24​

13:24​

14:24​

15:24​

16:24​

17:24​

18:24​

19:24​

20:24​

Runcorn

06:30​

07:30​

08:30​

09:30​

10:30​

11:30​

12:30​

13:30​

14:30​

15:30​

16:30​

17:30​

18:30​

19:30​

20:30​

Lichfield Trent Valley

07:15​

08:15​

09:15​

10:15​

11:15​

12:15​

13:15​

14:15​

15:15​

16:15​

17:15​

18:15​

19:15​

20:15​

21:15​

Tamworth

07:22​

08:22​

09:22​

10:22​

11:22

12:22​

13:22​

14:22​

15:22​

16:22​

17:22​

18:22​

19:22​

20:22​

21:22​

London Euston

08:30​

09:30​

10:30​

11:30​

12:30​

13:30​

14:30​

15:30​

16:30​

17:30​

18:30​

19:30​

20:30​

21:30​

22:30​

London Euston

06:07​

07:07​

08:07​

09:07​

10:07​

11:07​

12:07​

13:07​

14:07​

15:07​

16:07​

17:07​

18:07​

19:07​

20:07​

Tamworth

07:14​

08:14​

09:14​

10:14​

11:14​

12:14​

13:14​

14:14​

15:14​

16:14​

17:14​

18:14​

19:14​

20:14​

21:14​

Lichfield Trent Valley

07:22​

08:22​

09:22​

10:22​

11:22​

12:22​

13:22​

14:22​

1522​

16:22​

17:22​

18:22​

19:22​

20:22​

21:22​

Runcorn

08:04​

09:04​

10:04​

11:04​

12:04​

13:04​

14:04​

15:04​

16:04​

17:04​

18:04​

19:04​

20:04​

21:04​

22:04​

Liverpool South Parkway

08:11​

09:11​

10:11​

11:11​

12:11

13:11​

14:11​

15:11​

16:11​

17:11​

18:11​

19:11

2011​

21:11​

22:11​

Liverpool Lime Street

08:22​

09:22​

10:22​

11:22​

12:22​

13:22​

14:22​

15:22​

16:22​

17:22​

18:22​

19:22​

20:22​

21:22​

22:22​

Interesting, trains leaving almost exactly half an hour away from the existing Avanti service (I wonder who might've left these paths open)

Service Group VT3 London Euston and Birmingham New Street.​

High quality passenger train services shall operate at a frequency of 16 daily services Monday - Sunday, serving stations at: Coventry and Birmingham International.

Birmingham New Street	07:17​	09:17​	11:17​	13:17​	15:17​	16:17​	18:17​	19:17​	21:17​
Birmingham International	07:28​	09:28​	11:28​	13:28​	15:28​	16:28​	18:28​	19:28​	21:28​
Coventry	07:40​	09:40​	11:40​	13:40​	15:40​	16:40​	18:40​	19:40​	21:40​
London Euston	08:42​	10:42​	12:42​	14:42​	16:42​	17:42​	19:42​	20:42​	22:42​
London Euston	10:10​	12:10​	14:10​	15:10​	20:10​	21:10​	22:10​
Coventry	11:06​	13:06​	15:06​	16:06​	21:06​	22:06​	23:06​
Birmingham International	11:17​	13:17​	15:17​	16:17​	21:17​	22:17​	23:17​
Birmingham New Street	11:27​	13:27​	15:27​	16:27​	21:27​	22:27​	23:27​

Service Group VT4 London Euston and Glasgow Central.​

High quality passenger train services shall operate at a frequency of 4 daily services each way Monday - Sunday, serving stations at: Golborne, Preston, Carlisle, Motherwell, Lockerbie and Glasgow Central. Due to the mandated industry deadline of 20th May 2024, the timetable to support these services is still under development and we have agreed with the team at Network Rail that this will follow in June 2024.

The timetables to support the four service groups above have/are being developed and validated based on the June 2023 timetable using industry recognised timetable development and validation tool ATTUne to demonstrate their credibility.
Consideration has also been given to our understanding that following paths are not currently being fully utilised by the respective operator:
Avanti West Coast: Euston to Liverpool.
Avanti West Coast: Euston to Birmingham New Street.
Northern: via the Castlefield Corridor.
TransPennine Express: via the Castlefield Corridor.

What empty paths are there on the Castlefield Corridor, I thought it was badly congested?

Virgin is proposing to utilise Class 22x rolling stock, with no less capability or performance characteristics than the Class 222 and capable of operating at the MU speeds being implemented on the West Coast.
-different part of the docoument-
Virgin is looking to invest in the development of various proposals that if proven to be deliverable will improve:
4. Environmental impacts procuring auto stop/start technology and bio-diesel options
In addition to these improvements, in the long term and subject to Network Rail s support, Virgin will work with our preferred ROSCO and business partners to introduce new-build high-quality electric rolling stock to replace the 22x fleet on electrified routes once power upgrades have been delivered on the route

Looks like they want some 222s, which they'll then replace with electric trains.

Collected the 3 timetables together to make one, ordered by arrival time in Euston, the layout is based on a typical passenger paper/pdf timetable

Preston

05:40​

09:40​

12:40​

14:40​

17:40​

Bolton

06:15​

10:15​

13:15​

15:15​

18:15​

Rochdale

08:09​

16:09​

Manchester Victoria

08:24​

16:24​

Manchester Piccadilly

06:39​

08:39​

10:39​

13:39​

15:39​

16:39​

18:39​

Stockport

06:48​

08:48​

10:48​

13:48​

15:48​

16:48​

18:48​

Stoke On Trent

07:15​

09:15​

11:15​

14:15​

16:15​

17:15​

19:15​

Liverpool Lime Street

06:13​

07:13​

08:13​

09:13​

10:13​

11:13​

12:13​

13:13​

14:13​

15:13​

16:13​

17:13​

18:13​

19:13​

20:13​

Liverpool South Parkway

06:24​

07:24​

08:24​

09:24​

10:24​

1124​

12:24​

13:24​

14:24​

15:24​

16:24​

17:24​

18:24​

19:24​

20:24​

Runcorn

06:30​

07:30​

08:30​

09:30​

10:30​

11:30​

12:30​

13:30​

14:30​

15:30​

16:30​

17:30​

18:30​

19:30​

20:30​

Lichfield Trent Valley

07:15​

08:15​

09:15​

10:15​

11:15​

12:15​

13:15​

14:15​

15:15​

16:15​

17:15​

18:15​

19:15​

20:15​

21:15​

Tamworth

07:22​

08:22​

09:22​

10:22​

11:22​

12:22​

13:22​

14:22​

15:22​

16:22​

17:22​

18:22​

19:22​

20:22​

21:22​

Nuneaton

07:49​

09:49​

11:49​

14:49​

16:49​

17:49​

19:49​

Birmingham New Street

07:17​

09:17​

11:17​

13:17​

15:17​

16:17​

18:17​

19:17​

21:17​

Birmingham International

07:28​

09:28​

11:28​

13:28​

15:28​

16:28​

18:28​

19:28​

21:28​

Coventry

07:40​

09:40​

11:40​

13:40​

15:40​

16:40​

18:40​

19:40​

21:40​

London Euston

08:30​

08:42​

08:57​

09:30​

10:30​

10:42​

10:57​

11:30​

12:30​

12:42​

12:57​

13:30​

14:30​

14:42​

15:30​

15:57​

16:30​

16:42​

17:30​

17:42​

17:57​

18:30​

18:57​

19:30​

19:42​

20:30​

20:42​

20:57​

21:30​

22:30​

22:42​

London Euston

06:07​

06:37​

07:07​

08:37​

08:07​

09:37​

09:07​

10:07​

10:10​

11:07​

12:07​

12:10​

12:37​

13:07​

14:07​

14:10​

15:07​

15:10​

15:37​

16:07​

17:07​

18:07​

18:37​

19:07​

20:07​

20:10​

20:37​

21:10​

22:10​

Coventry

11:06​

13:06​

15:06​

16:06​

21:06​

22:06​

23:06​

Birmingham International

11:17​

13:17​

15:17​

16:17​

21:17​

22:17​

23:17​

Birmingham New Street

11:27​

13:27​

15:27​

16:27​

21:27​

22:27​

23:27​

Nuneaton

07:34​

09:34​

10:34​

13:34​

16:34​

19:34​

21:34​

Tamworth

07:14​

08:14​

09:14​

10:14​

11:14​

12:14​

13:14​

14:14​

15:14​

16:14​

17:14​

18:14​

19:14​

20:14​

21:14​

Lichfield Trent Valley

07:22​

08:22​

09:22​

10:22​

11:22​

12:22​

13:22​

14:22​

15:22​

16:22​

17:22​

18:22​

19:22​

20:22​

21:22​

Runcorn

08:04​

09:04​

10:04​

11:04​

12:04​

13:04​

14:04​

15:04​

16:04​

17:04​

18:04​

19:04​

20:04​

21:04​

22:04​

Liverpool South Parkway

08:11​

09:11​

10:11​

11:11​

12:11​

13:11​

14:11​

15:11​

16:11​

17:11​

18:11​

19:11​

20:11​

21:11​

22:11​

Liverpool Lime Street

08:22​

09:22​

10:22​

11:22​

12:22​

13:22​

14:22​

15:22​

16:22​

17:22​

18:22​

19:22​

20:22​

21:22​

22:22​

Stoke On Trent

08:08​

10:08​

11:08​

14:08​

17:08​

20:08​

22:08​

Stockport

08:44​

10:44​

11:44​

14:44​

17:44​

20:44​

22:44​

Manchester Piccadilly

08:59​

10:59​

11:59​

14:59​

17:59​

20:59​

22:59​

Manchester Victoria

11:14​

23:14​

Rochdale

11:29​

23:29​

Bolton

09:17​

12:17​

15:17​

18:17​

21:17​

Preston

09:45​

12:45​

15:45​

18:45​

21:45​

 

[Sorcerer]

Those Liverpool paths definitely look like Virgin are trying to fill the open paths left by Avanti's increasingly unlikely second Liverpool service. Of course this will come with the need to either source an EMU or electric loco that won't be held back by the power supply constraints, use bi-mode or diesel trains to run north of Crewe (which seems like a huge waste), or purchase brand new stock that somehow won't require the power that the 807s do and bypassing the power supply issues. Personally, I would wish for New Pendolinos like the ETR 675 scaled down, but realistically it will probably end up being one of the other scenarios if the applications are approved.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Those Liverpool paths definitely look like Virgin are trying to fill the open paths left by Avanti's increasingly unlikely second Liverpool service.

As will the Piccadilly service.

 

[Toby268]

As will the Piccadilly service.

Avantis Manchester service has been back to 3 trains per hour for some time.

 

[The Planner]

Those Liverpool paths definitely look like Virgin are trying to fill the open paths left by Avanti's increasingly unlikely second Liverpool service. Of course this will come with the need to either source an EMU or electric loco that won't be held back by the power supply constraints, use bi-mode or diesel trains to run north of Crewe (which seems like a huge waste), or purchase brand new stock that somehow won't require the power that the 807s do and bypassing the power supply issues. Personally, I would wish for New Pendolinos like the ETR 675 scaled down, but realistically it will probably end up being one of the other scenarios if the applications are approved.

As will the Piccadilly service.

As I posted on Saturday, Avanti will suddenly find the urge to fill those paths.

 

[Toby268]

As I posted on Saturday, Avanti will suddenly find the urge to fill those paths.

I do think with all of the 807s on their way it would be incredibly silly not for them to run the 2nd Liverpool, but staffing is no where near at adequate levels so it wouldn’t be happening any time soon.

 

[Greybeard33]

The eastbound path through the Castlefield corridor appears to conflict with the path of the Northern CLC stopper from Castlefield Jn into Oxford Road, with risk of delay to the following EMR Liverpool to Norwich.

The westbound path through the corridor is sandwiched between the Northern Chat Moss stopper and the Northern Airport to Blackpool, both of which call at both Oxford Road and Deansgate. At Castlefield Jn it appears to conflict with the path of the TPE Liverpool to Cleethorpes, which crosses the junction between the two Northern services.

These paths, neither of which is an unused Northern or TPE path, would seem to undermine the work of the Manchester Task Force by increasing the quanta of services through Castlefield, thereby putting punctuality performance at risk.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

The eastbound path through the Castlefield corridor appears to conflict with the path of the Northern CLC stopper from Castlefield Jn into Oxford Road, with risk of delay to the following EMR Liverpool to Norwich.

The westbound path through the corridor is sandwiched between the Northern Chat Moss stopper and the Northern Airport to Blackpool, both of which call at both Oxford Road and Deansgate. At Castlefield Jn it appears to conflict with the path of the TPE Liverpool to Cleethorpes, which crosses the junction between the two Northern services.

These paths, neither of which is an unused Northern or TPE path, would seem to undermine the work of the Manchester Task Force by increasing the quanta of services through Castlefield, thereby putting punctuality performance at risk.

Given they don't seem to be interested in stopping there, I wonder if they'd be able to overtake at Oxford Road

 

[Philip]

Given they don't seem to be interested in stopping there, I wonder if they'd be able to overtake at Oxford Road

There'd be nothing to overtake as it stands, as the Liverpool via Chat Moss leaves Oxford Road at :57; the Virgin service isn't scheduled to leave Piccadilly until :59. If they held the Liverpool at Oxford Rd until the Virgin service had overtaken it, it wouldn't be allowed to leave until :04 and thereby would conflict with the :06 Blackpool.